Is Morality Relative?

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I’m running out of stamina in this conversation, so I’m going to choose and respond to the elements of your post which I think are most important to the topic, and ignore the rest, at least for the time being.
every word in any language is going to be brought down to a set of interdefinable set of synonymns that is either wide or narrow in scope. And I am merely proposing that “right” “wrong” “good” “bad” are words that are narrowly definable but which you pretend not to understand.
moral vocabularly is meaningful. An action is right if and only if it is conformable to an objectively binding law of conscience. An action is wrong if and only if it is directly contrary to an objectively binding law of conscience.
So you are telling me you don’t know what “wrong” means because you don’t understand what “conscience” means?
On the contrary, I do have an understanding of moral language, and I have explained it to you in previous posts. What I’m having trouble with, here, is determining how you understand the same moral language.

You have made numerous references to an “objectively binding law of conscience,” and a “moral law that resides in the human conscience.” If by these references you’re appealing to my personal feelings of empathy and social awareness, then sure, I acknowledge that I have such feelings, and occasionally use moral language to express them. But you steadfastly insist that you are not referring to those personal preferences and emotional reactions, but rather to some kind of separate moral reality. Unfortunately, I don’t know what you mean by that, and so I require an explanation—but you claim that is impossible. I do not see how we can resolve this difficulty.
 
On the contrary, I do have an understanding of moral language, and I have explained it to you in previous posts. What I’m having trouble with, here, is determining how you understand the same moral language.

You have made numerous references to an “objectively binding law of conscience,” and a “moral law that resides in the human conscience.” If by these references you’re appealing to my personal feelings of empathy and social awareness, then sure, I acknowledge that I have such feelings, and occasionally use moral language to express them. But you steadfastly insist that you are not referring to those personal preferences and emotional reactions, but rather to some kind of separate moral reality. Unfortunately, I don’t know what you mean by that, and so I require an explanation—but you claim that is impossible. I do not see how we can resolve this difficulty.
It’s been a couple years since I’ve dealt with moral philosophy, so I am not fresh with answers. Ethics is not my focus anyway.

But the best way to approach what I am saying is to just notice the task of distilling conceptual meanings of words that have multiple instantiations in different contexts which philosophers regularly take upon themselves. Plato was the first genius to start this approach, and philosophers in general use these methods constantly. Arguably, it is all we do as philosophers.

“Love” was a good example I gave. We cannot appropriately define it. We can only give instances of it. But we all recognize it immediately when we see it in people’s behavior, and when we undergo the experience of loving and being loved ourselves.

Likewise with “right” and “wrong.” We see their instances in laws, cultural customs, human behavior, and family relations all the time. “Right” and “wrong” are evident in all these practices and spring from an implicit sense that someone should, or should not, have done something differently. Here is a rather simple illustration. Suppose a culture has the two following moral principles:

(1) One ought to treat people with respect.
(2) One ought to always pay one’s debts.

Are there two meanings of “ought” here just because there are two different moral principles within which it is expressed? Or is there only one meaning of the word “ought” that is the same in both moral principles? Sometimes the “ought” may be more or less encumbent on an individual in different moral principles. But the two different moral principles are not using two *entirely different *senses of “ought.” So wherever the two instances of the “ought” partially overlap in meaning in two moral principles, that is the distilled meaning of the word, and that meaning is what makes understanding moral principles–and their applicability to a wide range of actions–possible in every culture. And I contend that this “ought” arises from some kind of universal human conscience. And though not “proven,” this regularly occurring human pattern in behavior is definitely strong evidence for it.

Besides, why would this word “ought” be in the English lexicon if it did not have some obvious meaning consisting of other word-associations with things like expectation, violation, lawlikeness, and duty?

What is interesting to me, is not how much cultures disagree on moral principles, but how much they actually agree. A moral principle concerning Just actions, for instance, may have slightly different twists depending on a culture’s values and mores, but if you try to distill a meaning, you find that each interpretation of it has something to do with fairness and giving someone his appropriate due. For example, one culture can be completely pacificist but materialistic, and another can be completely non-materialistic and very aggressive. So the one might define a Just Action solely as “that action which consists of proportional payment for goods and services rendered.” And the other might define a Just Action solely as “that action which issues punishment to a criminal that is proportional to his crime.” Though both definitions are entirely different, the commonly shared element has something to do with Justice being some kind of quality of proportionality that is expected within the various relationships and transactions between persons. That very well could be one distilled meaning of the moral value of Justice, even though a myriad of different moral principles arise from it.

