Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[Miriam1947]

If that’s what you got from this particular thread, then you need to go back and reread it. What you fail to grasp is the nature of the infinite reality of God: that, although Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one divine essence, they are three distinct persons in a relationship. The divine essence is infinite and utterly transcendant - it is Being itself; our human essence is finite and contingent - that’s why we homo sapiens can only be one person and have only one nature (essence).

You and I can’t share an essence between our two persons because we are finite beings. Yet, the distinction between you and me as persons is just as real as the distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as persons. IMO, the reason some people have such difficulty with the trinitarian doctrine is because they cannot imagine such a being as God actually existing. No wonder, as our imaginations are rooted in the contingency and changeability of our material existence and experiences.

There is nothing unchanging, transcendant, and infinite that exists, or can exist, as a part of the material cosmos. But the trinitarian doctrine is not the product of imagination; it is the product of reason, building upon revelation preserved within the Tradition of the Church and metaphysical truths which entail the necessity of a First Cause which is Being Itself, preserving the material cosmos in existence from moment to moment.

God is both Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and also Being As Such, the First Cause and Prime Mover. As God is immaterial and is not a man (he is not human, not a homo sapiens), God cannot be imagined, but He can be conceived through reason. That is an important distinction that is often missed in these kinds of discussions. One thing that is certainly true is that the anthroporphic God of Mormonism, an embodied male with fingers, toes, nipples, and flowing locks - sitting on a throne somewhere or walking around in white robes - is a philosophical impossibility.

Unless, that is, God is conceived as Mormons imagine him as a being made of matter (and, therefore, subject to the limitations of both time and space (by definition)). But then, that kind of God is in reality just a highly-evolved spaceman (how does he resist the ravages of time and space on his planet, force fields???). Even if that’s all God is, such a conception (which is very easy to imagine - and such an anthropomorphic god is the god of children) still begs the most important question - who/what made God and who/what created the material cosmos (any and all existing universes)?

Hence, Joseph Smith’s implied system of gods (turtles) all the way down within a cosmos that has always just existed. Modern mormonism has distanced itself from this implied system, but that just re-begs the question that Joseph Smith sought to answer with his King Follett discourse.

We now have within Mormon thought an anthromorphic, physical god made of matter, and therefore subjected by categorical necessity to the limitations of time and space, that is also somehow (confusingly and unphilosophically) believed to transcend those limitations (god is imagined by mormons to be a man who is eternal and possess infinite and transcendent power through his priesthood).

The Mormon god is merely a powerful man sitting in a fancy chair or walking about with his wife or wives at his side, on a planet somewhere out there near a distant star named Kolob, who is able to use his priesthood to somehow negate the effects and limitations of time and space - kind of like an entity in a Star Trek episode. The current Mormon conception of God is the true incomprehensible mishmash in this discussion.

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[catholic-rcia]

SteveVH,

I for one really appreciated “Cal Fullerton’s” statement and insight.

What I have gotten from this particular thread,.

Catholics don’t believe Christ’s intercessory prayer had literal meaning,.

Can you explain what you mean here in a short paragraph.

Parker: Catholics don’t believe Christ’s intercessory prayer had literal meaning,.

Just last night at the RCIA we spoke about this very subject. How all our prayers go through Jesus to His Father.

All within the One body of Christ.

I can picture Jesus in the form of a man in un ending prayer to His Father. I see a great beam of light coming down from heaven engulfing Jesus. I see this same light going up to heaven to His Father. One very bright light, One God, un separable. Communication of the Trinity, back and forth. When we pray we enter into this communication as created beings. The Holy Spirit gives us this opportunity.

 

[KathleenGee]

I really invite Mormons to go to their nearest Catholic parish this coming fall, and sign up for Rite of Christian Initiation or in classes for adult education that explain the premises and history of our faith within community to learn what we truly believe.

I was shocked to find out more about how Mormons think of the Catholic Church when I visited the Mormon book store…and then to hear some Mormons deny such teachings.

