Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[freddo]

Uh, it wasn’t a survey. Just conversations, nothing formal.

I will agree that Orson Pratt had many, uh, tidbits. lol But how about Ezra Taft Benson?:

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The
body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy
Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father.” (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).

I used to have a better conglomeration of sources on this, but I have no idea where it went. But here’s a good starting point anyway.

I understand that lots of church leaders, particularly in the early days, were spouting off a lot of different ideas that Mormonism no longer espouses. I also understand, however, that Mormon prophets and apostles are considered to be special witnesses of Christ. They are considered to be in direct communication with them (although, I have seen it debated as to whether or not apostles are included in this, even though they are also considered “prophets, seers and revelators”). As such, I would have thought that the (name removed by moderator)ut they gave onto the character, the nature of God would be considered pretty accurate. Obviously that is not the case, though, which makes me wonder what the point of having prophets today is anyway, if they are as prone to teaching false doctrine as the next person.

 

[Fink]

So, I guess you’re right with respect to the fact that they crucified Him because He said He was God, but not that He said He was the Father. He said He was the Son of God, as did Peter, as did Paul, as did John. God the Son, the Son of God, separate and distinct from God the Father.

No orthodox Christian believes that Father and Son are one and the same.

Has anyone ever explained the orthodox meaning of The Blessed Trinity?

God the Father is “only” Spirit.
Spirit does not have any material makeup; and, so doesnt occupy space. The Father is perfect. infinite, eternal. The Father possesses the fullness of the Godhead. The Father knows Himself perfectly, infinitely, eternally. The Fathers Selfknowledge is perfect, infinite, eternal.
There is nothing about Himself that God the Father doesnt know. God the Fathers Selfknowledge is God the Son.
Because everything that the Father is is contained in His Selfknowledge:
God the Son possesses the fullness of the Godhead.
God the Son is not a separate God, because He relies on the Father for His existence.
The Son is generated by the Father in eternity.
God the Father can`t exist without His Selfknowledge.
Father and Son are perfectly, infinitely, eternally united. The union is TOTAL, INDIVISIBLE!
The Son is of one essence with the Father. Of one Being with the Father (Nicene Creed).

Remember: were talking about **SPIRIT.** Theres no puzzle of how two infinite Persons (or Principles, or Operators) can occupy the same space, because they don`t occupy space.

Let`s stop there… The Holy Spirit can come later…

A spirit, eg the human soul, or an angel (good or fallen) consists of “only” intellect and will; and is nowhere. The closest we can go to saying that, say, the Devil is “anywhere” is that hes wherever his intellect and will are focussed. But, the "wherever" is only a metaphor. A spirit is **NOT** just a material being whos invisible.

Got carried away!

 

[BlueFrog]

I recently had a conversation and it was brought up that the LDS believe that God has a father and he has a father and one is the god of the other. but only our God is our father and is the God of us. It seems like there are many gods and some are above the other almost making a Greek style mythology with diety fathers having human children. This is not Christian I don’t know what to call it.

the real question is: who is the supreme top-dog daddy god of all the lesser mormon gods? does this “daddy” god dominate these lesser ones? like all things in mormon culture it may just be another pyramid scheme.

 

[ParkerD]

Uh, it wasn’t a survey. Just conversations, nothing formal.

I will agree that Orson Pratt had many, uh, tidbits. lol But how about Ezra Taft Benson?:

Quote:
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The
body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy
Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father.” (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).
…

Freddo,

I was not disagreeing about this kind of statement. This statement says nothing about “how”, and Ezra Taft Benson would surely say Mary was a virgin before she conceived the Savior, when she conceived the Savior, and when He was born from her womb. Thus, she became “great with child” through a miraculous means whereby the Holy Ghost “shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy [child] which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” [meaning the Son of God the Father] (Luke 1:35).

This means that the cells that comprised the body of the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb began cell division and had whatever the genetic components would be from a mother who was mortal and from a Father who was the Highest, and when Jesus talked about His relationship with the Father, it was a literal relationship and neither Joseph nor the Holy Ghost were His Father, and He knew it.

 

[freddo]

I think that his choice of the word “sired” is pretty telling. Particularly in conjunction with statements by past church leaders.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,

It is what the verses said that the chief priests were accusing Him of–that He was saying He is the Son of God, and because of that they said He was guilty of blasphemy. They also said they believed in One God. That is why they rejected what Jesus was saying–that there could even be such a belief as the Son of God, which would indeed make Him God, and they knew that.