And I gave a list of 9 or 10 potential moral principles (several posts ago) that are certainly found in the vast majority of all cultures throughout the world.
 
You have made numerous references to an “objectively binding law of conscience,” and a “moral law that resides in the human conscience.” If by these references you’re appealing to my personal feelings of empathy and social awareness, then sure, I acknowledge that I have such feelings, and occasionally use moral language to express them. But you steadfastly insist that you are not referring to those personal preferences and emotional reactions, but rather to some kind of separate moral reality. Unfortunately, I don’t know what you mean by that, and so I require an explanation—but you claim that is impossible. I do not see how we can resolve this difficulty.
Here’s a stupid but good example in my own life that I can recall where I was purely and simply motivated, not by emotions, not by preferences, not by fear of getting caught, not even by any cultural code, but by the very thought that I knew the action was wrong, period.

I was all alone closing up a coffee shop, counting the drawers, the safe, the petty cash, etc. Well, I found the drawer was over by $5. I knew it was mistake left over from a cash transaction earlier in the day because of how everything balanced out in the final count that night. I could just have easily pocketed that 5 dollars and walked, and no one would have known. The customer probably wouldn’t even come back looking for it anyway because whomever lost it, probably just let it go because all of our clientel were very wealthy people in a very rich community. So no one really owned that $5, not the store, not the customer, not even God. I even hated the company I worked for, and the boss was lying cheapskate himself. So who gets the $5?

I briefly reasoned like this, but the sudden thought came over me how dirty, unworthy, cheap, and base that action would be if I did go through with it. And I’m not sure why I felt this at the time because my own moral life was pretty hedonistic anyway, and I was rather pretty selfish about a lot of things as it was. I didn’t even believe in God. But the entire idea of pocketing that 5$ just felt wrong, pure and simple. If I did pocket that $5, I am certain I couldn’t live with myself if I did. The action was just wrong because my conscience was telling me that it WAS wrong. But why was it wrong? I don’t know. It has something to do with human dignity, self-respect, virtue, and the desire to do the morally correct thing pure and simple. So I reported on the spreadsheet “$5 dollars over” in the cash-count. I know that other people have experienced various similar things in this respect.

And I am certain that repentence and true remorse are other qualities associated with committing wrong actions. Of course these moral qualities are typically associated with feelings, but I don’t see how motivation to do the right because it is right, and avoiding the wrong because it is wrong, have anything to do with one’s own feelings about the matter. These kinds of feelings are always a result of violated one’s inner moral conscience, not the cause of one’s doing this or refraining from that. So feelings are not always the moral motivation for moral behavior, sometimes the very principles themselves directly spurn one to act or refrain from acting.
 
But you will notice that my statement is ultimately about my own personal subjective feelings about certain behaviors, AKA my social values.
Given that your morals (your social values) are entirely your own, can you conceive of a situation where you would do anything at all if there was no benefit to yourself? This would include things like helping people because it makes us feel good since feeling good is a benefit.

Ender
 
Given that your morals (your social values) are entirely your own, can you conceive of a situation where you would do anything at all if there was no benefit to yourself? This would include things like helping people because it makes us feel good since feeling good is a benefit.
I help people without sufficient immediate benefit to justify my expense, yes. However, I do not willingly engage in activities which do not in some indirect and economic way serve my general well-being. This seems to be a necessary condition for everyone.
 
Fayle

*Lesbians have the lowest rates of HIV. God must like lesbian sex *

Actually, celibates have the lowest rate of AIDS! 👍 😃

God must prefer celibates to lesbians. 😛
How horrific!!! All those Christians who believe in moral relativity, Their souls burning in hell.:eek::eek::eek:Carlan
 
I help people without sufficient immediate benefit to justify my expense, yes. However, I do not willingly engage in activities which do not in some indirect and economic way serve my general well-being.
Is your decision to choose “A” over “not A” essentially a cost/benefit analysis (for significant issues)? I’m not sure I see a stronger rationale.
This seems to be a necessary condition for everyone.
I don’t think that’s true of religious people - otherwise you wouldn’t have so many of them complain about having to do (or refrain from doing) what they are otherwise disinclined (or inclined) to do.

