Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[ParkerD]

Parker - Who were the parents of God?
JS says here that God did not always exist - where did he come from?
He was once a man - who were his parents?

"it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and suppose that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did… Here then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priest to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-47; emphasis added).

Lax16,

Joseph Smith didn’t say God did not always exist. He said in the same Sermon that God is self-existing. The idea that God “has parents” can certainly be inferred from the statement above, and Joseph Fielding Smith seems to have inferred that, but as far as I’m concerned, it is not “settled doctrine” and whether it is or is not so, I don’t know. But if it is, then They are One God also with the same omnipotence as our Heavenly Father has.

Heavenly Father lived on an earth, “the same as Jesus Christ Himself did”, which means He did that in another universe before this universe was “created” (organized from dis-organized matter and energy). He could have been the First Man of Holiness.

When our eternity began as far as its order and organization, He was God from all eternity and is God to all eternity. But He came from another universe to create (organize) ours.

 

[Miriam1947]

Lax16,

Joseph Smith didn’t say God did not always exist. He said in the same Sermon that God is self-existing. The idea that God “has parents” can certainly be inferred from the statement above, and Joseph Fielding Smith seems to have inferred that, but as far as I’m concerned, it is not “settled doctrine” and whether it is or is not so, I don’t know. But if it is, then They are One God also with the same omnipotence as our Heavenly Father has.

Heavenly Father lived on an earth, “the same as Jesus Christ Himself did”, which means He did that in another universe before this universe was “created” (organized from dis-organized matter and energy). He could have been the First Man of Holiness.

When our eternity began as far as its order and organization, He was God from all eternity and is God to all eternity. But He came from another universe to create (organize) ours.

Parker it basically comes down to you do not believe in GOD the creator. I believe that GOD created all things but GOD was not created. He has always been, will always be. You cannot, no matter how hard you try, get to the first cause.

The first cause is GOD.

 

[mwok]

ParkerD

I would also like to add that God created everything out of nothing, not pre-existing matter.
That would just be rearranging matter, and anyone can do that. God made existence out of non-existence.

I would also like to point out that the doctrine of pre-existence was taught by Origen of Alexandria in the 3rd century. This, however, was found to be heresy, the only heresy that he taught. He also believed that we consume the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

Something else that Origen spoke on:

Though our understanding is unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the world from the beauty of his works and the comeliness of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being a body or existing in a body, but as a uncompounded intellectual nature, admitting in himself no addition of any kind
Fundamental Doctrines1:1:6(c.A.D.225)

John, in his Gospel, when asserting that “no one has seen God at any time,” declares to all who are capable of understanding that there is no nature to which God is visible: he is not a being who is visible by nature, but escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature; by the nature of his being it is impossible for him to be seen
Fundamental Doctrines1:1:8

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Joseph Smith didn’t say God did not always exist. He said in the same Sermon that God is self-existing. The idea that God “has parents” can certainly be inferred from the statement above, and Joseph Fielding Smith seems to have inferred that, but as far as I’m concerned, it is not “settled doctrine” and whether it is or is not so, I don’t know. But if it is, then They are One God also with the same omnipotence as our Heavenly Father has.

Heavenly Father lived on an earth, “the same as Jesus Christ Himself did”, which means He did that in another universe before this universe was “created” (organized from dis-organized matter and energy). He could have been the First Man of Holiness.

When our eternity began as far as its order and organization, He was God from all eternity and is God to all eternity. But He came from another universe to create (organize) ours.

JS lifted the veil on the (mis)understanding that God always existed as God - saying that he was once a man.
So, no, God did not always exist as God - he was once a man as we were (and we are not divine, are we?) Since God and Jesus are separate, as Mormons believe, then they are not the same being. Which means he (God as a human) had parents.
Who were the parents of the human God? So God, as a human, was one with his godly parents?
Two gods producing a divine human? This does sound like Greek mythology.

 

[lax16]

Parker it basically comes down to you do not believe in GOD the creator. I believe that GOD created all things but GOD was not created. He has always been, will always be. You cannot, no matter how hard you try, get to the first cause.

The first cause is GOD.

 

[mwok]

JS lifted the veil on the (mis)understanding that God always existed as God - saying that he was once a man.
So, no, God did not always exist as God - he was once a man as we were (and we are not divine, are we?) Since God and Jesus are separate, as Mormons believe, then they are not the same being. Which means he (God as a human) had parents.
Who were the parents of the human God? So God, as a human, was one with his godly parents?
Two gods producing a divine human? This does sound like Greek mythology.

Greek mythology! BRAVO!

