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rock17
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Tony888 unless you can show how Mormonism is not polytheistic even though they believe in three seperate divine beings as Jim Dandy has shown than i think there is no need for further discussion.
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Tony888
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Jim why are you so caustic today?
Are you LORD OF THE THREAD?
I was not responding to you, if you read the tread and whom I quoted
Now to respond to your attack:
- I’ve nver stated LDS was monotheist, though I believe henotheist works better than Polytheist
- I have stated no muslim or Jew would think the RCC was monotheist
However I will quote mine RCC doctrine and claim “each Catholic male may become a God and rule over their own Mansion, just around the corner from God’s Palace/Throne” That is what happens when you quote mine to construct doctrine.
Cheers
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Telstar
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Did you happen to notice this line, “CHORUS. Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven”
Ummm… when exactly did that happen???
Isn’t he buried in a grave somewhere? I think if he rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven, someone would have put* that* on the front page of some newspaper or something, wouldn’t they?
BTW… my user ID is a reflection of my former life as a dancer, more specifically, 7+ years of tap dancing. I think I can still handle it on the interwebs, even though I can no longer do it IRL.
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PaulDupre
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twopekinguys
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rock17
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Well henotheism is not a Christian trait so where did this doctrine come from because it is not jewish and it was never taught before by any Christ following theologian. Did God change? The God of the OT is the God of the NT.
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ParkerD
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Rainman,
The Book of Mormon could not be clearer in stating the belief in One God. What you and others don’t seem to grasp is that there is such a thing as divine Unity in such a complete and total way that, just as Jesus prayed in His Intercessory prayer, They are One.
Paul wrote about the “unity of the faith”. That becomes the foundation for “the saints” (i.e. members) moving toward what Christ prayed for–all through their own individual free will choice, no force, no “my way is better than your way”, no contention, no division, no “separateness”. Complete unity of will, desires, unselfish love, and love of the highest possible good which is one “most correct and highest good” choice in any given situation. Such a unity is something to be learned and experienced together, through coming to “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”
Neither the Bible, nor the Book of Mormon, nor any scripture speak of “separate” when describing God the Father, His Beloved Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost and rather speak of Them as One God. To enter a use of language that is not in the scriptures in such an important, absolutely vital understanding is to depart from the scriptures and decreases the very object that Christ prayed for–becoming one. It is to pursue a human description of the divine in a way that is non-Biblical and non-scriptural, so it moves diametrically away from what Christ prayed for for His followers and believers. See John 17. (Note: the words “separate and distinct individuality”, in the context of being One God", are used to explain that They have distinct individuality but are One. I would personally prefer, if the words could be understood, to use the scriptural term as is–One God.)
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zaffiroborant
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ParkerD
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Quote (Joseph Fielding Smith):
(1) The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. (2) In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. (3) To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. (4) There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. (5) We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring." (numbers added for below Biblical references)
References:
(1) Matthew 24:45-47; Matthew 25:21, 23; Revelation 21:7
(2) 1 John 3:2, 3; John 17:21-23; Revelation 3:21
(3) Revelation 2:26-27; Matthew 25:21, 23 “joy of thy lord”
(4) Daniel 7:18
(5) Revelation 2:26-27; Matthew 25:21, 23 “jurisdiction over worlds” equals “power over the nations” and “make thee ruler over many things”
But many people will not see these promises as remotely possible, and will say they are not possible (which is self-fulfilling for them) so they are totally conditional promises–conditioned on individual choices and desires and being willing to follow the Son where He leads, because of their desire to follow Him and seek the fullness of His grace to become one with Him as He is One with His Father.