In the Catholic Church, we tell the truth, we show our teachings and we are open and honest about our Church’s past mistakes.

The other, as stated in another post, is that Sacred Scripture and the Church go together, because the Catholic Church in ancient times discerned with many consecrated souls which materials to put in the Bible, not just one man alledgely having it all.

 

[BrotherJohn7]

Thank you.

I’m going to bow out now. I did not come here to be
converted, nor chastised and berated. I came here
to clarify mis-truths being claimed by people who
either don’t know, don’t care or who otherwise have
some prejudicial axe to grind.

Lefty, you have addressed the argument better than
I am able.

I will leave it at this: judge the validity of the Church
by it’s people. On the whole the members of the
LDS Church are walking the talk. That is what
attracted me - and that is why I’ll stay.

All the best to you -

Just some random questions that come to mind as a result of this erudite discussion:

• If the concept of “Trinity” is so self-evident in the Bible and so critical to our correct understanding of God’s nature, why is the term never used in scripture? Why must we wait until the late second century until we even encounter it (Theophilus of Antioch - and it’s doubtful he understood the term as we do today). Why do we wait more than an additional two centuries for its complete and correct formulation (Council of Chalcedon - A.D. 451)?
• How is it that mere theologians expand upon or correct the doctrine of the Apostles? Can theologians add to the scriptures? And if the defining of the correct concept of Tinity is not the result of theological wrangling (I’d like to see that demonstrated!), then why did its formulation take years and years of discussion to arrive at? Neither Jesus nor His Apostles propounded doctrine in that manner. They spoke as ones having authority. If one known to have that same authority was on the scene at the councils, why didn’t he assert it? Was he unrecognized? How could that be?
• If accepting the concept of Trinity is pre-requisite to being allowed to refer to oneself as a Christian, what do we do with the early apologists for whom Trinitarianism had yet to be fully described? Justin Martyr (d. A.D. 165) and Clement of Alexandria (d. ca. A.D. 215) come to mind. They have been viewed through their writings as believing in two Gods, not three, and have been called by at least one scholar (not a Mormon) as being “binarian” (Justo L. Gonzales, A History of Christian Thought, 3 vols., Abingdon, 1970).
• Anybody got some good scriptures to support the doctrine of an abstract, absolute, transcendent, consubstantial, coeternal unity in trinity existing unknowably and incomprehensibly without body, parts, or passions and outside space and time? You all crack on the Mormons for claiming that some things may have been left out of the Bible. Apparently these clear concepts weren’t, so where are they? Every Evangelical and every Catholic with whom I have ever discussed Trinity finally admits that it is an incomprehensible mystery that must ultimately be accepted by faith. I have no problem with that … until I see Mormons being denigrated for wanting to accept some things from God that are beyond their own mortal minds’ ability to grasp but are nonetheless represented by their critics in crass, offensive ways. We got a double-standard here?
• If Mormons so loathe the Bible (as demonstrated by cherry-picking quotes and disregarding a comprehensive, contextual trreatment of the question), why do they then study the despised document for two of every four years in both their Sunday School courses of study for adults as well as their training of teen-agers? (The four year, repeating cycle of study is Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants. This is the required curriculum for all wards and branches in the LDS church).
• Recent studies of LDS doctrinal development demonstrate that in the 19th century, the preponderance of scriptural citations in sermons by Mormon leaders came from the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. Why do you suppose that would be if Mormons concurrently taught that the Bible was corrupt and of no value?
• Why all the smug, self-satisfied, but totally bogus claims that Latter-day Saints consider the Catholic Church to be the “great and abmoniable church” referred to in the Book of Mormon? Why are none of you “Mormon experts” aware of the fact that that interpretation, along with at least 1067 other assertions, were officially deemed as being doctrinally in error by church president David O. McKay when they first appeared in Bruce McConkie’s book Mormon Doctrine? (For an historical treatment of this issue, see David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, by Gregory Prince and Robert Wright, p. 49-53). Or are you witholding that information because it doesn’t butress your criticisms?
• Has Edmund J. Fortman been kicked to the curb by all you savants? Given what I’ve read here, he most certainly should have been. Don’t know him? He’s the well-respected Jesuit scholar, who, after careful examination of the New Testament, gave us this quote: “There is no trinitarian doctrine in the Synoptics or Acts.” He also observes that in the New Testament, “nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.” Fortman concludes "There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testanent writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But the three are there, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and a triadic ground plan is there, and triadic formulas are there … The Biblical witness to God, as we have seen, did not contain any formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, any explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons (all quotes from Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Westminster Press, 1972).

