Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[ParkerD]

Continued…

Interesting. Do you know of any religious group today who has the same aspirations?

SteveVH,

The words of Isaiah should not be difficult to comprehend about the situation of Lucifer. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven…I will be like the most High. (14:13, 14) “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms,…that opened not the house of his prisoners?” (14:16, 17)

I certainly know of no religious group today that has those same aspirations–at least I would hope not and if they do, then they have joined his side in the “war on earth” that he wages.

But I do know a religious group that knows that Jesus Christ has “opened” the prison doors, through the key that is upon His shoulder, (Isaiah 61:1 and Isaiah 22:22-23)

and that to become “like Christ” and thus be a " joint heir" with Him is not only possible, but is part of the plan of salvation (through His atoning grace, which was provided for from the beginning) that is an available choice (subverted by Satan) that can be made.

 

[mwok]

Z,

Here are some applicable verses about the Only Begotten of the Father:

Moses 6:62
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:13; 29:46
76:13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

29:46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

John 1:14; 3:16
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

His Only Begotten Son “was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning”.

That is a profound difference in comparing Him with anyone else–He is uniquely His Only Begotten Son, “who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning.”

This doesn’t help very much in explaining “Only Begotten” as most of the referrences you provided came from Joseph Smith. It also doesn’t reconcile that “begotten” implies that they are of one substance, not the same substance but one substance.

 

[ParkerD]

This doesn’t help very much in explaining “Only Begotten” as most of the referrences you provided came from Joseph Smith. It also doesn’t reconcile that “begotten” implies that they are of one substance, not the same substance but one substance.

mwok,

Zaffiroborant was asking about Latter-day Saint beliefs, so the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price would of course be consulted if one wants to know Latter-day Saint beliefs, but also one can find consistency with Biblical teachings in this case as well.

As far as the limitations of language, then I have no question that God is aware that there are limitations within human languages, and that we are going to be held accountable for what is in our heart and for what we do (our actions)–not for the limitations of languages in conveying meanings that may be beyond mortal words to convey the full meaning.

 

[Mike_Dante]

Regarding what you mentioned about an undereducated 20-something being able to write a near impossible piece of work, I’d like to mention that in those days, there weren’t all that many people here in the U.S. who were well-educated, at least in the formal sense. I don’t know what type of schooling Joseph Smith received in his youth. Perhaps you have an idea of how much formal schooling he received …

In support of what Denise is saying, take a look at Ken Burns’ “The Civil War”. In it he quotes from letters written by ordinary soldiers who came straight from the farm. I have rarely seen essays written by modern college students which were so literate, well argued, and well written. Joseph Smith was likely as well educated (equally not formally) as many of these soldiers.

Experts (authors on C-SPAN’s Book TV) tell us that ordinary people (people we would today characterize as poorly educated) in the 19th century spent much of their free time in discussions and debates, presenting and defending their own opinions, and refuting the contrary opinions of those who disagreed. It is hard for us to imagine a society with few other pastimes than reading, writing and discussion. However, most educators agree that active learning is the best way to learn.

In the era in which Joseph Smith grew up, most people were educated, not in schools, but in the family, church and community. So it seems to me likely that if Joseph Smith had only learned to read and write, then from his daily interactions with his neighbors he would have received a better liberal arts education than that of most present day American Graduate Students. (At least he would have been better able to articulate and argue his beliefs and opinions. He just wouldn’t have been able to give Latin names to the forms of his arguments and literary expressions. )

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I’ve noticed that with “The Only Begotten Son”, no explanation as to just how that might fit into a theology the is quite clear that Jesus is our older brother, literally born of the the same Heavenly parents. While I can see their understanding where Jesus is the only son physically begotten in “mortality” I don’t see how you can mesh our view of the Son as the “Only Begotten” with theirs like Parker wants to do. It seems they all make up what they believe according to what ever strikes their fancy.

