Is Mormonism Christian ?

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mfbukowski said:
Unbelievable.

“Can’t we all just get along?”

Sure abandon my position and then you will get along with me just fine won’t you?

This is like the Palestinians saying to the Israelis “Can’t we just get along? Abandon your country and everything will be fine”

Not likely.
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I’m guessing you missed my sarcasm mfbukowski. Sorry for the miscommunication.

in Christ
Steph
 
mfbukowski said:
You know the BOM teaches one God in three persons. I don’t care if you call me Christian or not. I rejoice in Mormonism. I know that Jesus Christ suffered and died for me and has been and is the savior of my life.

Sticks and stone swill break my bones but names will never hurt me. 😛 Lie all you like. You will be held accountable for it. I don’t know how much because most of it is in ignorance… I hope for your sakes.
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Wait a minute. You are calling me a Liar? Please point out one single place where I have lied about your beliefs. Please.

in Christ
Steph
 
mfbukowski said:
Totally untrue! I don’t know where you get this stuff!?

Jesus Christ is the center of my entire life. The name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ. We pray every prayer in his name. We worship him and adore him as the savior of the world, as God, and as the Word, or Jehovah, Yahweh of the old testament, he is the creator and organizer of this universe.

The gospel of Jesus Christ has transformed my life inside and out through his healing grace. I was an alchoholic and drug addict in my early years and it was through Jesus Christ that I have been transformed. Jesus Christ is preached in the Book of Mormon. All the temple ordinances are centered around Jesus Christ. These are nothing but lies and distortions.

Don’t tell me I am not Christian. Believe what you like – I honestly don’t care who you call christian or not. But don’t for one second dare to tell me that I do not believe in Jesus Christ. I would die for him and my beliefs without a moment’s hesitation.

Say what you will — it is foolish and petty. You just don’t understand us at all and make no effort to do so.

You believe cartoons and caricatures of what we believe invented by anti mormon liars. If you want to believe that, go ahead.

It is like me taking Jack Chick as a true source of knowledge about Catholicism. If you want to know about Mormons, ask Mormons.
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I have close personal friends who are Mormons. I know plenty of Mormons. I’ve been steeped in Mormonism since I was a child. Don’t tell me that I don’t know anything about Mormonism. I probably know more than you’re comfortable with, that’s all. Want me to start describing temple ordinances? I can. Want me to talk about the secret handshakes? I can.

Say what you will, you DO NOT pray TO Jesus. And that was my point, one you did not address. You may pray in His name, you DO NOT pray TO Him. You pray to “Heavenly Father”. In the Mormon pantheon Jesus comes across as a subordinate of “Heavenly Father”.

It’s nice that you have changed your life for the better. That doesn’t make Mormonism true. Father Corapi had a similar experience to one you have described earlier in his life. He’s a Catholic priest. I’m glad you got well. I’m sorry that you fell for the heresy of Mormonism.

I don’t lie and I do not appreciate the name calling you are dishing out. I am not a liar and I submit that calling me one is, at the very least, against forum rules. How very uncharitable of you to indulge in the sort of name-calling you have heaped on me.

Mormonism is not Christian by any traditional understanding of the word. You may reference Jesus, but He is a different Jesus than the rest of us worship (and we actually do worship Him.) You may include the Holy Spirit in your Godhead, but it is clearly a different Holy Spirit, since the one that interacts with you has an entirely different message ~ yet there can be only ONE REAL Holy Spirit. You may worship God, or as Mormons seem to prefer to call Him ~ Heavenly Father ~ but it is a different God than the one we worship. Ours does not have a body of “flesh and bone”.

Clearly, although Mormonism may have co-opted the terminology, Mormonism is not Christian in the sense of the rest of Christianity. It is deceptive for missionaries to continue to go about the world preaching their message without making the distinctions. Yet they rely on this sort of deception, without which they would certainly fail in their attempts to convert.

I’m happy to be able to say I belong to a church that has no need to hide their theology.
 
Arandur said:
Paul received his mission by private revelation and he taught that public revelation which Christ revealed in his coming. Paul does NOT say anything about not following the Magisterium, pope, or Tradition. He does say (right here) to follow the Gospel preached by the Apostles, talks about Peter’s role as head of the Apostles elsewhere, and tells us to follow Tradition elsewhere (2 Thess 2:15, I believe; it is under discussion in another thread). Since Magisterium is another word for the apostolic authority, pope is another word for the Petrine office, and Tradition is, well, the very Tradition Paul speaks of elsewhere, Paul actually says the exact opposite of what you claim. He in fact tells us to follow those things.