I could argue that I see every bit as much confusion and chaos in your tradition (and in your thinking!) as you claim to see in mine. It doesn’t lead to understanding, of course. But then, that’s not your objective.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I will leave it at this: judge the validity of the Church
by it’s people. On the whole the members of the
LDS Church are walking the talk. That is what
attracted me - and that is why I’ll stay.

All the best to you -

The problem with this is the LDS church, like all churches, has it’s share of murders, thieves, child molesters, liars, not to mention people who are thoughtless, cruel, arrogant, the list could go on. If your faith is dependent on the actions of your fellow church members it’s on sandy soil indeed.

 

[BrotherJohn7]

Kathleen -

I’m certainly open to learning more about any other
faith. The truth is the truth.

I can assure you that Mormons spend very little, if
any, of their time talking about what’s wrong with
other churches or their beliefs.

It does seem, however, that other churches spend
considerable time and effort seeking to make us
wrong.

I can also assure you that you, and those on this
forum, know (or think they know) significantly more
about Mormonism than I will pretend to know about
Catholicism.

As I have stated previous, at the age of 43 I cannot
say that I have ever met a practicing Catholic in
spite of the fact that I have lived all over this country.

Not a single one in my entire life. Maybe I have known
people who were just very private about it -

I know people practicing just about every other faith
and lifestyle imaginable!

I know a number of Mormons who have converted
from Catholicism - and I’ve never asked them why.
I’ve never sought “the dirt” and I cannot imagine
any good Mormon who’d waste a moment of their
time in that way.

I know a Mexican woman who converted with her
husband and children but they were afraid to tell
her family -

I know another woman who converted from
Catholicism and her family disowned her.

These are people well versed in Catholicism, people
who are highly committed to their new faith - so
much so that they’ve left family relationships - not
because that’s what they want but because they
recognize something very true about this Church.

Now, as I said - I’m not here to make any who has
the Catholic faith wrong for the faith they possess.

Faith is about FAITH! It’s not about “knowing” and
any “knowing” that is going to come to you will not
occur through text alone. It comes through the
witness of the Holy Ghost.

And I have that experience.

You have faith in the Savior and that is what matters
primarily - I am in no way, nor have I been in anyway
at anytime, here to weaken your faith.

All I ask is that before you go about casting stones
that you take the time to get your facts straight, and
that even further you make the effort to recognize
that Mormon’s are good people, striving to live a
Christian life - and it is my belief they are having a
great deal of success in helping people achieve
that.

All the best to you - John

PS - I am not really done here!

I really invite Mormons to go to their nearest Catholic parish this coming fall, and sign up for Rite of Christian Initiation or in classes for adult education that explain the premises and history of our faith within community to learn what we truly believe.

I was shocked to find out more about how Mormons think of the Catholic Church when I visited the Mormon book store…and then to hear some Mormons deny such teachings.

In the Catholic Church, we tell the truth, we show our teachings and we are open and honest about our Church’s past mistakes.

The other, as stated in another post, is that Sacred Scripture and the Church go together, because the Catholic Church in ancient times discerned with many consecrated souls which materials to put in the Bible, not just one man alledgely having it all.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

I for one really appreciated “Cal Fullerton’s” statement and insight.

