Is Mormonism Christian ?

[jim1130]

From the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

It is easier if you visit the Website for information. Some things to consider:

Chapter 1 – Our Father in Heaven

Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.

All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him–a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Chapter 2 – Our Heavenly Family

God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.

Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left them for a time. They wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that they have. To do this, we needed to leave our celestial home to be tested and to gain experience. We needed to choose good over evil. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies. We would need to leave our physical bodies at death and reunite with them in the Resurrection. Then we would receive immortal bodies like those of our heavenly parents. If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received. (See D&C 93:30-34.)

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present his plan for our progression (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365). We learned that if we followed his plan, we would become like him. We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19-20).

Chapter 3 – Jesus Christ, Our Chosen Leader and Savior

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).

Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers.

In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. One-third of the spirits in heaven were punished for following Satan: they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies.

Chapter 6 – The Fall of Adam and Eve

In the spirit world Adam was called Michael the Archangel (see D&C 27:11; Jude 1:9).

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[jim1130]

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Chapter 7 – The Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.

The Holy Ghost will witness to us that Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer (see 3 Nephi 28:11; D&C 20:27; Hebrews 10:15). He will reveal to us that our Heavenly Father is the Father of our spirits. He will help us understand that we can become exalted like our Heavenly Father. (See Romans 8:16-17.)

Chapter 10 – Scriptures

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture.

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon into English through the gift and power of God. He said that it is “the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (History of the Church, 4:461).

Chapter 11 – The Life of Christ

Some friends took the Savior’s body to a tomb, where it lay for three days. During this time his spirit went and organized the missionary work to other spirits who needed to receive his gospel (see 1 Peter 3:18-20; D&C 138). On the third day, a Sunday, he returned to his body and took it up again. He was the first to overcome death. The prophecy had been fulfilled “that he must rise again from the dead” (John 20:9).

Shortly after his resurrection, the Savior appeared to the Nephites and established his Church in the Americas. He taught the people and blessed them. This moving account is found in 3 Nephi 11 through 28.

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[jim1130]

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Chapter 16 - The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times

Jesus established his Church when he was on the earth. It was called the Church of Jesus Christ (see 3 Nephi 27:8), and the members were called Saints. Through the persecution and martyrdom of Church leaders and the general wickedness of the people, the Church of Jesus Christ was taken from the earth.

Today the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored and is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All of the offices and functions of the Church in the days of Jesus are present in the Church today.

After Jesus was resurrected, he visited the people in America and organized his Church among them (see 3 Nephi 11-28). Then he left them and ascended into heaven. For over two hundred years they lived righteously and were among the happiest people whom God had created (see 4 Nephi 1:16).

Throughout history, evil people have tried to destroy the work of God. This happened while the Apostles were still alive and supervising the young, growing Church. Some members taught ideas from their old pagan or Jewish beliefs instead of the simple truths taught by Jesus. In addition, there was persecution from outside the Church. Church members were tortured and killed for their beliefs. One by one, the Apostles were killed. Because of the persecution, surviving Apostles could not meet to choose and ordain men to replace those who were dead. Eventually, local priesthood leaders were the only ones who had authority to direct the scattered branches of the Church. The perfect organization of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy.

Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. Members of this church believed that God was a being without form or substance.

These people lost the understanding of God’s love for us. They did not know that we are his children. They did not understand the purpose of life. Many of the ordinances were changed because the priesthood and revelation were no longer on the earth.

The emperor chose his own leaders and called them by the same titles used by priesthood leaders in the true Church of Christ. Church officers were given honor and wealth. Bishops and archbishops fought among themselves to gain more power. There were no Apostles or other priesthood leaders with power from God, and there were no spiritual gifts. The prophet Isaiah had foreseen this condition, prophesying, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant” (Isaiah 24:5). It was the Church of Jesus Christ no longer; it was a church of men. Even the name had been changed. In the Americas, apostasy also occurred (see 4 Nephi).

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[jim1130]

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Chapter 16 - The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times

Jesus established his Church when he was on the earth. It was called the Church of Jesus Christ (see 3 Nephi 27:8), and the members were called Saints. Through the persecution and martyrdom of Church leaders and the general wickedness of the people, the Church of Jesus Christ was taken from the earth.