Zues and Hercules anyone?

 

[ParkerD]

JS lifted the veil on the (mis)understanding that God always existed as God - saying that he was once a man.
So, no, God did not always exist as God - he was once a man as we were (and we are not divine, are we?) Since God and Jesus are separate, as Mormons believe, then they are not the same being. Which means he (God as a human) had parents.
Who were the parents of the human God? So God, as a human, was one with his godly parents?
Two gods producing a divine human? This does sound like Greek mythology.

That’s because you continue to be all mixed up about this as these mis-statements show, and have shown that you don’t believe God and Jesus are “separate”, even though other Catholics evidently do from what they have written on this thread.

 

[mwok]

Mwok,

Oh.

If I understand where your question is coming from, then the words “Jesus’ plan” are talking about the pre-mortal council in heaven. That question has a wrong premise.

In that council in heaven, Heavenly Father presented His plan, and Jesus was in total agreement with Heavenly Father’s plan. Jesus already had “glory” of being God as God the Son at that point. He was already God’s Beloved Only Begotten Son who was known by us as having that unique role, and was perfect including perfectly loving with perfect love for us, and perfectly perfect in desiring Heavenly Father’s will be done including that all “glory” (meaning what one could call “credit for the plan and for carrying it out”) should go to Heavenly Father for His plan of salvation, which does indeed include free will choice. Jesus acted from His own free will choice to completely sustain and accept Heavenly Father’s plan, and to say, “Here am I, send me” when asked who was willing to be sent to this earth and be the Redeemer and Savior of humankind when the time came to do that.

Jesus’ intercessory prayer shows that He has sustained Heavenly Father’s plan, and understands that the glory He as God the Son had in pre-mortal life is the glory He will still have when He returns to His Father as the resurrected Jesus Christ, the resurrected Immanuel, the resurrected Jehovah. That prayer also shows that Jesus was asking that humankind be one with Them.

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah42:8 KJV

In Jn 17:1 it states: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:”

 

[mwok]

Catholics don’t believe God the Father and Jesus to be seperate. On the contrary, they are not “One in Purpose”, but One in Being. One in purpose would imply that all the righteous are God in that they do Gods will.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Holy Trinity has been explained to ParkerD numerous times, yet, he still insists on his Mormon overlay of belief. Conflating separation with distinction is just one perpetual error.

 

[Stephen168]

Did you read the following quote of Joseph?:
“Each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘One God,’ meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fullness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith.”

Do you have a reference for this quote made by Joseph Smith?

When Joseph talked about the plurality of Gods, in my mind he meant nothing more than that the Father is Ruler, Jesus is Ruler, and the Holy Spirit is Ruler—and together they form one Ruler.

Do you have a reference of a quote from Joseph Smith that would lead to to this assumption?

Although I respect ex-Mormons, I don’t count them as the final authorities on what the LDS believes. Would you want me to judge you on the basis of what your enemies have said about you? Without giving you a chance to defend yourself?

This is VERY common irrational logic used by Mormons to defend their Church. The truth is the truth; it doesn’t matter who says it.

I’m not a Mormon. Never have been. Never will be.

Do you believe Mormonism is a polytheistic religion?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is a Mormon teaching, that those who leave Mormonism are “apostates”, and therefore the “enemy”. Which, I don’t think of myself as an enemy of Mormonism. Certainly, I’m not a supporter.

I just see it as a cultish sort of behavior, and some outside of Mormonism have apparently fallen for it. Such is life. It used to aggravate me, especially coming from Christians, who seem to give the benefit of the doubt to a non-Christian group over a person who has been there, done that, and by the grace of God has been led to Jesus Christ. Somehow, everyone thinks we suddenly forgot what we were taught as Mormons, or, just plain started making stuff up. We don’t get our sources from so-called “anti-Mormon” websites, our source is our own experience.

Most Mormons purposely obscure what they truly believe, that is just a fact. ParkerD has spent months here obscuring his beliefs about God and finally in this thread, he has admitted to his belief of following a god that is the god of this universe who had a father who is a god of another universe.

But that isn’t polythesim. :ehh:

 

[ParkerD]

Catholics don’t believe God the Father and Jesus to be seperate. On the contrary, they are not “One in Purpose”, but One in Being. One in purpose would imply that all the righteous are God in that they do Gods will.

So I now have a general question for you or any Catholic. Do your beliefs mean that according to those beliefs, God the Father and Jesus have individuality as “distinct Persons” but that They don’t have individuality as “Separate Persons”?