So, I guess you’re right with respect to the fact that they crucified Him because He said He was God, but not that He said He was the Father. He said He was the Son of God, as did Peter, as did Paul, as did John. God the Son, the Son of God, separate and distinct from God the Father.

Yes, Jesus IS the Son of God and distinct from God the Father. But there is STILL only ONE God and Jesus NEVER taught a belief in multiple gods. Never!!!

 

[ParkerD]

I think that his choice of the word “sired” is pretty telling. Particularly in conjunction with statements by past church leaders.

Freddo,

“Sired” means “Father of”. It does not mean how the relationship happened such that the Son became the child of the Father. This is “simple science”–not something that should be hard to grasp for anyone familiar with the capabilities of modern science and the expanded knowledge that we have through known science.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, Jesus IS the Son of God and distinct from God the Father. But there is STILL only ONE God and Jesus NEVER taught a belief in multiple gods. Never!!!

Jay53,

I agree. That is because He understood perfectly the concept of Oneness, as He expressed in His Intercessory prayer. So His being the Son of God did not mean there were “multiple gods” in the way you use those words nor in the way this thread was started.

The Jewish chief priests didn’t understand that concept of Oneness, at all. They accused Him of blasphemy because they heard Him saying and teaching that He was the Son of God. That was their grounds for having the crucifixion carried out and them feeling they were doing the right thing in the sight of the “One God” they believed in, however incorrect their belief was with regard to the possibility of there being a literal Savior of the world who would be One with the Father.

 

[RebeccaJ]

They were angry at Jesus because He indicated He is “I AM”, who Jews and Christians understand to be the Name of GOD. Jesus tells them explicitly with this statement that HE IS GOD. Not “a” god.

There is but One God, who has been revealed to us as triune in nature. The Father beget the Son, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. They are One in Being.

The Mormon understanding of God is extremely flawed, rejecting entirely the Unity of the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Parker:

According to Mormon mythology (mythology is not necessarily false), isn’t it true that an angel, Moroni, appeared to Joseph Smith?

And didn’t that angel say that Joseph needed to start a new Church because all other Churches were in error?

How do you take this passage, then?

Matthew 16:18b - “…upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

The part in bold seems to have been violated.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Jay53,

I agree. That is because He understood perfectly the concept of Oneness, as He expressed in His Intercessory prayer. So His being the Son of God did not mean there were “multiple gods” in the way you use those words nor in the way this thread was started.

The Jewish chief priests didn’t understand that concept of Oneness, at all. They accused Him of blasphemy because they heard Him saying and teaching that He was the Son of God. That was their grounds for having the crucifixion carried out and them feeling they were doing the right thing in the sight of the “One God” they believed in, however incorrect their belief was with regard to the possibility of there being a literal Savior of the world who would be One with the Father.

As you know, He also taught that he was God. Three in One is what Christians believe. How could we have a God that is love without a God that is also loved. Thus the Holy Trinity. Hard concept to wrap your mind around unless you indeed do have the Holy Spirit within you. For me Parker I do have a great sense of the Most Holy Trinity. I could not fully explain this to you, yet I live it every day of my life.

God the God of love and relationship. This is found within God, this is found in everything that exists as God holds all things into existence. God being existence itself, Love itself.

Again as created children of God we as Christians have been given the ability to share in what the Godhead has always shared. Not in a human sense, rather in a heavenly sense. We do not have the ability to truly love unless we align ourselves, surrender ourselves up to the Most Holy Trinity. This is where unconditional love is found. The type of love that allows us to love all as God loves all. Even our enemies.

This ability is given to us by the Father, to the Son, through the Holy Spirit. Love has no other origin but God. There is no God before Him, there will be no God ahead of Him. He is Love, there is no other.

When we die to ourselves this is when we are risen in Him, by Him through Him and entirely for Him. Not for our wives and husbands, grandparents and children as our lives were made for Him. To be loved by Him forever. Together as a community we are drawn to Him and away from each other in a special way that brings us all closer together.

In Him alone will we find our Heavenly family. Again we have to remember that when you speak of oneness you are speaking of a different kind of oneness, a different kind of god than what over a Billion Christians have discovered through divine revelation. You should always add the “one is purpose”, so that we can be reminded of the difference in our faiths, in all honesty and sincerity, as Christians reminded that God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are together One in Being. “God” …Love itself

In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[ParkerD]

They were angry at Jesus because He indicated He is “I AM”, who Jews and Christians understand to be the Name of GOD. Jesus tells them explicitly with this statement that HE IS GOD. Not “a” god.