What I have gotten from this particular thread, is the insight that Catholics believe God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are Separate and distinct Persons with Individuality, but that Catholics don’t believe Christ’s intercessory prayer had literal meaning, while Latter-day Saints do believe Christ was being very real and very precise in the words He used in the intercessory prayer and that to “be one with Them” is both possible and desirable through the atoning grace of Jesus Christ.

I too appreciate Cal’s sentiment and agree wholeheartedly. But can you just try for a moment to step into someone else’s shoes? When one admits that they believe in more than one god while at the same time claiming to be monotheistic something just doesn’t sit right. That’s the problem. I have no problem with someone claiming to believe in more than one god, if that is what they believe. We could have that discussion with the cards laid out on the table. It is saying one thing and claiming another that is the source of frustration.

As for the rest of your comments, who has ever said that Catholics don’t believe Christ’s intercessory prayer had literal meaning? I believe exactly what he said. It depends upon what you mean by becoming one. We believe, ultimately, that we will share in the inner life of the Holy Trinity as God’s adopted sons and daughters as we experience the beatific vision. That is our destiny. This process begins on earth. We become one with God by becoming a part of the mystical body of Christ. One cannot be more unified then becoming part of his body. This begins by entering into his Church, through baptism, and then being healed through Reconciliation and nourished by the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[Stephen168]

I’m going to bow out now. I did not come here to be
converted, nor chastised and berated.

From your few posts, it seems you came here to convert, chastise and berate.

I will leave it at this: judge the validity of the Church
by it’s people.

That is an irrational method on which to judge truth. Much of Mormonism has been shown to be false even though there are an average number of nice Mormons.

 

[Stephen168]

I was shocked to find out more about how Mormons think of the Catholic Church when I visited the Mormon book store…and then to hear some Mormons deny such teachings.

While in high school, on occasion, after attending morning ‘seminary class’ my Mormon friends would tell me what they learned about the Catholic Church. Not sure if it was officially taught or just the teacher free-styling.

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you.

I’m going to bow out now. I did not come here to be
converted, nor chastised and berated. I came here
to clarify mis-truths being claimed by people who
either don’t know, don’t care or who otherwise have
some prejudicial axe to grind.

Lefty, you have addressed the argument better than
I am able.

I will leave it at this: judge the validity of the Church
by it’s people. On the whole the members of the
LDS Church are walking the talk. That is what
attracted me - and that is why I’ll stay.

All the best to you -

Well, I don’t think that is a very legitimate way to judge the validity of the Church. If you want to read about some very holy people, read about the lives of Catholic saints. If you want to read about some Catholic scoundrels, read about some bishops in the middle ages selling indulgences. I find that Jehovah’s Witnesses also walk the talk and are very nice people, but I wouldn’t want to walk their walk or talk their talk. Every Buddhist I have met has been extremely polite and lives a virtuous life, as far as I can tell. Most all of the Mormons I have met are very nice, upstanding people. There is also a very influential Mormon man in our community who is the biggest real estate con artist I’ve ever seen. He has hurt hundreds of people for his own gain. Everyone outside of the Mormon community holds him in great contempt.

So should we keep a score card? Is that the basis for which we choose our faith? I choose to learn about the life of Christ, to enter the Church that he started and that he promised would never fail. This is a Church full of sinners in need of forgiveness and new life and both are found there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I can assure you that Mormons spend very little, if
any, of their time talking about what’s wrong with
other churches or their beliefs.

Not really true, right? What is the first thing a Mormon missionary tells anyone…great apostasy…your religion is founded on talking about the wrongness of other churches and their beliefs.

Maybe all the articles at lds.org will help to remind you (as though you forgot).

lmgtfy.com/?q=catholic+apostasy+site%3Alds.org
lmgtfy.com/?q=%22great+apostasy%22+site%3Alds.org

This is what KathleenGee is referring to, books in Deseret Book that are certainly “talking” about what’s wrong with other churches.