It nauseates me that it suited Joseph Smith’s fancy to make Jesus and Satan (Lucifer) brothers in the pre-existent (non-existent!) spirit world, and us their literal brothers and sisters as well. Jesus is the actual, physical brother of Satan! That sound you hear is me throwing up. Can any Christian get his mind around that? Reducing the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity to the product of sexual intercourse between one of a myriad of Gods and one of his nameless goddess wives (plural), and making Him the brother of Satan? And Mormons insist that their religion is “Christian”! Oy veh!

Jim Dandy

 

[Springkeeper]

Thank you, Miriam. When I left the LDS, I felt so hurt, lied to and betrayed that I also went through a 24-year period of bitter atheism. Finally, God in His mercy called to me. I tried to resist but He kept after me until I started looking for the truth. I read everything about every religion from paganism to taoism to buddhism to Islam to Judaism to Protestant Christianity. At the end I looked into Catholicism (the faith of my fathers) and found the truth I was looking for. When I read the Catechism and the Early Church Fathers, I knew I had come home at last.

Thank you, Jesus!

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Lord Jesus be praised! Welcome home!

The Mormons who worked with my son in California did a full court press on him but he had such a good knowledge of the Bible he was able to stay the course. He did really appreciate their pro-family beliefs though (as did I). One of my son’s favorite verses “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God.” (John 1:1)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Z,

Here are some applicable verses about the Only Begotten of the Father:

Moses 6:62
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:13; 29:46
76:13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

29:46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

John 1:14; 3:16
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

His Only Begotten Son “was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning”.

That is a profound difference in comparing Him with anyone else–He is uniquely His Only Begotten Son, “who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning.”

Except that He is not the only begotten son, Satan is a begotten son, you are a begotten son. The only way it works in LDS theology, and the only way I’ve had it explained by LDS, is that He is the only one begotten in the flesh by The Father.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am with Jim Dandy regarding the upset I got reading old mormon beliefs. It is most difficult for me to go back to our own Mormon threads and pull out the links.

I read online the behaviors surround the anti-Catholic priest ritual.

Yes, the Mormon Church is indeed sanitizing and pretty much implying those who have come across and found them, exposed such ideas, are immediately accused of making things up. Again, I see that as another sign their teachings are corrupt, and in a certain way profane the Lord Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word, His mission and salvation to the world.

And how difficult it is for Mormons to leave their families. In the past, if I am correct, those who left were shunned by their families. This happens in other non-denominational Christian communities here in America.

If people would go to a secular site such as Newsvine, and read past threads on Christianity, they have a most profound contempt for it because of all the extreme cult like ideas or behaviors, and against the Catholic Church it really is because the Church opposes sexual license.

The clergy sex abuse was intensely jumped on, when 5% of the Catholic clergy were guilty. Part of the slant was to imply these priests committed crimes because they weren’t having sex.

I see many themes within Mormonism focused on sex and propagation. And so far, I see no empathy from Mormons in regard to our celibate priests and religious.

I read St. Clare’s letter and it showed such a profound espousal to Christ, but it was not sexual but a most profound spiritual love that transcends the sexual.

The Mormons can continue to pull out old ideas, but because the foundation of Mormonism is based on these teachings that held out for so many years, try as they may, they are not going to be able to dissociate from them.

The only solution to Mormonism standardization is to pull back, see it for what it is, and leave it.

I am praying for the Mormons to come into the Catholic Church. I pray that all the times our teachings are criticized or brought up to twist to prove their points…I pray the Holy Spirit will begin to call Mormons to question and ponder and go deeper, to essentially seek the truth, Veritatis Splendor…the Splendor of Truth, Jesus Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mwok,

We have now on CAF a prayer group for Mormons. I am not computer savvy…but if you look at top and see groups…the group praying for the Mormons is there.

 

[KathleenGee]

In regards to questioning Joseph Smith’s native intelligence…he was involved with divination, and that can give someone ‘secret’ knowledge, or an amazing ability to use one’s intellect in an extraordinary way.

St. Catherine of Siena was not formally taught but her ‘Dialogues’ and her living out her faith made her a doctor of the Church.

