I guess I’m thinking of “management style” more than wife selection, while Jeffs resembles Smith in his penchant for young wives, his control of his group strikes me as much more like Young.
Tony, first of all thank you for just admitting the Mormon stance instead of trying to sidestep the issue. Do you uunderstand that if Jesus was created then that makes him a creature rather than the Creator? It means that He is not eternal (He had a beginning), not omnipotent (His existence was dependent on a Creator) and really nothing more than us other than His level of exaltation. Is this what you believe?
Why do you put such limitations on God?
Alain, I think most would argue LDS is Henotheistic rather than Polytheistic
Can you demonstrate why his logic is false, though? What, exactly, is false about it? I can understand if you said something like, “God is not bound by logic. So I don’t accept your premise that we can use logic to know anything about the nature of God.” That I get, even if I disagree. What I don’t think you can say, though, is that Steve’s logic is false.
I think this is another point of fundamental disagreement between Mormons and Catholics. We Catholics are very aware that Jews and (especially) Muslims consider us polytheists due to our belief in the Trinity. But here’s the difference: we don’t particularly care.I dare you to ask a Jew or Muslim if the RCC Trinity is Monotheistic
It sounds like you are describing a severe case of Cognitive Dissonance
LOL, and the LDS don’t run around saying they are Catholic. We do say we are Christian based on the common definitions found in the dictionary, and as the ECF would have seen christianity (before Nicea)
Actually, what I’m describing is a severe case of Comfortable With My Own Beliefs. I understand that I do not meet their common definition, and then I tell myself that I do meet my own, different definition that includes a Trinitarian God. And then I move on with my day, confident that my religious beliefs stand on their own and do not need artificial, ahistorical and false ties to an older faith to make my theology seem less alien.
This was one part of your post that I also wanted to address in my earlier post, but I was more intent on trying to explain the differences between the LDS view of the Trinity and the RCC view (which I believe is the only correct one), but I already had a problem trimming that post down to fit within the forum size restrictions. (I know, I do tend to prattle on about spiritual stuff like that.) I was much more focused on trying to describe a simple way that we can visualize how the Trinity can exist as One. I admit, it was probably a poor example that most people would think was stupid, but I gave it my best shot, anyway. Besides, I was up all night long just trying to make that post as clear as possible. My husband got up and left for work while I was still sitting here at my keyboard.
Tony, by your own admission, you were referring to the LDS belief that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were somehow ‘created’ by the Father (no doubt through some kind of interaction with the ‘heavenly goddess’). When I first read that line in your post, the bells and whistles in my head went off, because I know for a fact that no Mormon worth his salt would* ever* come right out and admit to believing in anything like that. Since you are a recent convert to the LDS, I’m sure you will most likely get a PM from another member of the church, sharply rebuking you for such a blatant and grave mistake, and I fully expect to see another post from you, or one of them, stating that you ‘misspoke’, and really didn’t mean it the way it sounded. That’s OK. Sometimes these things happen for a reason. I guess it’s just God’s way of keeping us humble.
BTW… Jay is absolutely correct. The Father did not create Jesus, or the Holy Ghost, as your post implies. They are All Eternal. They had no beginning and They will have no end. They always have, and always will exist, together, forever. The Holy Trinity (One God) created everything in this universe, and if there is any such thing as other universes, then our same One God created all of them, too. There is only One God. Our belief systems are an infinity apart on this subject, so trying to say that they’re ‘almost’ the same, is not even close to being true on any level at all. Some day, I hope you’ll return to the Catholic Church, as I hope my other Mormon friends will as well. :yup:
If there is no problem with your admission that, according to LDS belief, Jesus & the Holy Spirit were created by the Father, then maybe I was wrong that you would be corrected by your LDS friends. But, on the other hand, I don’t really see them jumping up and supporting you in this claim, either. So, I think the jury is still out on that one. I’m sure you’ll let us know when you do get a PM, won’t you?
Aux contraire, Tony! I’m not being difficult at all. (I’ll leave that up to you.) You were the one that insisted that the LDS and RCC belief in the Trinity all boiled down to the same thing, that being a belief in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I was merely pointing out that our definition of the Trinity is absolutely*** not*** the same in any way, shape or form as the one that the LDS believe. If you define that as my ‘being difficult’, then that’s your problem. I do realize that someone telling the truth is sometimes seen by those that don’t want to hear it, as them ‘being difficult’. Sorry, but I don’t pull my punches when someone is trying to undermine the truth.