 

[Z_Ninja]

Kathleen -

I’m certainly open to learning more about any other
faith. The truth is the truth.

I can assure you that Mormons spend very little, if
any, of their time talking about what’s wrong with
other churches or their beliefs.

It does seem, however, that other churches spend
considerable time and effort seeking to make us
wrong.

I can also assure you that you, and those on this
forum, know (or think they know) significantly more
about Mormonism than I will pretend to know about
Catholicism.

As I have stated previous, at the age of 43 I cannot
say that I have ever met a practicing Catholic in
spite of the fact that I have lived all over this country.

Not a single one in my entire life. Maybe I have known
people who were just very private about it -

I know people practicing just about every other faith
and lifestyle imaginable!

I know a number of Mormons who have converted
from Catholicism - and I’ve never asked them why.
I’ve never sought “the dirt” and I cannot imagine
any good Mormon who’d waste a moment of their
time in that way.

I know a Mexican woman who converted with her
husband and children but they were afraid to tell
her family -

I know another woman who converted from
Catholicism and her family disowned her.

These are people well versed in Catholicism, people
who are highly committed to their new faith - so
much so that they’ve left family relationships - not
because that’s what they want but because they
recognize something very true about this Church.

Now, as I said - I’m not here to make any who has
the Catholic faith wrong for the faith they possess.

Faith is about FAITH! It’s not about “knowing” and
any “knowing” that is going to come to you will not
occur through text alone. It comes through the
witness of the Holy Ghost.

And I have that experience.

You have faith in the Savior and that is what matters
primarily - I am in no way, nor have I been in anyway
at anytime, here to weaken your faith.

All I ask is that before you go about casting stones
that you take the time to get your facts straight, and
that even further you make the effort to recognize
that Mormon’s are good people, striving to live a
Christian life - and it is my belief they are having a
great deal of success in helping people achieve
that.

All the best to you - John

PS - I am not really done here!

Now, it may just be me, but… My wife is Mormon, and I have on occasion gone to church with her. There have been many instances where the speaker has mentioned that the LDS church is the ONLY true church and that no other church has ever stated that “they know their church is true” and that only the LDS has that testimony. During a priesthood meeting, the speaker was a convert from Catholicism, and basically mocked the teaching of the Eucharist, saying that the only explanation he ever received from his mother was that it was a “Mystery” (while throwing up air quotes and eye rolls). I have heard quite often how all the other churches only have partial truth.

You are not the first to make the accusation that there are no real “practicing” Catholics. My wife made a statement along the lines of “I just happen to marry the only practicing Catholic” going on to say that her co-workers are Catholic and behave in ways that are very un-Catholic. (This happened when I explained I was going to Easter Mass.)

While these are small samples, and related to only me, it would be disingenuous to say Mormons don’t talk about what’s wrong with other religions. I do agree that it is about Faith.

Oh and I do recognize that the Mormons I have contact with, my wife and her family, are extremely nice people. Then I cast stones.

 

[Lefty0908]

Hey, Z,

Unfortunately, it’s not just you. You’re 100% correct, and I’m sure there are plenty of other examples of obnoxious Mormons speaking in a derogatory manner of other peoples’ faith. For the record, I think any instance of that is reprehensible. If someone tells me that my beliefs are wrong and even that I’m going to hell because of them, I take no offense. If they can lift me or point me to a better way, I have no problem even though I may disagree. It’s only when my own beliefs are ridiculed and mocked that I am troubled. So to see that very thing on the part of my own people makes me cringe.

And though the terms may not be the same, make no mistake that devout, communicant Catholics don’t have a “testimony” of their faith and that they don’t literally believe their Church to be “the only true Church.” They do, and I admire that. In my opinion, any person who embraces a system of religious belief should consider that system to be the only repository of the complete truth that God has revealed. If not, what purpose is there in embracing it in the first place? It is readily apparent that even among the sects of Christianity there are substantive differences in doctrine, and if God is the source of all truth, then by definition they can’t all come from Him. So in my mind, if the church with which one aligns him/herself (see how politically correct I am? ) doesn’t provide one with enough reasons to believe that it contains a fulness of God’s truth, perhaps that person should look elsewhere.

And having said that, there should be found in “the only true church” some expression of what the Savior said in Mark 9:39-40. So based on that, I would tell your former-Catholic-convert-priesthood-instructor that (1) the Eucharist is beautiful and (2) that he’s an idiot.

 

[SteveVH]

Hey, Z,

Unfortunately, it’s not just you. You’re 100% correct, and I’m sure there are plenty of other examples of obnoxious Mormons speaking in a derogatory manner of other peoples’ faith. For the record, I think any instance of that is reprehensible. If someone tells me that my beliefs are wrong and even that I’m going to hell because of them, I take no offense. If they can lift me or point me to a better way, I have no problem even though I may disagree. It’s only when my own beliefs are ridiculed and mocked that I am troubled. So to see that very thing on the part of my own people makes me cringe.

And though the terms may not be the same, make no mistake that devout, communicant Catholics don’t have a “testimony” of their faith and that they don’t literally believe their Church to be “the only true Church.” They do, and I admire that. In my opinion, any person who embraces a system of religious belief should consider that system to be the only repository of the complete truth that God has revealed. If not, what purpose is there in embracing it in the first place? It is readily apparent that even among the sects of Christianity there are substantive differences in doctrine, and if God is the source of all truth, then by definition they can’t all come from Him. So in my mind, if the church with which one aligns him/herself (see how politically correct I am? ) doesn’t provide one with enough reasons to believe that it contains a fulness of God’s truth, perhaps that person should look elsewhere.

And having said that, there should be found in “the only true church” some expression of what the Savior said in Mark 9:39-40. So based on that, I would tell your former-Catholic-convert-priesthood-instructor that (1) the Eucharist is beautiful and (2) that he’s an idiot.

Great post Lefty. Its refreshing to see honesty and fairness. This is one area in which we can agree in principle. If you don’t believe your Church is the one, true Church then you had better keep looking. Why would anyone settle for less?

 

[Z_Ninja]

Great post Lefty. Its refreshing to see honesty and fairness. This is one area in which we can agree in principle. If you don’t believe your Church is the one, true Church then you had better keep looking. Why would anyone settle for less?

Agreed.

Thank you for your response Lefty. All faiths will have those that can display such reprehensible behavior. The Catholic Church has it’s fair share of people that have displayed such cringeworthyness. Sometimes even among ourselves.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Rebecca…

BrotherJohn…I hear you but you are not aware of so many of Mormonism’s history of teachings, practices, beliefs.

I am basically like you…hard to believe…but I went to a Deseret Book store to learn about Mormonism with a friendly, open minded heart and soul.

I am drawn to Scriptural spirituality. I looked over and saw this green, older book, ‘The Pearl of Great Price’, most likely the 1852 edition by Orson Pratt considered a great work…and in it were writings about the Roman Church…that were so powerful and riveting that put me in great shock.

The Mormon people I knew were very nice. But I do know I was speaking with a Mormon, and I mentioned the Pearl of Great Price…meaning Christ and His kingdom, and my acquaintance had a shadow over his face. I didn’t know what he was thinking…but I knew then it was something else…and he knew I was Catholic.

I also saw an ending comment that the ex-Mormons were watching our reaction on CAF, as they grew up with alot of anti-Catholicism, to our finding out the Mormon temple was going up on the outside of Rome…always wondered what kind of activity was going on in them…have one by me…see cars out there all hours of day and night…I mentioned this the other day to our iconist and she literally got physically affected.

We know what your religion teaches. And the anti-priest rituals…I read them…I went to these different sites learning about Mormonism and all the beliefs, practices…I know they vary…but…

It all came across as a foundation in bigotry and willful ignorance and an attachment to things not real, male superiority over women…and some here bring up teachings and practices I already knew about.