There is an old thread put out by an evangelical, ‘EV Comments on the Ongoing Struggle Between Catholics and the LDS’.

There is a thesis put out on whether or not Joseph Smith wrote his teachings…

sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

Soren has alot of background on Mormonism.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

It would be an incorrect statement to say “it was part of God’s intention that sin enter the world”. It would be correct to say “It was part of God’s intention that free will choice be given to humankind.” It would also be correct to say, “God knew through His perfect foreknowledge that humankind would sin.”

I saw a video clip of a Mormon man in some sort of training session, maybe it was with missionaries, but I’m not certain. I will be happy to find it again if need be. The tact that he promoted was not to answer the question asked, but rather “the question that they should have asked”. I feel like I’m kind of getting the same thing here.

Of course it was God’s plan, intention and will that mankind have free will. He created us with free will, otherwise Adam and Eve could not have chosen to disobey God in the first place. The angels were also given free will or they could not have chosen to rebel against God. Mankind did not have to sin in order to acquire free will. And, of course, *“God knew through His perfect foreknowledge that humankind would sin.” * I said as much already. Its called “omniscience”. The reason I even brought up the question is that, according to my understanding of the Mormon position, a conversation took place in heaven, with Jesus and Lucifer present as Heavenly Father presented his plan. This plan was that “spirit children” would be sent to earth and become incarnate in order to be faced with “free will choice” and thus progress to a divine state. I won’t go any further until you verify that this is actually your position as I am not interested in pursuing an argument based upon a false premise.

This does not mean that God was complicit or that it was part of His intention that Satan would introduce sin into the world. Satan did that tempting, acting of Satan’s own volition. By God’s foreknowledge, He knew what Satan would do after the creation, when Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden as well as now, when we are here on the earth. God also knew that free will choice would accomplish an ultimately good purpose.

If it was God’s plan that, in order to reach our ultimate destiny (heaven), we must experience evil in the world in order to make “free will choices” then he was complicit. Maybe a better way to approach this is to give the Catholic view and see if you agree.

We believe that God’s plan was to create mankind, with free will, of course, so that they may choose to love him. Adam and Eve had the choice to trust in God and remain in Paradise where they walked with God. God is all about relationship. He created us as his sons and daughters and gave us everything we might need for our happiness. Satan appeared on the scene and tempted Adam and Eve. He placed doubt in heart about God’s intentions. Why would he prohibit them from eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? The devil more than implied that it was because God was holding out on them. They would be just like God if they ate of the Tree and God did not want that. But they did. They wanted to be like God, but independent of God. So they disobeyed Him and ate. Did God know that they were going to do this? Yes. He knows everything, past present and future. Regardless, due to their own free will, they sinned and the world would never be the same. Evil, suffering and death entered the world and affected all of creation. Out of his love for us, God sent his only Son to save us from the consequences of the choice our first parents (and now us) made.

Satan continues to act of his own volition every single time he or his fallen angel followers influence through temptation, anyone to commit sin.

Agreed.

Receiving Christ’s redemption is a choice available to be made by every person who has attained an age where they can make an accountable choice.

Christ redeemed us, regardless of our choice or our age. It is done and over with. But there is a difference between redemption and salvation. In the end, was must submitt our lives completely and totally to God. God, knowing our situation, gave us a Church and its sacraments in order that we might attain this goal of “becomming one” with Christ. It is why the Eucharist is all important. We consume him, not just symbollically, but very literally, so that he may consume us entirely. We become truly one with Him. It is why he said “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life in you”. It is that important. Salvation is found in His Church.

So, “we are saved by a choice we can make and we need to make–to choose Him.”

Then why the need for progression? If you are going to tell me that we should progress in holiness by giving control of our lives to God rather than ourselves you will get no argument from me, but I think the Mormon idea of progression is something a little different.