Today the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored and is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All of the offices and functions of the Church in the days of Jesus are present in the Church today.

After Jesus was resurrected, he visited the people in America and organized his Church among them (see 3 Nephi 11-28). Then he left them and ascended into heaven. For over two hundred years they lived righteously and were among the happiest people whom God had created (see 4 Nephi 1:16).

Throughout history, evil people have tried to destroy the work of God. This happened while the Apostles were still alive and supervising the young, growing Church. Some members taught ideas from their old pagan or Jewish beliefs instead of the simple truths taught by Jesus. In addition, there was persecution from outside the Church. Church members were tortured and killed for their beliefs. One by one, the Apostles were killed. Because of the persecution, surviving Apostles could not meet to choose and ordain men to replace those who were dead. Eventually, local priesthood leaders were the only ones who had authority to direct the scattered branches of the Church. The perfect organization of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy.

Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. Members of this church believed that God was a being without form or substance.

These people lost the understanding of God’s love for us. They did not know that we are his children. They did not understand the purpose of life. Many of the ordinances were changed because the priesthood and revelation were no longer on the earth.

The emperor chose his own leaders and called them by the same titles used by priesthood leaders in the true Church of Christ. Church officers were given honor and wealth. Bishops and archbishops fought among themselves to gain more power. There were no Apostles or other priesthood leaders with power from God, and there were no spiritual gifts. The prophet Isaiah had foreseen this condition, prophesying, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant” (Isaiah 24:5). It was the Church of Jesus Christ no longer; it was a church of men. Even the name had been changed. In the Americas, apostasy also occurred (see 4 Nephi).

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[Bill_Pick]

You are begging the question. You defined your terms so that the conclusion follows.

So what was he doing “before” he created time?

Try and answer that one.

mfbukowski, after seeing you post about the church that Our lord started i see you know nothing about His church,Those who are outside of Christ’s Church do not have the systematic and consistent theology which would place them in the class of the “unlearned”. They do not have Christ in the Blessed Sacrament of which Christ said - “If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever”.
Without it one would most certainly be in the category of the “unstable”.

 

[jim1130]

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Chapter 17 – The Church of Jesus Christ Today

After the Savior ascended into heaven, men changed the ordinances and doctrines that he and his Apostles had established. Because of apostasy, there was no direct revelation from God. The true Church was no longer on the earth. Men organized different churches that claimed to be true but taught conflicting doctrines. There was much confusion and contention over religion. The Lord had foreseen these conditions, saying there would be “a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. . . . They shall . . . seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it” (Amos 8:11-12).

For many years people lived in spiritual darkness. About 1700 years after Christ, people were becoming more and more interested in knowing the truth about God and religion. Some of them could see that the gospel Jesus taught was no longer on the earth. Some recognized that there was no revelation and no true authority and that the church that Christ organized did not exist on the earth. The time had arrived for the Church of Jesus Christ to be restored to the earth.

In the spring of 1820, one of the most important events in the history of the world occurred. The time had come for the marvelous work and wonder of which the Lord had spoken. As a young boy, Joseph Smith wanted to know which of all the churches was the true Church of Christ. He went into the woods near his home and prayed humbly and intently to his Heavenly Father, asking which church he should join. On that morning a miraculous thing happened. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told him not to join any church because the true Church was not on the earth. He also said that the teachings of present churches were “an abomination in his sight” (Joseph Smith–History 1:19; see also 1:7-20). Beginning with this event, there was again direct revelation from the heavens. The Lord had chosen a new prophet. Since that time the heavens have not been closed. Revelation continues to this day through each of his chosen prophets. Joseph was to be the one to help restore the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
John the Baptist came in 1829 to ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood (see D&C 13; 27:8).

Then Peter, James, and John, the presidency of the Church in ancient times, came and gave Joseph and Oliver the Melchizedek Priesthood and the keys of the kingdom of God (see D&C 27:12-13). Later, additional keys of the priesthood were restored by heavenly messengers such as Moses, Elias, and Elijah (see D&C 110:11-16). Through the Restoration the priesthood was returned to the earth. Those who hold this priesthood today have the authority to perform ordinances such as baptism. They also have the authority to direct the Lord’s kingdom on earth.