Ender
 
I help people without sufficient immediate benefit to justify my expense, yes. However, I do not willingly engage in activities which do not in some indirect and economic way serve my general well-being. This seems to be a necessary condition for everyone.
Ender is right. This is a very simplistic reduction of motives, intentions, and means-end reasoning.

I may derive a certain sense of well-being by being thoroughly altruistic to another person, but this doesn’t mean that my own personal satisfaction is my moral motivation for doing it.🤷 You are slipping into **pyschological egoism **here.
 
Is your decision to choose “A” over “not A” essentially a cost/benefit analysis (for significant issues)? I’m not sure I see a stronger rationale.
I do not make individual choices based solely on economic analysis, no. I have a number of motivators which play complex roles. In fact, in some cases they are not completely (if at all) understood.
I don’t think that’s true of religious people - otherwise you wouldn’t have so many of them complain about having to do (or refrain from doing) what they are otherwise disinclined (or inclined) to do.
Well, it seems to me that an action is voluntary only if the actor desires on some level to pursue it. Any voluntary action may therefore be understood as self-serving. But this is a trivial kind of self-service, and hardly worth noticing, except that I hope it clarifies what I meant in my last post.
 
Well, it seems to me that an action is voluntary only if the actor desires on some level to pursue it. Any voluntary action may therefore be understood as self-serving.
This is invalid:

(1) An action X is voluntary only if the agent desires X.
(2) Therefore, action X is self-serving.

Can you please explain why this inference is not invalid? I’m not following.
 
This is invalid:

(1) An action X is voluntary only if the agent desires X.
(2) Therefore, action X is self-serving.

Can you please explain why this inference is not invalid? I’m not following.
I never claimed it was a deductively valid inference. This is natural language, here, not predicate logic.

However, if you do not see what I’m getting at, then consider that the action serves the desire of the actor.
 
I never claimed it was a deductively valid inference. This is natural language, here, not predicate logic.
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uhh…no. :rolleyes: You absolutely need an additional premise if you want it to be true for all cases of desiring. Your’e not exempt from being logical here. You said “therefore” which directly indicates you are trying to offer an argument.
However, if you do not see what I’m getting at, then consider that the **[all?] **action serves the desire of the actor.
Counterinstance: a soldier takes bullet for his friend in a line of fire. The action is not self-serving because the soldier dies.
 
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uhh…no. :rolleyes: You absolutely need an additional premise if you want it to be true for all cases of desiring. Your’e not exempt from being logical here. You said “therefore” which directly indicates you are trying to offer an argument.
Quite false. You are not the first person to lose touch with natural language after learning logical rules. But that’s something you’ll have to deal with on your own.
Counterinstance: a soldier takes bullet for his friend in a line of fire. The action is not self-serving because the soldier dies.
If the action was voluntary, then it served his desire to act.
 
Quite false. You are not the first person to lose touch with natural language after learning logical rules. But that’s something you’ll have to deal with on your own.
lol…as if logic corrupted people’s thinking…sheesh. No, logic is a tool to get your point across to someone who disagrees. It fits like hand-in-glove with natural language. You lose logical syntax, you thereby lose natural language.

You seem like a smart guy. Do I really have to walk you through this?
If the action was voluntary, then it served his desire to act.
Explain. What do you mean by “serve a desire”? You are not making critical distinctions between desires, the act itself, and the goal of an action which gives an account of one’s motives. The soldier doesn’t take the bullet to serve himself, but in order to save his friend. So it is just as intuitively obvious that his action was not “self-serving.”
 
I do not make individual choices based solely on economic analysis, no.
I didn’t mean that as an economic question. I assume when you do something it is with the expectation or hope of a certain outcome and you balance the risk of taking the action with the reward. That is, it is a consequentialist ethic.
I have a number of motivators which play complex roles.
I don’t doubt this but I wonder why. What is the logic of having motivators that might be detrimental to your well being?

Ender
 
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