(1) The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. (2) In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. (3) To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. (4) There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. (5) We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring." (numbers added for below Biblical references)
References:
(1) Matthew 24:45-47; Matthew 25:21, 23; Revelation 21:7
(2) 1 John 3:2, 3; John 17:21-23; Revelation 3:21
(3) Revelation 2:26-27; Matthew 25:21, 23 “joy of thy lord”
(4) Daniel 7:18
(5) Revelation 2:26-27; Matthew 25:21, 23 “jurisdiction over worlds” equals “power over the nations” and “make thee ruler over many things”
But many people will not see these promises as remotely possible, and will say they are not possible (which is self-fulfilling for them) so they are totally conditional promises–conditioned on individual choices and desires and being willing to follow the Son where He leads, because of their desire to follow Him and seek the fullness of His grace to become one with Him as He is One with His Father.
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catholic-rcia
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I agree with a lot of what you have written, much of it even appears to be Catholic. What it is lacking is that it is ok to pray to Jesus. He is God. What we can see of God, what we can hear of God the Father. Of course Jesus as a man shows us how to pray to the Father, yet our conversation with Jesus never ceases. Not Just a friend, and of course He is a friend. But for us even more than that. Our Creator, our Lord and our God.
*]We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Jn 14:14; James 1:1-7; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22
*]We have apostolic examples of praying to Jesus: Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24
*]We have necessary inferences of pray to Jesus: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25
Truly follow Him? But not able to pray to Him? Your Creator? This is the separation between us right? (Trinity) Its ok, we are different on different paths. I know God loves you just as much as me.
Have you ever opened a Catholic hymnal? I did one night at Saint Jerome’s Chapel in Logan Utah. You desire Jesus…open it. Go to this link Parker, let it load. This was the first song I saw in a Catholic Hymnal. I was struck when I heard it in the Cathedral in Salt Lake City during my acceptance into the faith. What are the odds? .
youtube.com/watch?v=7RGgS4kyGWI
Here is a song, in prayer to Jesus. Maybe you know it
youtube.com/watch?v=K6fYAiqV-Bs&feature=related
In my faith I can pray to Jesus in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. Nothing could stop me from doing this, nothing in my faith would prevent me from doing this, knowing that when I pray to Jesus I am also praying to my Father in Heaven. My Father in Heaven loves it when I pray to His Son, speak to His Son, Confession to His Son. Because this is how my Father knows I am ok. Precisely why He sent His Son into the world. When I pray to Jesus it is not like speaking to my best friend here on this earth, I am praying to my Lord and My God. My Creator…big difference. Trust me I do not go around praying to my friends. I do pray with them, with Christ, through Christ to the Father. As well as with all the Saints and angels in heaven. Mary, Joseph, the whole Holy family. The communion of Saints. The cloud of witnesses cheering us on.
My Catholic Family is my Family only because of Jesus. We are members of His Body, He being the head of it. Do you really understand that when a Catholic says that? I Love Jesus only because He loves me first, His love in me allows this. I love the Father only because of His love for the father. His love allows this. Without Jesus you your self Parker would not exist. He is your life, your light, your very existence. Give Him this kind of praise. He gave His life for you upon a Cross. My personal relationship with Him allows me to have this relationship with His Father. He is not so much my best friend as He is my very breath. He breaths me and I am good with that. As a Christian I can say Jesus my Lord and My God. This is good. Peaceful, easy.
In Christ
Rich
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ParkerD
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Rich,
John 14:14 is specifically teaching to pray to the Father, in Jesus’ name. Jesus taught this to the apostles and to us.
James was writing about asking God, as in God the Father, just like he had been taught by Jesus Himself.
To “call upon the name of Jesus Christ” is to seek repentance and forgiveness through His atoning grace–for through Him alone may man be saved.
Ephesians 5:19-20 could not be more clear about praying to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. It is specific, direct, and clear.
“Come, Lord Jesus” is John asking for the Second Coming of Christ to actually happen. (Revelation 22:21) This is proper to do.
Paul “besought the Lord”, which is a right thing to do–to ask His help as the Good Shepherd and the Friend He is, and as our perfect Advocate with the Father. Christ’s grace intercedes with the Father, and Christ’s intercessory prayer showed how to pray to the Father. Paul had a relationship with both the Father and the Son, and was clear in these relationships.