On 6 April 1830, the Savior again directed the organization of his Church on the earth (see D&C 20:1). His Church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see D&C 115:4). Christ is the head of his Church today, just as he was in ancient times. The Lord has said that it is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased” (D&C 1:30).

Joseph Smith was sustained as prophet and “first elder” of the Church (see D&C 20:2-4). Later the First Presidency was organized, and he was sustained as President. When the Church was first organized, only the framework was set up. The organization was completed during the next several years.

The Church was organized with the same offices as were in the ancient Church. That organization included Apostles, prophets, seventies, evangelists (patriarchs), pastors (presiding officers), high priests, elders, bishops, priests, teachers, and deacons. These same offices are in his Church today (see Articles of Faith 1:6).

Again, you should visit the Web site for yourselves to help understand the LDS doctrines.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

 

[look3467]

You know I really thought you were interested in dialogue, but you came back with some zingers, so I gave up.

My injections are meant to bring a commonality to all sides.

That commonality is love amongst ourselves distinct from our beliefs.

If that can not be achieved despite our differences, than non of our beliefs matter.

The practice of respect for one another’s beliefs in love is what can unite rather than to discriminate between what we believe and what the other believes.

For it can become a practice in futility and nothing can be accomplished.

What God does in our lives, such as healing of the body, mind and soul, the peace that He gives when we abide in Him, the comfort that He gives when we are troubled and suffering, the work He does in our lives that astound the unbeliever.

These are the things that we should dwell in, for there in is the truth revealed to the world, That we love one another.

I don’t follow all the arguments because it takes up to much time, for it is just an attempt to prove one right over the other.

Granted, some post readers may get something out of all of it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[zaffiroborant]

“organized and sanctioned?”

No, the Catholic church knows better. They need our money and our good will too much.

But individual Catholics? Oh, yeah.

.

The CHURCH does not. Mormons individually? Sometimes do.

Striking difference in tone between these two similar statements.

 

[1holycatholic]

Didn’t like that? Because it does not fit your theology?

Peace>>>AJ

“I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.”
The Ten Commandments don’t apply to you?

 

[mfbukowski]

Sure, but He doesn’t violate our uniqueness and our difference by absorbing us. When a father welcomes his children into their inheritance, do they not have access to all that he has, and enjoy all its fruits? Do they then have all the same powers and authorities of the living father, or do they still honor his position as their father?

Of course they honor his position. And yes, as his children, they have access to all he has and enjoy ALL its fruits

John 17. Read it. We sit with him in his throne and become one with Him as He is one with Christ.

How much moreso with a King sharing his kingdom with his faithful subjects?

No, a king with his children who are princes, not subjects.

A king who will share with his princes and princesses all that he has. Including his throne, per John 17.

 

[mfbukowski]

You didn’t ask that question to me. Now that you have, I will answer.

I have heard many different explanations and disagreements among Mormons. None have had a clear teaching to appeal to, like the Catholic Church provides.

Some have gone in for the full multiplicity, others have rejected the possibility of other gods.

What Smith seems to have been doing and what most Mormons seem to say is that God the Father is the only God we’re supposed to care about here, so the other gods are irrelevant to us at this time in our existence. But there are other gods.

This admits more than one, and further, Smith garbles the situation by talking about other gods having a part in creation and in our world in a way that would make them much more relevant and less open to simple dismissal.

Now, get over yourself and realize that your quote works in reverse:
“Are Catholics just plain stupid to not see these conflicts, or is there another explanation? What do you honestly think? Do you think that I was not aware of those quotes, or that I was lying? Or just stupid? Which is it? And all those theologians are intentionally misleading people, or do you think there is something here you are not understanding?”

Clearly you are right. I do not understand how three persons can have one “being”. I am not smart enough to understand that one. But I don’t feel too bad because no one else is either. It is all a great “mystery” after all. Most of Catholicsm is a “mystery”.

Like for example the Eucharist. Or what happens really to unbaptized babies.

No one seems to be able to figure any of those out. So are your theologians intentionally misleading people or not? Are they lying of just stupid?, to quote you.

 

[MelanieAnne]

So I guess you disagree with RebeccaJ that we are persecuting Catholics? It’s hard to be mainstream when you persecute the largest Christian denomination

Leave your traps for someone else mfb. I’m done. From what I can see there is no productive value to this interaction. CLICK!