Why the attitude we are sneaky? Either something is doctrine or it is not.If there is no problem with your admission that, according to LDS belief, Jesus & the Holy Spirit were created by the Father, then maybe I was wrong that you would be corrected by your LDS friends. But, on the other hand, I don’t really see them jumping up and supporting you in this claim, either. So, I think the jury is still out on that one. I’m sure you’ll let us know when you do get a PM, won’t you?
It is quite funny how you cling to this, while our protestant brethern are currently screaming out that RCC is a devil cult, etc. etc. Have you ever been to the RCC forum on CARM? There I’ve read many things about Catholics, or done by Catholics. I am smart enough to know the difference between doctrine and the sins of men.
Telstar, your feints are not punches
Tony, You are ill advised if you think Jewish or Muslim Trinitarian Theology can be used as a point of reference when we are talking about Christian Trinitarian beliefs. Jews and Muslims don’t even believe in the Divinity of Christ nor do they believe God would or could incarnate in our humanity and become man. You really need to study more before you make random statements that fall in refuting Catholic Trinitarianism.Alain, I think most would argue LDS is Henotheistic rather than Polytheistic
I dare you to ask a Jew or Muslim if the RCC Trinity is Monotheistic
Telstar, you should totally make this your new signature.
- I have seen the connection made with “those” that oppose the LDS church., so it fits you in as much as you persecute the LDS church
You see MAJOR confusion because you are a Mormon. These terms have been defined for centuries. MAJOR confusion is used by many Mormons as a defense to understanding Christianity.
Yep. :extrahappy:
I must admit that I’ve been called worse. But, that there’s funny, right there!
Actually, they believe that their “Heavenly Father” has many wives in heaven.
Did you think I was implying that you were sneaky? Why ever would I think that you’d really keep secrets from us?
I’ve never been to “CARM”. I’m guessing it’s some kind of religious forum. I’ve heard it mentioned, here, a few times. By the sounds of it, I imagine it being a lot like another website (religious/political) that turned into an absolute free for all. I peeked at it a couple of times, then never went back.It is quite funny how you cling to this, while our protestant brethern are currently screaming out that RCC is a devil cult, etc. etc. Have you ever been to the RCC forum on CARM? There I’ve read many things about Catholics, or done by Catholics. I am smart enough to know the difference between doctrine and the sins of men.
Now to your inuendo on 1st Nephi 13&14 - I’m guessing you are claiming that LDS believe that the scriptural terms “church of the devil,” the “great and abominable church,” and the “whore of all the earth” refer to the RCC?
Yes, at least they do in ‘private’. Publicly, they deny it. They’ve removed as many references to it as they can. If it’s not in public, no one can prove you believe it.
- I have never been taught this is the meaning. The connection certainly is not in scripture or official Church teachings.
They’ve done a good job of back-peddling and covering their tracks on it, that’s for sure.- I have seen the connection made with “those” that oppose the LDS church, so it fits you in as much as you persecute the LDS church
Is it considered to be ‘persecution’ for anyone to disagree with doctrines that they believe are false? Or, are you feeling persecuted, personally, Tony? Do you disagree with any Catholic doctrine? If so, does that mean that you may have just come to this forum to persecute all of us, here? I don’t think anyone here is being persecuted. We’re discussing religious differences and asking questions. I don’t think that qualifies as ‘persecution’ on either side.- I have read of individuals who have speculated on the meaning and tied it to specific churches or even the Govt. These people, spoke/speculated as individulas, and did not represent the Church or create doctrine.“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven.” Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85
Hmm… ok, it looks like you may be right. It’s not just the RCC, it’s all of Christendom. That does agree with Joseph Smith’s assessment of all Christianity being wrong. We did get top billing, though.
I think I’m smart enough to know the difference “between doctrine and the sins of men”, too, Tony. I just happen to strongly disagree with LDS views. People have been calling the RCC evil since the ‘reformation’, but I’ve never seen anyone write a ‘new gospel’ that goes on and on, describing it in such vivid and blasphemous detail. It’s quite obvious to anyone with half a brain which church/religion Joseph Smith is referring to in the BoM and in the D&C.
