Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-RCIA,

It was an interesting comment to make. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Hebrews 11:10, (though I don’t know how that verse reads in the version of the Bible you use.) Look it up in the KJV, if you have time and wish to understand what I meant. It is describing the motive of Abraham, who is the “heir of the promise” (v. 9). Abraham was not content to go along with the prevailing “thought” or “teachings of men” in his day, including of his own father.

I suppose one could say Abraham’s desire to gain wisdom directly from God does relate to the fact that humankind were placed on earth for that very purpose, by learning to walk by faith but through free will choices including the choice Eve and Adam were given whether to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

By totally missing the plain words of Genesis 3:6 and misjudging Eve, it makes sense that one with that teaching in their background would make the kind of statement you made about Abraham’s having sought and become an “heir of the promise” by having sought “a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God”. It is a totally different attitude about why we are on this earth. One could call it the “Abrahamic attitude” versus the “shame on Eve for desiring wisdom and now we have all this trouble” attitude.

Parker what my post was saying is you are here at a Christian site trying to temp us the same way satan does. You are not here to hear us at all. But that can change. As it did for me.

You can see this tone in your condescending attitude. It comes from pride, and it comes out often.
I see this first of all because I have this in me as well.
But most importantly I have Jesus in my life to counter such sin. Your eyes can be opened and what you would find is a lot of loving Catholics waiting. Go get theology for beginners by Frank Sheed. Let me know that you got it. You have nothing to fear. When you have the cross of Christ in your life all works out for the better. Parker, Will you get the book?

You should also start reading about the lives of the Saints. How Jesus moved in them for the last 2000 years. This opened my own eyes as well. You cannot miss the love for Jesus in each of them. How they all knew they were hopeless sinners without Him.

In Christ
Rich @ www.utahmission.com

 

[Miriam1947]

JohnVIII,

Brigham Young didn’t clarify what it was he meant by his statements that were picked up in the newspapers. He may have meant that Adam is the Ancient of Days and is Michael the Archangel, or that Adam presents his posterity to Christ and gives Christ the keys near the beginning of the Millenium, but in any case he was presenting his own personal beliefs about Adam, and it was never “taught” other than in those few talks where it wasn’t clarified what he meant by his statements.

Being one with God is not polytheism, unless that is going to be a new definition of the word and it is going to reference John 17 as the source of the new definition.

Parker do you believe that Adam is Michael the Archangel and gave Christ the keys?

You do know, don’t you, that angels are never men but created spirits? You do know that Christ gave the keys to Peter, don’t you?

Because you do have the KJV so you should know that since you quote it so often.

And Parker what does this mean? . . . Adam presents his posterity to Christ . . .

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi Cal,

Do you know that in the fourth century after her founding by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church selected 27 of her own writings (written during the first Christian century), canonized them, and named them the New Testament? In the very same Councils of Rome (A.D. 382), Hippo (393) and Carthage III (397) and IV (419), the Church also canonized (or reaffirmed) 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named Tá Biblia, the Bible. In summary, the Catholic Church wrote, canonized, and named the NT, canonized and named the OT, and compiled and named the Bible. She was a very old lady at the time. Christ didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. The Church produced the book, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Proof-texting, which you are asking of us, is strictly a Protestant ploy. The Bible has to be read holistically, and in context, to be understood. The context in which the NT was written was the heart of the living, believing, teaching Catholic Church.

The idea of the “Bible Only” dates from the 16th century. The Bible doesn’t teach it.

We’re off topic here. Back to polytheism. I will assume that you read only 33% of the link I posted, which explains the multiple gods of Mormonism, because you weren’t interested in the subject. Which causes me to wonder why you chose to participate in this thread. Perhaps you’ll explain.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy

Hi Jim,

Catholic Church history: I have some knowledge of what you mentioned but surely not as much as you have. I do find it interesting, and on a list of books I want to purchase is a book on the origin of the creeds.
If I wanted to be smart-alecky, as you have been, I would ask you why the Catholic church also burned thousands of wonderful lovers of Jesus at the stake during the Inquisition, but that wouldn’t be constructive, so I’ll let that go!

You said, “The Bible has to be read holistically, and in context, to be understood.”

I agree with that completely.

Thanks for checking out my link. I read only 33% of your article because (1) I have limited time, (2) I’m quite familiar already with the charges against the LDS, and (3) I’d rather concentrate on truth. If you concentrate on truth (the Bible or other anointed stuff that agrees with it), you grow in the Lord; if you focus too much on the crazy falsehoods of Mormonism you begin to lose your discernment.

Peace be with you, my brother. (I’m assuming Christ is living in your heart—is that correct?)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hmmm. The Lord revealed “stuff” to you about Mormonism “by his grace”? :bowdown:

And you feel it is your obligation to pass this “stuff” on to the posters on this thread so that those of us to whom God didn’t reveal this secret knowledge will get the message? Have I got that right?