 

[mfbukowski]

Some have gone in for the full multiplicity, others have rejected the possibility of other gods.

What Smith seems to have been doing and what most Mormons seem to say is that God the Father is the only God we’re supposed to care about here, so the other gods are irrelevant to us at this time in our existence. But there are other gods.

Explain to me the use of the word “eloheim” in Genesis 1. In what sense “are” there other Gods if we only know and worship one? Doesn’t this seem contradictory? What are they doing if we have nothing to do with them?

And you still havent answered what God was doing “before” he created time, if such a question even makes sense.

But he must have existed “before” he created it. But how can there be a “before” time?

Answer that one? How could God exist “before” time? The answers to all these are related.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Define “some Mormons,” please.

We still do. We are not Catholic. We are not Protestant. We are us…and we are Christian. .

The problem with that is…we need the quotes, Melanie. Quotes or stuff ‘that I remember from TV, etc.,’ tend to be misremembered or misinterpreted.

Two reactions to that occur to me:

The first is sarcastic: How DARE we reach out and attempt to work with people of other faiths and get to know our neighbors; how…presumptive of us.

The second is resignation. The larger Christian world has been putting us in a physical and metaphorical ghetto since 1830. But y’know what? We have reached a point where we simply aren’t going to fade away, or go away, or whatever it is y’all want us to do. We aren’t enemies, we aren’t out to get you…

Ok, strike that, we ARE out to get you, but only in terms of getting you to join us.

What we are NOT, is out to alienate you, or force you to admit that you are lesser, or ‘other,’ or different enough to justify contempt.

Would that I could say that of the larger Christian world in regard to any faith that isn’t specifically theirs.

I realize that because I’m LDS, and am personally familiar with how anti’s view LDS, it looks like I am being paranoid, drama queen, whatever. But it’s not about being LDS–it’s about fighting the techniques of the anti. Anti’s do not target Mormons exclusively; they target anybody who isn’t ‘them.’ Catholics are vilified equally–sometimes worse–than Mormons are. In fact, I don’t much see a religion that is NOT the target of some anti out there.

It’s a feud.

And these tactics do not work.

And I can’t help but wonder why, when people are the TARGETS of such stuff, that they turn around and dish it out to someone else. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

I see no productive value in this. I don’t pretend to know what your motives for entering into this sort of discussion but they do not appear to be to be of any productive value.

 

[Arandur]

Of course they honor his position. And yes, as his children, they have access to all he has and enjoy ALL its fruits

That’s what I said.

John 17. Read it. We sit with him in his throne and become one with Him as He is one with Christ.

As we see elsewhere, particularly in Revelation, we each have thrones but we do not share the same throne. The apostles have their own. Like dukes or advisors or ministers to a king, or even kings to an emperor. There is not absolute equality; they are still subjects.

“One” has many senses. Christ does not necessarily mean that in all senses. I don’t think the LDS do either, because you don’t believe that God and Christ are the same being, and that is one sense of being “One.”

No, a king with his children who are princes, not subjects.

A king who will share with his princes and princesses all that he has. Including his throne, per John 17.
A reigning king’s princes are still subjects to him who must obey him. But otherwise, yes, I accept your correction. It doesn’t change my view.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So I guess you disagree with RebeccaJ that we are persecuting Catholics? It’s hard to be mainstream when you persecute the largest Christian denomination

What’s the deal bukowski, always trying to play be against other Catholics. You are being, for lack of a better term, a butt head.

Let me give you the scoop:

a) Mormonism has the goal to replace truth with lies. Replace, entirely. If you could wipe all of Christianity off the planet and assimilate everyone into your lies, you’d be “goal achieved”.

b) In order to do his, you can’t look like a bunch of whack jobs. I mean really, what Christian is going to convert to the nonsense of Kolob, God has a God who has a God…to infinity, polygamy, magic rocks, Satan is Jesus brother,etc. The list goes on and on.

c) So, Mormons just keep asserting, we’re Christian. Because as you know, if you say something often enough, people just might believe it.

d) While all the while, complaining of persecution when anyone or any group dares to speak up and point out that the Emperor has no clothes.

You need to appear mainstream. As looking like the FLDS in TX makes you look, you know, off.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Of course they honor his position. And yes, as his children, they have access to all he has and enjoy ALL its fruits

John 17. Read it. We sit with him in his throne and become one with Him as He is one with Christ.

No, a king with his children who are princes, not subjects.

A king who will share with his princes and princesses all that he has. Including his throne, per John 17.

mfbukowski–

Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers.

Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans…” (D&C 130:22).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,” (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)
Jesus
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
“Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh …” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).
Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)
Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.)
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Salvation
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)
“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements – ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.’” (Articles of Faith p. 79).
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

 

[mfbukowski]

Thank you Rebecca. This is important, mski. Now I’m not saying here that truth is a democracy or properly determined by popularity, so don’t discount what I’m going to say here on that basis: Most Christians and even many Smithians (CoC, Remnant, Restorationists, etc.) look at Smiths works and see a very marked change and major development in what he was preaching. They see even the BoM contradicting a lot of his later teachings pretty directly.

Now, Mormons rationalize and justify and attempt to reconcile these. And there’s theoretically a possibility that you could be correct.

But if you are going to take that approach, you must be honest and realize that at best what you are doing is no better than what the Catholic Church has done. For you accuse the Catholic Church of inventing things or having teachings unreconcileable with earlier works. And yet that exists in a much, much more condensed time period in your own church, and among far fewer people (greater numbers meaning more viewpoints and ways of explaining things, which inherently explains some of the differences in explanation within the Catholic Church).

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, mski. Again the LDS can only justify their own teachings by similar methods by which they wish to condemn the Catholic Church.

You must not have understood my previous posts.

This is precisely what I meant in our revelation discussion when I said that there was no difference between papal infallibility and the magesterium and the prophets in an open canon.

That is why I got so upset about you saying there was an open canon. If there is an open canon there is no difference. Yes we agree on this. I thought that was clear a hundred posts ago.

When you made that post about catechism section 67 and how you believe that private revelation becomes public revelation through the magesterium – that clinched it.

Same thing. Remember that discussion?

That dang Rebecca gets it!

 

[Arandur]

Clearly you are right. I do not understand how three persons can have one “being”. I am not smart enough to understand that one. But I don’t feel too bad because no one else is either. It is all a great “mystery” after all. Most of Catholicsm is a “mystery”.

Since the Catholic Church has more material explaining and exploring each of its teachings than any other church in existence, your suggestion that it cannot explain itself or just says that “everything is a mystery” is really rather weak.

In my discussions with Mormons, including Mormon apologists, I have encountered the explanation, “It has not yet been revealed” in response to many, many questions and attempts to peg down defined teachings. So, if anything, your church is guilty of the same, and since you even lack a Catechism in the sense that we have one, and given the number of beliefs I’ve encountered this explanation for from learned LDS scholars and authors (Brant Gardner and some articles of FAIR come to mind), I’d say you have this problem to a much greater extent than we.

Further, what is really the problem with admitting that God is in a sense ultimately a mystery? Do you actually think you’ll ever come to know everything about Him, explore the full depths of His truth, come to comprehend Him in His infinite glory and power and reason? Even if you think that’s possible in the next life, do you think it is in this life? Has anyone ever achieved that? Then what’s wrong with admitting that God is a mystery? We can certainly learn a lot about a mystery without fully understanding or “solving” everything about it.

No one seems to be able to figure any of those out.

We know quite a bit about them, and have many other valid ideas that are not yet confirmed.

So are your theologians intentionally misleading people or not? Are they lying of just stupid?, to quote you.

Um, those were your words, originally. I was throwing them back at you. I’m not sure what you’re trying to do by this.

 

[look3467]

“I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.”
The Ten Commandments don’t apply to you?

The first 5 commandments pertain to the heavenly, God’s.
To love God is to love thy neighbor which you’ll find to be the next 5 commandments.

If we practice the second five as commanded, we shall fulfill the first five.

Now, strange gods are defined as, images, worldly lusts: greed, power, sensual desires, hate, love of money and to take what is not ours. (Stealing)

The first commandment is telling us not to make any of these those things mentioned above the god of our lives.

But, to exercise Godly brotherly love is not a god, but of God and not of our selves, for without God there can be no good work.

Peace>>>AJ