There is but One God, who has been revealed to us as triune in nature. The Father beget the Son, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. They are One in Being.

The Mormon understanding of God is extremely flawed, rejecting entirely the Unity of the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

RJ,

The verses I had cited to Jay53 showed specifically that the reason they had the Savior crucified was because He did not disagree with them when they said He had said He was the Son of God. Their anger was not shown in any passage of the Bible to have been because He said He was “I AM”. Those are two different concepts, and the chief priests certainly could differentiate and understand that for Him to be saying He was Son of God, meant that He was saying He was God the Son.

I realize there are things “revealed to you” through the ECF and the Nicene Creed, and which use a word “triune” which is neither Biblical nor revealed.

The Jewish chief priests would of course have had the same statement about “extremely flawed” as you have stated, which they showed in their rejection of the Son of God, because they could not accept that there could be such a Savior as the Son of God nor that He could have been born of Mary. I have no problem being placed within the category of going against what the Jewish chief priests believed, which gave them the mistaken thinking that they should have the soldiers crucify Him.

My beliefs, however, do not reject “Unity” at all–they just happen to understand the word, and understand the Savior’s Intercessory prayer.

A wish of peace to all readers, and to you if you can accept that wish.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker:

According to [the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints], isn’t it true that an angel, Moroni, appeared to Joseph Smith?

And didn’t that angel say that Joseph needed to start a new Church because all other Churches were in error?

How do you take this passage, then?

Matthew 16:18b - “…upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

The part in bold seems to have been violated.

Tarkan,

Yes.

Yes.

It isn’t violated at all. “Church” is the translation of a word that means “congregation of believers”, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against His congregation of believers, because they are founded upon the Rock of knowledge of Him and knowledge of how they know He lives–which knowledge comes by revelation through the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit), and which knowledge becomes a protection and a guide for His congregation of believers. This is the knowledge spoken of so commonly by the apostles in their epistles, and by Peter when he said “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

RJ,

The verses I had cited to Jay53 showed specifically that the reason they had the Savior crucified was because He did not disagree with them when they said He had said He was the Son of God. Their anger was not shown in any passage of the Bible to have been because He said He was “I AM”. Those are two different concepts, and the chief priests certainly could differentiate and understand that for Him to be saying He was Son of God, meant that He was saying He was God the Son.

I realize there are things “revealed to you” through the ECF and the Nicene Creed, and which use a word “triune” which is neither Biblical nor revealed.

No ParkerD, it is revealed through Jesus Christ, via the Holy Spirit, as it has for hundreds of years to millions of Christians. You have been taught a lie by Mormon leaders.

Trinity is a word to describe the nature of God. This nature is revealed as ONE GOD, Three Persons. This is clear in scripture.

Polytheism is decried through all of scripture as an error of idolatry. To speak of God as anything but Who He IS, is idolatry. Drop your idolatrous beliefs, seek humility, and worship the One True God Who Created you.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Jay53,

I agree. That is because He understood perfectly the concept of Oneness, as He expressed in His Intercessory prayer. So His being the Son of God did not mean there were “multiple gods” in the way you use those words nor in the way this thread was started.

The Jewish chief priests didn’t understand that concept of Oneness, at all. They accused Him of blasphemy because they heard Him saying and teaching that He was the Son of God. That was their grounds for having the crucifixion carried out and them feeling they were doing the right thing in the sight of the “One God” they believed in, however incorrect their belief was with regard to the possibility of there being a literal Savior of the world who would be One with the Father.

Alright; so if Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are not three separate gods in the way Set, Ra, and Osiris are gods (no, I am not saying your Trinity is made up of Set, Ra, and Osiris), what on Earth ARE they to you?

They are not as a shamrock to you, three persons in one. But they are not three separate plants, either. So please tell us what kind of plant or plants the Trinity are, then? And provide Old and/or New Testament Scripture, and History, if you can, to back up your claims, if you please.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Tarkan,

Yes.

Yes.

It isn’t violated at all. “Church” is the translation of a word that means “congregation of believers”, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against His congregation of believers, because they are founded upon the Rock of knowledge of Him and knowledge of how they know He lives–which knowledge comes by revelation through the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit), and which knowledge becomes a protection and a guide for His congregation of believers. This is the knowledge spoken of so commonly by the apostles in their epistles, and by Peter when he said “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

But according to Moroni, no congregation of believers was correct at that time. Not one of them was guided by the Holy Spirit. In other words, none of the Churches at the time of Joseph Smith were, according to Moroni, protected by the Holy Spirit.