Thanks,

Jim Dandy

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Cal_Fullerton:
Making fun of me isn’t going to lend to a constructive conversation.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Salvation is defined several different ways in Mormonism. The LDS publication True to the Faith, 151f, says it can mean salvation from physical death, sin, ignorance, being born again, the second death, or eternal life (exaltation). As you know, the last item differs from our concept of it, but most of the definitions are fine, in my opinion. (And you know how smart I am. )

 

[RebeccaJ]

Salvation is defined several different ways in Mormonism. The LDS publication True to the Faith, 151f, says it can mean salvation from physical death, sin, ignorance, being born again, the second death, or eternal life (exaltation). As you know, the last item differs from our concept of it, but most of the definitions are fine, in my opinion. (And you know how smart I am. )

More than the last item differ from Christian concepts.

 

[JohnVIII]

JohnVIII,

Brigham Young didn’t clarify what it was he meant by his statements…

Not true. There are several dozen recorded statement by Brigham Young on this subject. He made it very clear to everyone what he believed. Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt was excommunicated for not agreeing with Brigham Young on this matter. I personally spoke with Mormon Apostle Mark E. Peterson in his office in Salt Lake City on this matter and he said that Brigham Young did make it very clear that he believed Adam was God the Father, although he also said that none of the Mormon leaders today believe this. Bruce McConkie also has made statements confirming that Brigham Young did teach Adam-God as a doctrine of the Church. FYI, the “Lecture before the Veil” in the Mormon temple in the form that it was in the time of Brigham Young explicitly taught the Adam-God doctrine.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hmmm. hmmm, hmmm:: Don’t Catholics say the same thing? Why do we think that the Gospel of Thomas is suspect enough to be kept out of the Canon? Why do we believe that Trent is definitive? etc. etc. Of course, we pick the Holy Spirit to keep us on track, but it is hard to see any actual difference between the action of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of the Lord.

Why would anyone think that a Mormon would be impressed by an argument that doubts the efficacy of the Lord’s Grace to return the Mormons to the true path, especially if he believes that the “apostasy” of the Church proves that the Church must not have followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

No, (most) Catholics don’t claim to receive secret knowledge from God by special, private revelation, as does Mr. Fullerton. And if they do, we’re skeptical.

The Church is not based on the NT. The NT is based on the living, teaching Church who wrote it. So whether you think the so-called Gospel of Thomas should have been accepted or not is irrelevant. The teaching of the Church comes from the Apostles, not from the NT. The NT confirms her teachings, but is not their source. Why do I believe the Church is led by the Spirit? Because the Church founded by Christ, the God-Man, for the salvation of the world, says so! The Church speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16). That is why I believe Trent – or any other Council. The Church is literally the Body of Christ, His Bride.

The Holy Spirit, I’m sure I don’t need to tell you, is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Grace is the supernatural gift that God, in his benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their salvation. It is a gift freely given. There are different kinds: actual, efficacious, gratuitous, habitual, justifying, sacramental, sanating, sufficient, and sanctifying grace. An example of actual grace would be the impulse which caused me to begin my study of the Catholic Church when I was a contented atheist. Sanctifying grace is the Divine Life of God which Catholics receive in the Eucharist, in Confession, and in the Anointing of the Sick.

Anyone who believes in the so-called “apostasy” calls Christ a liar.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hi Jim,

Catholic Church history: I have some knowledge of what you mentioned but surely not as much as you have. I do find it interesting, and on a list of books I want to purchase is a book on the origin of the creeds.
If I wanted to be smart-alecky, as you have been, I would ask you why the Catholic church also burned thousands of wonderful lovers of Jesus at the stake during the Inquisition, but that wouldn’t be constructive, so I’ll let that go!

You said, “The Bible has to be read holistically, and in context, to be understood.”

I agree with that completely.

Thanks for checking out my link. I read only 33% of your article because (1) I have limited time, (2) I’m quite familiar already with the charges against the LDS, and (3) I’d rather concentrate on truth. If you concentrate on truth (the Bible or other anointed stuff that agrees with it), you grow in the Lord; if you focus too much on the crazy falsehoods of Mormonism you begin to lose your discernment.

Peace be with you, my brother. (I’m assuming Christ is living in your heart—is that correct?)

Sorry, I haven’t read your link.

And peace be with you, Cal. Please add to the list of books you’re planning to read Diane Moczar’s *Seven Lies About Catholic History. *She’s a genuine, accredited, university-trained historian who has debunked in one little book the “infamous myths about the Church’s past.” Your charge that the “Catholic church also burned thousands of wonderful lovers of Jesus at the stake during the Inquisition” is one of the Black Legends perpetrated and perpetuated by Protestants since the Deformation.

Moczar’s little book, Catholic History is also an excellent read.

Here’s a short article by another real historian on the subject of the Inquisition:
old.nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

But this is off topic, and the moderators will scold us.

Back to Mormon polytheism.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Making fun of me isn’t going to lend to a constructive conversation.