 

[NewSeeker]

I was raised Mormon and was Mormon for 42 of my 45 years (seminary grad, mission, temple marriage, etc). I still go to the LDS church to support my wife and preserve family unity for the sake of our boys, with the blessing of my priest. It’s true, it’s official LDS doctrine that all of us (Jesus and Satan, included) are spiritually begotten by the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother), and are literally God’s spiritual offspring. According to this doctrine, only Jesus was physically begotten of the Father. The pre-mortal spirit Jesus was also the Jehovah of the New Testament, a god in truth, though lacking a physical body and therefore not exalted. That’s one huge theological hole Mormons can’t fill, as anyone, in the LDS view, can become a god like Jesus and the Father, so long as they live through mortality, be baptized, marry a spouse in the temple, endure to the end, and then inherit the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Jesus got to skip all of these steps before inheriting his godhood. Ask a mormon to explain the contradiction and they’ll say something along the lines of “we don’t know why” or “the reason has not yet been revealed” or “through God’s foreknowledge he must have known Jesus would be perfect in mortality”, and then they’ll turn around when Catholicism comes up and criticize the Catholic use of the word ‘mystery’.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, I have to comment on a part from Brother John’s post 703. In my concern that I consider it ethically wrong to access our sacramental records, of which is represents our initiation into the sacred of the One True God, in regards to getting names to baptize the Catholic dead into Mormonism, and a prior note on getting access to priests and nuns going back 1,000 years…I may add…

His response was, ‘How do you know…? It’s a loving act. If it’s wrong what harm is done? And if it is right?’

There is an old thread, pretty touchy…page 34, ‘LDS Question: Lying for the Lord’.

Too many cover-up’s, denials, accusations we are making things up, no conscience in getting devout records for baptism, etc.

When a religion or philosophy is based on man, you will get the fruit of man which is sin.

When a religion is based on Christ and His life in Word, Spirit, Truth, the Sacraments, then you get people who reflect Christ, the One True God.

“I Am the Lord thy God”. "Thou shalt not have strange gods …’

 

[Denise1957]

In support of what Denise is saying, take a look at Ken Burns’ “The Civil War”. In it he quotes from letters written by ordinary soldiers who came straight from the farm. I have rarely seen essays written by modern college students which were so literate, well argued, and well written. Joseph Smith was likely as well educated (equally not formally) as many of these soldiers.

Experts (authors on C-SPAN’s Book TV) tell us that ordinary people (people we would today characterize as poorly educated) in the 19th century spent much of their free time in discussions and debates, presenting and defending their own opinions, and refuting the contrary opinions of those who disagreed. It is hard for us to imagine a society with few other pastimes than reading, writing and discussion. However, most educators agree that active learning is the best way to learn.

In the era in which Joseph Smith grew up, most people were educated, not in schools, but in the family, church and community. So it seems to me likely that if Joseph Smith had only learned to read and write, then from his daily interactions with his neighbors he would have received a better liberal arts education than that of most present day American Graduate Students. (At least he would have been better able to articulate and argue his beliefs and opinions. He just wouldn’t have been able to give Latin names to the forms of his arguments and literary expressions. )

I appreciate your excellent explanation here - thanks!

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

It would be an incorrect statement to say “it was part of God’s intention that sin enter the world”. It would be correct to say “It was part of God’s intention that free will choice be given to humankind.” It would also be correct to say, “God knew through His perfect foreknowledge that humankind would sin.”

I would agree that it was God’s will that mankind be created with free will, that is why we were created with free will, not after the fall, but before the fall. We were created with free will so that we could freely love Him. Tell me if I am wrong here, but your position is that they had no free will until they had eaten of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If this is correct then sin had to be a necessary part of God’s plan. Any time we sin, we go against God’s will. Adam and Eve’s eating of the forbidden fruit, obviously, went against God’s will. He had strictly forbidden them to eat of it. If it was God’s will that they disobey him in order to attain “free will choice” then there is no way that God was not complicit in their sin. That is just an objective truth.

 

[lax16]

We acknowledge the fact that there are more “Gods” than just our God but we worship only ONE God and that is God The Father.