Could you elaborate on why you think there is a difference there? Why something might need to be “restored” if it wasn’t lost or broken? How that can happen without Satan prevailing against God?
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Come on dude, you’re burning me out here.
Obviously he doesn’t mention the magesterium which did not exist in his time. Neither did the pope.

You talk about tradition but are too lazy to look up the quote from some other thread.

Well that goes two ways. I wrote most of the replies to a long thread about the gates of hell prophecy. Go look it up. It’s not the current one.

The bottom line is that the gates of hell prophecy is about the gates of hell being opened up by the keys of work for the dead that Peter the church and Jesus had.

That’s for another thread, and has been done ad nauseum.
 
Arandur said:
I don’t see your connection. Also, you might want to check out some modern historical scholarship on those events. I bet you share common misconceptions about them.

So you say that if false teachings keep cropping up and people choose to leave the Church or even break away from it in groups, that this is evidence that the foundation of Truth the Church is built on has failed, been broken?

What of the breakaway groups and false teachings that occur to the LDS church? Be consistent, now. As I keep pointing out, you really must be careful how you attack the Church or defend your own. This is another example where your attack, if true, would defeat your own church as well.
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I am consistent. As you all have taught me, partial apostasies don’t prove full apostasies. 😉
 
Arandur said:
Really now? Show me where it was disproven. Explain to me the argument or link me to it.

And why is it so objectionable to you?

By “contemporary philosopher,” do you mean “atheist?” Or am I allowed to use non-Catholic believers in God? If so, we have a famous example in C.S. Lewis, but it won’t be hard to find others, ones who are still alive.

Wrong. I gave you one answer and explained why I wouldn’t get into the rest–it would derail this thread enormously further. There are time reasons as well. I also did provide good starting points for you to go to find the answers. You could just try Google, as well, or Catholic Encyclopedia, or G.K. Chesterton, or conciliar documents, or Theology of the Body, or the Catechism, or ask a good priest or apologist. The answers to your questions are often so common and prevalent that your assertion is just ridiculous. Hence my amusement.
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Read Hobbes, Hume or anybody since. Post Kant. Lewis is not a philosopher. Chesterton is not a philosopher. Most parish priests I know are Catholic. I am talking about someone who makes his living as a philosopher has published in philosophical journals and is acknowledged by the philosophical community as one of their peers. Find one who isn’t catholic. Good luck. What is your philosophical background that you would even know? You don’t argue like one.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Yes, they are revelations…think back a couple of hours…Revelation that pertains to the Salvation of all mankind. These are doctrine. .
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So the “clarification” about Limbo – revelation or not? Yes or no?
 
mfbukowski said:
Read Hobbes, Hume or anybody since. Post Kant. Lewis is not a philosopher. Chesterton is not a philosopher. Most parish priests I know are Catholic. I am talking about someone who makes his living as a philosopher has published in philosophical journals and is acknowledged by the philosophical community as one of their peers. Find one who isn’t catholic. Good luck. What is your philosophical background that you would even know? You don’t argue like one.
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The request was:
Show me where it was disproven. Explain to me the argument or link me to it.
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You haven’t answered the question.
 
RebeccaJ said:
The confusion is no on the part of us Catholics. We are in agreement. You seem to not be grasping that we define revelation in two ways. Which, we have discussed before.

Also, the catechism is quite clear about revelation.

Yes, this is what we believe about the councils. Same thing for when a pope is selected. I had never checked out the whole goings on for selecting a pope. I read about it recently. Very prayer and Eucharist centered.

Authority given to the Apostles who gave that authority to the Bishops by the laying on of hands. Apostolic succession, every Bishop has it.

Mormons lack this authority.
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I think we are closer than you think.

Let me change a few words.

"The confusion is no on the part of us Mormons. We are in agreement. You seem to not be grasping that we define revelation in two ways. Which, we have discussed before.

Also, the scriptures are quite clear about revelation.

Yes, this is what we believe about the conferences. Same thing for when a prophet is selected. I had never checked out the whole goings on for selecting a prophet. I read about it recently. Very prayer and sacrament centered.

Authority given to the Apostles who gave that authority to the Bishops by the laying on of hands. Apostolic succession, every Bishop has it.

Catholics lack this authority
 
Arandur said:
Perhaps another example will help. When Scripture is interpreted, is it properly interpreted just on the basis of the sentence in question, or in the context of the entire body of Scripture, or at least the rest of the book in which it is written?