I’m sorry. I apologize if you felt I was making fun of you. I thought your claim to have received a special, secret revelation from God was a bit much. I thought SteveVH’s post #905 was right on. It was my attempt at humor. Forgive me if you were offended.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Heavenly Father was once a Man just like Jesus Christ and lived on an earth, per the teachings of Joseph Smith. This does not mean I know or we know or anyone knows how Heavenly Father came to be on the earth where He lived and resurrected Himself. Some have assumed, and that is OK for them, but I don’t make the assumption that I know the answer to that kind of question. Nor do I need to know the answer–it is not important to me. Joseph Smith taught that the Supreme Ruler of the universe is self-existing; and that we are self-existing (to a lesser extent) in that we have an “intelligence” that is part of our spirit, and that “intelligence” is self-existing. So God organized our spirit from an existing “intelligence” that makes you completely unique from anyone else in the universe, and your children completely unique.

But you have been told the answer - do you disagree with it?

I will preach on the plurality of Gods… Our text says, ‘And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.’ The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above… My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370

“Our Father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a Father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father, until we come to a stop where we cannot go further, because of our limited capacity to understand.” —LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (who became Mormonism’s 10th Prophet) Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 47

The underlying question I think you are getting at again, is whether God the Father had a Father, and the answer again is “I don’t know” but if so, then They are one, not through the atonement of Christ but because through Their knowledge, love, and unity They are One in all attributes and One in complete omnipotence, complete unity of thought and will, and complete perfection.

Parker - obviously you cannot answer this question because it proves that Mormons are polytheistic. If you say that God’s parents were of divine nature, that would make them gods. If you say they were human, then you would have to state where they came from.

Absolutely illogical and a question that cannot be answered which is why you are saying “I don’t know.”

Please give me an LDS website that I can go to ask this question. Thanks.

ps - this really proves the logic in Catholic theology when discussing God

 

[ParkerD]

But you have been told the answer - do you disagree with it?

I will preach on the plurality of Gods… Our text says, ‘And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.’ The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above… My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370

“Our Father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a Father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father, until we come to a stop where we cannot go further, because of our limited capacity to understand.” —LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (who became Mormonism’s 10th Prophet) Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 47

Parker - obviously you cannot answer this question because it proves that Mormons are polytheistic. If you say that God’s parents were of divine nature, that would make them gods. If you say they were human, then you would have to state where they came from.

Absolutely illogical and a question that cannot be answered which is why you are saying “I don’t know.”

Please give me an LDS website that I can go to ask this question. Thanks.

ps - this really proves the logic in Catholic theology when discussing God

Lax16,

Jesus lived on the earth, was called “Man of Holiness”, and was divine and is divine. I never said, nor would I, that “they were human”. The Joseph Smith quote says “the same as Jesus Christ Himself did”–which is clear and to the point. Jesus was divine when He lived on this earth and walked with the apostles and taught them.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker do you believe that Adam is Michael the Archangel and gave Christ the keys?

You do know, don’t you, that angels are never men but created spirits? You do know that Christ gave the keys to Peter, don’t you?

Because you do have the KJV so you should know that since you quote it so often.

And Parker what does this mean? . . . Adam presents his posterity to Christ . . .

Miriam1947,

Those are future events, described in Daniel 7, yet to occur on this earth before its end. Adam, the Ancient of Days, will present his posterity to Christ and rejoice that Christ presents them to the Father as having been prepared for their resurrection through His atoning grace and through righteous holders of the priesthood having done the covenant keeping that needed to be done to prepare for the resurrection. The covenant keeping involves the sealing power and the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant.

There is no Biblical passage that says “angels are never men”.

Peter received different keys than the keys held by the Ancient of Days, kind of like “delegated keys” due to delegation of authority.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I’m sorry. I apologize if you felt I was making fun of you. I thought your claim to have received a special, secret revelation from God was a bit much. I thought SteveVH’s post #905 was right on. It was my attempt at humor. Forgive me if you were offended.

Peace, Jim Dandy

You’re forgiven.
I wasn’t so much offended as I was just trying to steer our conversations toward the useful category.
I’ve blogged enough to know that after you get to know someone, it’s easier to play around with humor. Otherwise, it’s hard to tell where someone’s coming from.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Please add to the list of books you’re planning to read Diane Moczar’s Seven Lies About Catholic History.

Done.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

More than the last item differ from Christian concepts.

You are free to explain further, Rebecca. I will listen. (If you need to read my message again, it was Message #940, I believe.)
Have a nice day.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Cal - If this is all it takes, then why send LDS missionaries by the tens of thousands, out into (usually Catholic areas of) the world?

As long as there are LDS missionaries knocking on doors, there will be Catholics like SteveVH and Jim Dandy to speak the truth about the One True Church started by Jesus Christ Himself.

After all, Catholics are missionaries too!

Hi Lax16!

Since we’re off subject, I’ll be brief.
Mormons don’t think this is all it takes. The Bible does.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

How long have you been Mormon?

Nice to meet you, Stephen.
I’m not a Mormon. Never have been. Never will be.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

If you don’t believe [Joseph Smith], then who created the world and how did s/he they/it do it?

The Bible says repeatedly that God created the world through Jesus. That’s what I believe.