Stephen saying “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” acknowledges that Christ was standing on the right hand of the Father, and is the Intercessor and the Redeemer through Whom resurrection will surely come to all mankind.
Hebrews 11:25 shows the intercession relationship very well. “He ever liveth to make intercession for them.” We come unto the Father, in the name of the Son, so that He will make intercession for us.
(Maybe someone will be able to see these connections in these verses.) (Something to wish for.)
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catholic-rcia
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“Maybe someone will be able to see these connections in these verses.) (Something to wish for”
I have already received it in Christ Jesus through my Baptism into Him. Here is the connection that is missing. Jesus is God, the Eternal Son of God, His Word made flesh, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. There was a time in history when he became a human, taking on the form of a slave. After our LORD died on the cross as a sacrifice for your sins and mine, he went back to heaven to reside with His Father. He then gave us the the Holy Spirit, also God, to dwell in every believer to comfort and counsel us. Because all three persons of the Trinity are God, we as Christians (In Christ) can address him in many ways. We can say “Our Father in heaven” or “Dear Lord Jesus” or “Holy Spirit,” We are talking, praying to God. As a Catholic I can see the scriptures in this light, Christ being my light. Nothing will separate me from Him, this deep relationship of love with Him.
This is the connection that you are missing Parker not me. In all sincerity
His Love
Rich
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PaulDupre
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Not to mention that the Book of Mormon reports that the faithful Nephites prayed to Jesus and worshipped Him.
Paul
Just one more example of how the Book of Mormon is an anti-Mormon book.
Paul
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ParkerD
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Here is the link to the chapter where the scene is described when the Nephites prayed to Jesus because He was with them, physically present as the Resurrected Lord:
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/19?lang=eng
If ever we have that same experience of being physically in His presence, face to face, and Him asking us to pray, then the Holy Ghost may inspire us to pray to Him and if that experience is like the Book of Mormon experience, He in turn will pray to the Father for us, showing His intercession, and He will ask the Father that we may be one with Them, just as He had done in His Intercessory prayer as recorded by the apostle John.
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SteveVH
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On this same theme, something else missing from the picture of those who do not believe or understand the Trinity is that where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. When the Holy Spirit dwells in us, the entirety of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are present within us. They are three Persons, but always one God, undivided unity; “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.”
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zaffiroborant
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Nothing in your citations from Matthew or Revelation supports the notion that glorified couples will populate worlds with their offspring.
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ParkerD
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Zaffiroborant,
Parenthood is a joyful experience for some, and provides a meaningful opportunity to understand, in a human way, the kind of joy He has through the growth of His children. “Joy of their Lord” are words that have significant meaning.
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catholic-rcia
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Absolutely, thank you Steve
Parker they prayed to Jesus in the book of Mormon. But I really can’t say that because they never existed.
Jesus never left us, He is always with us. He is with me now. Historically and now. I have a personal relationship with Him. He even helps me write to you.
God Bless
Rich
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catholic-rcia
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Parenthood has been very enjoyablle for my wife and I. Even with all the hard parts.
It has helped us understand love, Gods love. But we do not worship the family, we worship God, the Creator of our family. The Most Holy Trinity is the perfect loving relationship. This is what we are called into to. To all be One in Him, just as Jesus is one with the Father. The Holy family is where we set our sites. To be children of the most hight forever. One God, One family forever. So many to Love, the same way God has always loved us. God is the only being that can truly Love as He is love itself. We share in that love, no possessing it as if it were our own. My children were created for Him not me. I get to share them with Him, learning how to truly love them. His love through my wife and I.
The Most Holy Trinity
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SteveVH
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What does this possibly have to do with with Zaffiroborant’s statement? I’m really trying to follow your logic but you have lost me here. I read each of your references and find nothing that would even remotely lead me to your conclusion that they are speaking of eternal marriage and eternal procreation.
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