 

[mwok]

“They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin”

From the CCC:

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255
The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256
St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian,” entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down . . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God . . . the three considered together. . . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . . .92

 

[lax16]

That’s because you continue to be all mixed up about this as these mis-statements show, and have shown that you don’t believe God and Jesus are “separate”, even though other Catholics evidently do from what they have written on this thread.

No, go back and read all of my posts on this thread. I have NEVER mentioned anything about God and Jesus being separate!

I have strictly focused on the fact that Mormons believe and have been taught that God was once a man - which leads to the question -

1. Who were the parents of this man-god?

And that Mormons believe and have been taught that God had a father, and his father had a father, and so on - which leads to the question -
2. Were these fathers (and I am assuming mothers) gods as well?

There is simply no logical LDS answer - Mormons say they are monotheistic when prophets have clearly stated there are other gods. Being illogical is not of God.
Speaking in circles is not of God.

 

[lax16]

Most Mormons purposely obscure what they truly believe, that is just a fact. ParkerD has spent months here obscuring his beliefs about God and finally in this thread, he has admitted to his belief of **following a god that is the god of this universe who had a father who is a god of another universe.

But that isn’t polythesim. :ehh:**

BINGO!!!

 

[ParkerD]

lax16:
BINGO!!!

Lax16,

I have been specific about the words I have used to express my beliefs, and RJ has misquoted them as have you.

But still unanswered is why Catholics disregard and seem to think Christ’s intercessory prayer is inaccessible to them, other than through a clearly “mysterious”, speculative, and non-Biblical doctrine about the Eucharist as compared with the specificity of the intercessory prayer.

 

[Miriam1947]

Lax16,

I have been specific about the words I have used to express my beliefs, and RJ has misquoted them as have you.

But still unanswered is why Catholics disregard and seem to think Christ’s intercessory prayer is inaccessible to them, other than through a clearly “mysterious”, speculative, and non-Biblical doctrine about the Eucharist as compared with the specificity of the intercessory prayer.

What? The Eucharist is not Biblical? What Bible do you use?

gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+6

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread [3] the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus [4] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

So, how much do you believe of what Jesus said? 36 verses just here to tell you to eat His flesh and drink His blood or you have no life in you.

 

[catholic-rcia]

That’s because you continue to be all mixed up about this as these mis-statements show, and have shown that you don’t believe God and Jesus are “separate”, even though other Catholics evidently do from what they have written on this thread.

Did you buy the book? By Frank Sheed?

Parker all the Catholics I hang with have a great sense of exactly who God is. You see this is the divine revelation that we have received as Christians. If I thought of God as being once like me my faith life would be dead on arrival.

I have a great sense of the Holy Trinity in my life. I received this through the RCIA along with my Baptism and the reality of the Trinity is the reality of my life with Jesus. Just last week an employee of mine received a DUI. After I did what I do as a mere sinner I felt that I should pray about this. About an hour later upon Gods request I am standing in Wal-Mart buying a bike for him. He says “I did not have to do this for him.” I said” I did not do this for you, God did”

He is a non believer and I love this kid only because of Jesus in my life! This is authentic joy.

I am the one who wanted to hold on to my money. God is the one who made me (free will choice of course) get him a bike. As a Catholic I can see this clearly. Mormons do not see this clearly because they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, they do not understand this dying to self, this majestic Cross that hangs in our Churches and homes. While you are out earning your recommends we are throwing them away through our confessions.

While you are going up we are gladly going down. It’s on the hard concrete that our Lord is found. He is in the trenches with sinners like us. When we have nothing to gain, when we come to Him with emptiness this is when things get done. This is when you buy a bike or give all that you have left.

The battle is in taking the credit, not giving it where all credit is due. To God alone through His Son, by the Holy Spirit. You have to have a sense of the Trinity. Does this make you better? No, not at all. As matter of fact it should make everyone else better in your eyes. Even the drunk who just got out of prison begging in the streets.

Jesus zeros in on those like that. (US) This is why the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization on this earth. Not to shine, rather to shine the light on the Cross. This is where true Christian meaning and belonging is found. at the foot of the Cross.

 

[ParkerD]

What? The Eucharist is not Biblical? What Bible do you use?

…

So, how much do you believe of what Jesus said? 36 verses just here to tell you to eat His flesh and drink His blood or you have no life in you.

Miriam,

In the sense expressed in John 6, I do “eat His flesh” and “drink His blood” and thus have life through Him, through His atoning grace.

But His atoning grace means it is possible to become “perfected in Him”, and that requires repentance and believing in Him as the living Son of God and the Good Shepherd who is the Master Teacher. It means I believe in continuous change toward “be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.”