I grew up with alot of anti-Catholicism.

It angers me and makes me think the Mormon leadership is devious and lying when they deny they ever said such things, or remove them from believers as yourself.

I am sorry to offend you in any way. But it is a most weak premise to define my faith and my church, and my people and their history…they have suffered alot more than Mormons…as corrupt, an abomination.

That is no construct to begin a new religion using the name of Jesus Christ, and then using Him, the reality of Who He is and His revelation to us…and to make Him out to be an extension of such thinking.

The Catholic Church is not based on bigotry or relegating other people to inferior status and then making itself superior. There is language that affirms we have the fullness of deposit of faith.

But no one in the Catholic Church, or anywhere else for that matter, has a monopoly on holiness. Nobody. Our goodness is found in God alone–Who Is, Who was not prior some man.

There is a quase heresy about Christianity…being Christian is being nice…the pagans are nice…some times nicer than church people.

If all you can say is that you have never met a Catholic who is a Christian…sorry, but because you seem to be aware that they are Catholic in the first place…you could be applying outward Mormon culture to Catholics.

I moved to another diocese, and I found the Catholics very clannish, and some even mean spirited and not open to newcomers. Then I learned about the history of the Klu Klux Klan and the state and how it had majority vote to shut down Catholic/private schools. They lost. We hear of stories of the Klan…many of them of a type of Christianity like the beliefs in Mormonism that we are the Great Babylon, etc…

And along with this anti-Catholicism is racist, anti-Black people, which is also prevalent in the state, blacks not allowed into other neighborhoods only up to recent times, caricatures of black cartoons on white restaurants…

And then I am appalled at the lack of reciprocity of Mormons thinking they do nothing wrong to pose as a geneology society to get as they did recently, this ‘treasure trove’ of deceased priests, nuns, and other Catholics so they could baptize these dead in the Mormon temples. This is devious. We already know this baptism doesn’t work. But it is the principle.

Now Mormon ‘scholars’ are taking ancient Catholic writings and taking a few sentences out of context, or not understanding the spirit of the Church, using quotes to prove Mormonism…to further mislead their own people.

Finally it is the Mormon practices first in misleading people about my faith, how it entraps people with speedy baptisms, then changes the creed, to creating new stories as true, the practices of Mormon bishops…that do not come up once or twice, but serious issues…that this reflects more a man made religion than one inspired by God.

Do I disrespect or look down on the Mormon people? Not at all.

But what I am having issue with is the continual cover-ups, the excuses for changing their beliefs, as well what was shared here.

Christ forgives and He forgives my Catholic Church in its own pleading forgiveness for its sins. Christ is far greater than all sin ever committed or to be committed by mankind. I continue to study my Catholic faith, and the more I continue to learn, the more I am so certain the Catholic Church is truly Christ’s only established Church.

There was no apostasy after the last apostle died. Do you think they would have some kind of inkling to insure the true faith of Christ would go on? Of course and whatever proof we give, the Mormons will not believe…but they will believe in Joseph Smith and ignore all the extenuating circumstances of his life.

Do not put your trust in man, but only in the Lord Who can save you and give you fulfillment of life.

 

[KathleenGee]

Lefty,

Likewise, appreciate your post…

And I have to add, denigrating another religion on Catholic Church property is forbidden. There may be a class, but if so, meetings are conducted in utmost professionalism and acknowledging the good other faiths do.

Mormons should attend a Catholic Mass. They are always open to the public. You will never see a priest knock Mormonism or any other religion because Catholicism is forward oriented…based on Christ, not man.

 

[Linda_June]

Paul,

Once I had a neighbor who was desparately trying to convert me. He told me about how Mormons believe that the wives can’t go to their version of heaven (the planet the husband gets to be god of) if her husband says no. So the wives have to be perfectly pleasing to the old man in order to have a shot of “going to heaven” which, by his description, is just more of the same earthly life for her. She doesn’t get multiple husbands but gets to sit around and watch the old man screw around at will.