If that were true, how could the gates of Hell prevail against a then non-existent congregation of believers, since all congregations had some degree of incorrectness? Not merely incompleteness. Wrongness.

Maybe I am missing something? Moroni said all Churches had “errors”, correct? Not that they were merely incomplete?

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,

I agree. That is because He understood perfectly the concept of Oneness, as He expressed in His Intercessory prayer. So His being the Son of God did not mean there were “multiple gods” in the way you use those words nor in the way this thread was started.

The Jewish chief priests didn’t understand that concept of Oneness, at all. They accused Him of blasphemy because they heard Him saying and teaching that He was the Son of God. That was their grounds for having the crucifixion carried out and them feeling they were doing the right thing in the sight of the “One God” they believed in, however incorrect their belief was with regard to the possibility of there being a literal Savior of the world who would be One with the Father.

Then why in the world did YOU state that Jesus taught a belief in more than one God???

Originally Posted by ParkerD
Jesus taught very plainly a belief in more than one God, and was killed for that by being horribly crucified.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Yes, it is. They believe that all observant males become “Gods”, with their own planets. It is also NOT a Christian religion by any normal understanding of that term. The Jesus Christ that they believe in is a VERY different being that what is accepted and believed by ALL Christian churches. They have a totally and completely different version of who the Christ really is.

 

[catholic-rcia]

RJ,

The verses I had cited to Jay53 showed specifically that the reason they had the Savior crucified was because He did not disagree with them when they said He had said He was the Son of God. Their anger was not shown in any passage of the Bible to have been because He said He was “I AM”. Those are two different concepts, and the chief priests certainly could differentiate and understand that for Him to be saying He was Son of God, meant that He was saying He was God the Son.

I realize there are things “revealed to you” through the ECF and the Nicene Creed, and which use a word “triune” which is neither Biblical nor revealed .

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that Jesus is God, the eternal Son, One in being with the Father. As do over a billion Christians worldwide. How is it that over a Billion Christians have come to the same revelation?

Parker I see Trinity laced throughout the whole Bible starting in Genesis, I see the Trinity laced like gold in quartz throughout all of the Scriptures. The word Bible is not found in the scriptures as well. Yet we know it as the Holy Bible. Just as we know God as the Holy Trinity.

quote=ParkerD;8096895]RJ,
The Jewish chief priests would of course have had the same statement about “extremely flawed” as you have stated, which they showed in their rejection of the Son of God, because they could not accept that there could be such a Savior as the Son of God nor that He could have been born of Mary. I have no problem being placed within the category of going against what the Jewish chief priests believed, which gave them the mistaken thinking that they should have the soldiers crucify Him. .

In your spiritual life you have yet to go deeper, in admitting that you yourself play a role today in the one Crucifixion of our God.

You see it was not a good man that personally died for your sins Parker, it was God. Who else could do this?

Catholics understand that we all play a part even today every time we sin, just one little lie. Because we have come to understand this battle we can therefore see how much we have been forgiven, how much we are loved in spite of ourselves. This is what leads us out of sin. Our church is not a place for worthy people. It is a place for sinners in need of healing. Why we attend Mass as we are in need of Him so deeply. To carry us home.

quote=ParkerD;8096895]RJ,
My beliefs, however, do not reject “Unity” at all–they just happen to understand the word, and understand the Savior’s Intercessory prayer. .

Unity for Christians is to become together, One with God, just as the Father and Son have always been one. This is true unity, to be one with God. To loose yourself like this is contrary to what your faith teaches. It is not of this world at all. Yet it is where true freedom from sin is found for us Christians.

quote=ParkerD;8096895]RJ,
A wish of peace to all readers, and to you if you can accept that wish.

I can not accept that wish because I know who and what is behind it. But I can accept you Parker and the peace that is from Christ, because of my love for God. In turn I do have love for you. Tons!

Still here my friend
In Christ
www.utahmnission.com

 

[Jim_Dandy]

**Telstar wrote:**You have to have the ‘super secret decoder ring’ upgrade, that works along with your specially monogrammed scrying stone, in order to fully understand the Mormon interpretations of all forms of scripture. It also helps to be wearing your special magical clothing that focuses the power of the stone in a direct path, along the alignment of the moon with Kolob.

Either that, or you just need to continue to completely fail 3rd grade reading comprehension classes. The effect is about the same.

**Korihor wrote:**Too bad we don’t already have faster than light travel or we could warp to the Kolob sector and talk to God in person to have him sort all of this out for us.

:whacky::tiphat: