Is modesty relative?

[PerfectTiming]

I understand that we are to show modesty and dress in a modest and decent way, could it be argued that what is modest is relative? Is what is modest and appropriate culture-dependent?

I was reading a thread about a member asking if the FHC dress her daughter wanted was appropriate and I read several responses that gave the opinion that shoulders should be covered, especially in church. I found this interesting because I was baptised at 12 in Brazil (I am half Brazilian) and I wore an asymmetrical dress that only covered one shoulder. This made me wonder if perhaps modesty is relative to the standards of the culture you live in. I know there are ways people would dress in Brazil that are considered modest and acceptable there that I am sure would not be considered modest or acceptable in other cultures.

Can what is considered modest dress be dependent on our culture or is modesty for Catholics universal?

 

[catharina]

I understand that we are to show modesty and dress in a modest and decent way, could it be argued that what is modest is relative? Is what is modest and appropriate culture-dependent?

I was reading a thread about a member asking if the FHC dress her daughter wanted was appropriate and I read several responses that gave the opinion that shoulders should be covered, especially in church. I found this interesting because I was baptised at 12 in Brazil (I am half Brazilian) and I wore an asymmetrical dress that only covered one shoulder. This made me wonder if perhaps modesty is relative to the standards of the culture you live in. I know there are ways people would dress in Brazil that are considered modest and acceptable there that I am sure would not be considered modest or acceptable in other cultures.

Can what is considered modest dress be dependent on our culture or is modesty for Catholics universal?

Modesty is an absolute, required of all.
Appropriateness is cultural; it grows from commonly-held standards.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

What is considered to be modest does indeed vary from one culture to another. As an example, look at some of the very conservative Muslim cultures, that believe that a woman should be totally covered so that no man can see her at all.

At one time, no woman would even consider entering a Catholic Church without something covering her hair. That was as much a cultural thing, as a religious one. A woman that did come into a Catholic Church without a head covering would have been considered to be very immodest, at a minimum.

When I was quite young, women wore clothing that came to their mid calf. No grown woman one but a “slut” would have worn anything that was any higher than that. Yet, a few years later, dresses were at knee level. Not all that many years later, dresses were at mid thigh, or higher. What was considered modest and acceptable changed with the culture.

Brazil has a culture where women tend to wear much more revealing clothing than they do in most societies. Whether or not your clothing would be considered to be “modest” would depend a great deal on the prevailing culture in that area. If the priest found your costume to be appropriate, I wouldn’t worry about it.

In the USA, wearing shorts, off the shoulder blouses/dresses, etc. is not considered to be appropriate in a church.

 

[catharina]

What is considered to be modest does indeed vary from one culture to another. As an example, look at some of the very conservative Muslim cultures, that believe that a woman should be totally covered so that no man can see her at all.

At one time, no woman would even consider entering a Catholic Church without something covering her hair. That was as much a cultural thing, as a religious one. A woman that did come into a Catholic Church without a head covering would have been considered to be very immodest, at a minimum.

When I was quite young, women wore clothing that came to their mid calf. No grown woman one but a “slut” would have worn anything that was any higher than that. Yet, a few years later, dresses were at knee level. Not all that many years later, dresses were at mid thigh, or higher. What was considered modest and acceptable changed with the culture.

Brazil has a culture where women tend to wear much more revealing clothing than they do in most societies. Whether or not your clothing would be considered to be “modest” would depend a great deal on the prevailing culture in that area. If the priest found your costume to be appropriate, I wouldn’t worry about it.

In the USA, wearing shorts, off the shoulder blouses/dresses, etc. is not considered to be appropriate in a church.

Old Medic - sometimes I have to wonder if we were separated at birth.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

It is definitely relative, and not just to the culture but also to where you happen to be. What is modest at the beach, is not in a mall. What is modest in a swimming pool, is not at Church. That is why there are few hard and fast rules about modesty; you have to use your judgement. Some examples are easy, as those I have given. It is not always so obvious. It is best to err on the side of caution if you are unsure that your clothing is modest. No one ever sinned by be too modest.

I found, as a teen, that what I usually wore to Church at home was not at all appropriate in Rome. I found more recently that the clothing I usually wear to Church now is a good deal more covering and conservative than what most were wearing at the Church close to the beach where we vacation. I preferred to stand out in the latter instance, than in the former.