Any issue is properly considered in context of what can help you figure out its meaning or what to do. In this way, Christian should choose to act within the context of what he knows of Christ. Since Christ lives in the Church and intended his followers to do so as well, Christ intends that we make our choices and inform our beliefs in the context of the Church.

The Church calls us to follow our consciences, yes, but to properly form our consciences. We can err when we make our decisions because we are foolish humans; what we may think is following our conscience can be being led astray. We do the best we can, but that’s why we try to form and train our consciences to a better pursuit of Christ who is Truth.
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Context of entire body of scripture.
As above, I agree with all this. Word for word, with the understanding I am refering to a different church!
 
RebeccaJ said:
I am pretty darn certain that look is not Catholic. Or Mormon.
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Irrelevant. God leads us from where we are to where he wants us to be. Mormnonism was not working for you. Are you closer to Christ now? I suspect yes. Then it was the right move for you. Catholicism was not right for me. I am closer to Christ as a Mormon. I like all those explanations and fewer mysteries. To me it shows more truth is available as a Mormon. But the important thing is that we are now both closer to Christ. That’s the main thing.

I was talking to an anti mormon evangelical last week and I am pretty convinced that he is also on the right path for him.

All of this is said with the proviso “for now”. I firmly believe that all of you, when you really understand what I believe, really understand it with none of the linguistic barriers, that you will believe as I do. It may be after we are all dead, but “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ”.

I am convinced that we all will be on the same page someday.

The only barriers we have to having it now are culture pride and linguistic understanding.
 
tundramom said:
Wait a minute. You are calling me a Liar? Please point out one single place where I have lied about your beliefs. Please.

in Christ
Steph
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No I’m sorry. I thought you were an exmormon who read the BOM.

I didn’t mean to call you a liar. Arent you an ex mormon?
 
MelanieAnne said:
I have close personal friends who are Mormons. I know plenty of Mormons. I’ve been steeped in Mormonism since I was a child. Don’t tell me that I don’t know anything about Mormonism. I probably know more than you’re comfortable with, that’s all. Want me to start describing temple ordinances? I can. Want me to talk about the secret handshakes? I can.

Say what you will, you DO NOT pray TO Jesus. And that was my point, one you did not address. You may pray in His name, you DO NOT pray TO Him. You pray to “Heavenly Father”. In the Mormon pantheon Jesus comes across as a subordinate of “Heavenly Father”.

It’s nice that you have changed your life for the better. That doesn’t make Mormonism true. Father Corapi had a similar experience to one you have described earlier in his life. He’s a Catholic priest. I’m glad you got well. I’m sorry that you fell for the heresy of Mormonism.

I don’t lie and I do not appreciate the name calling you are dishing out. I am not a liar and I submit that calling me one is, at the very least, against forum rules. How very uncharitable of you to indulge in the sort of name-calling you have heaped on me.

Mormonism is not Christian by any traditional understanding of the word. You may reference Jesus, but He is a different Jesus than the rest of us worship (and we actually do worship Him.) You may include the Holy Spirit in your Godhead, but it is clearly a different Holy Spirit, since the one that interacts with you has an entirely different message ~ yet there can be only ONE REAL Holy Spirit. You may worship God, or as Mormons seem to prefer to call Him ~ Heavenly Father ~ but it is a different God than the one we worship. Ours does not have a body of “flesh and bone”.

Clearly, although Mormonism may have co-opted the terminology, Mormonism is not Christian in the sense of the rest of Christianity. It is deceptive for missionaries to continue to go about the world preaching their message without making the distinctions. Yet they rely on this sort of deception, without which they would certainly fail in their attempts to convert.

I’m happy to be able to say I belong to a church that has no need to hide their theology.
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You are wrong.
We pray as Jesus himself taught us. “Our father who art in heaven”…
Jesus is not a subordinate of heavenly father. He is his son. The bible says that "in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word WAS GOD. " Did you know that we believe the bible? Jesus was YAWEH of the OT and is the creator of the universe. Hard to do that if you are not God!

You are right that Mormonism differs from the rest of Christianity which is apostate. We believe we are the “truest” of Christians so we find it ironic that you all have co-opted our word. But so be it.

You don’t appear to know much about Mormonism despite your protestations. Show me quotes that show that Jesus is “subordinate” to the Father.

I cannot stop you from saying anything you want to, but I will correct your errors.
 
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