Irishmen - Thank you for answering the OP. Based on Webster’s definition of polytheism, Mormons are polytheistic because, as you said, Mormons acknowledge the fact that there are more gods than just our God.

Therefore, Mormons believe in more than one God, even if they do not worship them, making them (you) polytheistic.

Do you understand that Christians and Jews find this LDS belief to be heretical?

Honestly, I am shocked that you said that Mormons acknowledge that there are more gods than just our God…

Definition of POLYTHEISM
: belief in or worship of more than one god
Origin of POLYTHEISM
French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
First Known Use: 1613

 

[twopekinguys]

We acknowledge the fact that there are more “Gods” than just our God but we worship only ONE God and that is God The Father.

ParkerD, I would be interested in hearing your view on this.

Irishmen10 claims to be LDS, but you appear to have differing views on this.

 

[KathleenGee]

I put my posts out this am…don’t mean to get off the topic…

I am going to back here to Mormons taking Catholic teachings to prove their beliefs, or use ours to show we are pretty much the same. This is deceit.

The Mormon Church sees itself in competition with the Catholic Church, it envies it, it covets it. They hope to get a treasure trove…this time possibly of our canonized saints when they get temple up.

The Mormon temples are now going up all over because the Mormons believe when they are up all over, the Mormons have won.

As Mormons attempt to disassociate from their past teachings, they are now using more and more Catholic early Church fathers, saints, philosophers, to prove their polytheism.

As they continue to disassociate, and draw on more Catholic teachings, may be they will come to a new place, but same behavior-----begin now to teach Catholic teachings and beliefs…but all with the intent and conviction of Mormon thought.

They are already using ours and stepping away from theirs…like Christ to them is different from the Christ we know.

Heck, they could end up with their own universal catechism, Vatican II, liturgy, canon law…and then it is…

They become us!!! YEEEOOOWWWWWW!!

 

[KathleenGee]

I put my posts out this am…don’t mean to get off the topic…

I am going to back here to Mormons taking Catholic teachings to prove their beliefs, or use ours to show we are pretty much the same. This is deceit.

The Mormon Church sees itself in competition with the Catholic Church, it envies it, it covets it. They hope to get a treasure trove…this time possibly of our canonized saints when they get temple up in Rome. They were put off because they couldn’t access our records. The Vatican told them to essentially stop brooding over this, but let’s still work on better relationships.

The Mormon temples are now going up all over because the Mormons believe when they are up all over, the Mormons have won. The temples’ goings - on are nothing at all like what happens in our Catholic cathedrals.

As Mormons attempt to disassociate from their past teachings, they are now using more and more Catholic early Church fathers, saints, philosophers, to prove their polytheism! Of course, we know they miss the mark…But seeing how God, Christ, the heavenly mother, eternal life, heaven, etc is so opposite of ours…and now they are trying to cover up and deny some teachings well…

Well, as they continue to disassociate but draw on more Catholic teachings, maybe they will come to a new place---- but same behavior-----to now begin to teach Catholic teachings and beliefs…but all with the intent and conviction of Mormon thought. Because afterall, they are the saints of Jesus Christ, they were right all along, and they are only being charitable and loving to restore the truth about God, Christ, the old devil, and ourselves.

They are already using our teachings---- and stepping away from theirs…like Christ to them is different from the Christ we know. And now it is no teach, speak, discuss the evils of the Catholic Church or any other…

Could it be they could end up with their own universal catechism, Vatican II, liturgy, canon law…and then it is…

The Mormons become us!!! And we are delegated down to the lowest ranks of heaven…if we can make it.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim, I think if you wiki any of the tussles the mormon settlers had in Missouri I think it said something about land monopolization and a bank that JS owned that failed.

Hi mwok,

I had in mind the facts revealed in an article in Esquire Magazine (I think) years ago that documented the banks, mortgage institutions, real estate holdings, and other financial assets that are owned by the LDS organization. Even then, one could see the point of the article, which was that the Mormons are in a position to control the country. I was wondering if Paul (or others) knew where that information is available today, and whether it has been updated.

Jim Dandy