 

[puzzleannie]

I u
Can what is considered modest dress be dependent on our culture or is modesty for Catholics universal?

until recently, this generation, it was pretty much universal in the Catholic world that a woman’s shoulders be covered in Church, and generally that skirt or dress, not pants, be worn. This was even when rules on head coverings were not enforced. it also used to be universal among almost all those whose weddings were celebrated in ways derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition that dress at weddings be modest, for bride, attendants and guests. That also is a victim of the post modern culture. If any individual here chose any attire for their personal event and it was approved by whoever was in charge, I have no argument or complaint. But I can tell you your daughter will not make first communion, confirmation or have her 15th in this parish with her shoulders bare or with visible cleavage. Sadly I am not in charge of weddings.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

2525 Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion.

 

[Havard]

I don’t understand what makes uncovered shoulders immodest. Short skirts, exposed midriffs, or cleavage are pretty clear to me, but in my mind, shoulders are in the same category as one’s neck or arms.

 

[thirddec]

Its interesting how the debate on modesty always focuses on females wear. But i believe modesty is dressing in clothing that is suitable for the occasion and is not overtly a means of emphasising the physicality of the wearers sex. As in is not designed to draw attention to areas of clear sexual interest. This applies to males and females alike. I also see no reason to be anti the muslim veil except that I see no good reason why in the interests of fairness the men should wear it as well. What exactly does having the women only wearing it say. The same goes for the days when Women in church used to keep their heads covered.

As a sinner who has led a life of lustfullness I do understand what temptations of thought can be elicited from immodest dress and while I don’t blame the wearer , I just wish they had some thought to the problems they create for others when they dress this way.

Love and Respect

 

[beafedor]

I would add to these comments, modesty also depends on where you are on your faith journey and a lot of it is “self awareness” or “self judgment” if that makes sense. The self awareness is progressive and can take time just as conversion of the heart does. It took time for me to realize that something was immodest and sinful in the way I dress. I shed bitter tears over past sins and behaviors that involved (or started with) immodesty. I knew I did not want to go back and I wanted to avoid to create some particular situations that can lead me and others to sin. So now I wear simple hair does, no make up, discreet jewelry items and my long skirts and shirts hide my figure from the public eye. The way I look at people is also more modest and shy. Femininity is important to me and it goes with motherhood and nice modest clothing that neither my husband nor my kids have to be ashamed of. My standards work for me because I am a at certain point in my conversion process.

 

[edwest2]

What is considered to be modest does indeed vary from one culture to another. As an example, look at some of the very conservative Muslim cultures, that believe that a woman should be totally covered so that no man can see her at all.

At one time, no woman would even consider entering a Catholic Church without something covering her hair. That was as much a cultural thing, as a religious one. A woman that did come into a Catholic Church without a head covering would have been considered to be very immodest, at a minimum.

When I was quite young, women wore clothing that came to their mid calf. No grown woman one but a “slut” would have worn anything that was any higher than that. Yet, a few years later, dresses were at knee level. Not all that many years later, dresses were at mid thigh, or higher. What was considered modest and acceptable changed with the culture.

Brazil has a culture where women tend to wear much more revealing clothing than they do in most societies. Whether or not your clothing would be considered to be “modest” would depend a great deal on the prevailing culture in that area. If the priest found your costume to be appropriate, I wouldn’t worry about it.

In the USA, wearing shorts, off the shoulder blouses/dresses, etc. is not considered to be appropriate in a church.

Modesty matters. And who drives fashion? Certainly not the public. The people who push the envelope of what the public finds acceptable are in charge. Bikinis were called immodest. Mini-skirts were called immodest. All you need are enough sophisticates in your corner who judicially include the word prude into discussions along with how Europe is ahead of the US (in decadence), and you’re done. Now, it should be apparent that a lot of singers and actresses have been convinced to be very immodest in public. By who? Their moms?

A Fashion Clique tells us what what to wear, what body shape is beautiful and finds models who fit their standard. According to the Wall Street Journal, the latest trend is the return of the lady - women with waists as opposed to the stick thin starving types of the past.

Modesty protects virtue.

Peace,
Ed