Was his description and my interpretation anywhere close to what they teach?

Thanks!

 

[Lefty0908]

Kathleen,

100% with you that Mormons should attend a Catholic Mass. I was a music major in college and you simply cannot talk about the history and development of what we call “classical” music in the Western world without considering many of the aspects of Catholic worship. If some of what we consider to be the greatest music ever written by composers we deem to be geniuses was inspired by elements of Catholic liturgy, then what does that say about the texts that inspired those composers? There is so very much beauty that is to be admired and respected in your faith.

On the subject of your trip to Deseret Book, I’m confused. You reference seeing a “green, older book, The Pearl of Great Price, most likely the 1852 edition by Orson Pratt considered a great work…and in it were writings about the Roman Church…that were so powerful and riveting that put me in great shock.”

The Pearl of Great Price is a book Mormons consider to be scripture. The first edition went to press in 1851, the second in 1878. There have never been any writings of Orson Pratt in The Pearl of Great Price. Our critics like to cite The Seer by Orson Pratt as being representative of bizarre LDS “doctrine.” I sincerely doubt this book is carried by Deseret Book. For what it’s worth, when The Seer first appeared, Brigham Young and the other leaders of the Church issued this statement: “*The Seer *[and other writings by Pratt] contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed.” Latter-day Saints feel no obligation to be bound doctrinally by the teachings in that book, though many critics try to impose them on us. I see that The Seer is available on Amazon for a cost of anywhere between $25-$250 (I think I’d rather buy a cheap-to-good pair of pants!). So I don’t really know how to respond to your Deseret Book outing.

My own experience with web-sites purporting to tell you about any religion other than the one of which they are a part is that that website is usually misleading at best.

 

[BrotherJohn7]

You are not the first to make the accusation that there are no real “practicing” Catholics. My wife made a statement along the lines of “I just happen to marry the only practicing Catholic” going on to say that her co-workers are Catholic and behave in ways that are very un-Catholic. (This happened when I explained I was going to Easter Mass.)

Please be clear that I don’t say that in a malicious way. I just don’t know any who are practicing and most of what I know about Catholicism I either learned from the Sopranos, The Tudors or bad comedy.

It’s just curious to me, when I think about it, that I have never met a practicing, devout Catholic. I’m sure they’re around!

While these are small samples, and related to only me, it would be disingenuous to say Mormons don’t talk about what’s wrong with other religions. I do agree that it is about Faith.

Oh and I do recognize that the Mormons I have contact with, my wife and her family, are extremely nice people. Then I cast stones.

I admit that your points are correct, at least in part.

1. I don’t think that testifying “This is the true church” necessarily equates to talking about any other church - but I concede that probably does imply the others are not, or that in some form or fashion they are incorrect.

Even if that’s true, personally, I don’t think it needs to be said.

What I meant to say is that I have never once had a conversation with anyone about why the LDS Church is “The true church” because another church “has something wrong”.

And that’s not to say it never occurs - but it shouldn’t be happening at church.

It’s more an expression of faith - the belief that this is the Church, restored to the way Jesus intended it to be.

I will go a step further and say there are - because everyone in the Church has an opportunity to speak publicly - things which are said on occasion that don’t need to be said and shouldn’t be said.

1. When a person has left one group and joined another it is a common human reaction, out of a desire to fit in, to speak of what they left behind in an unflattering way. That isn’t a unique occurrence at Mormon meeting houses.

I don’t attribute that to anything the Church endorses, nor encourages, and frankly if the leadership in that room is doing their job it should correct that individual.

Believe me there are a variety of topics I’ve heard brought up, usually by new members, that are not on purpose. But that’s to be expected of all of us as we make progression.

I appreciate your light-hearted tone. I keep saying I’m outta here -

All the best to you - John