Is mormonism Christian?

[ThurifAcolyte]

wait, Mormons deny the bodily resurrection of Christ?

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

I keep coming back to this idea the more I think about this. There are plenty of fundamentalist anti-Catholics who also insist that Catholics are not really Christian, even though we say we are. When I run into people like that, I tend to run for the door because I know that nothing I say will make any difference to them. I pretty much tune them out. How could I blame a Mormon for tuning me out if I do the same to them?

YESSS:thumbsup:

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Again, we agree that Mormons are heretics, and that they are not Christian in the full and proper sense.

Is that like being a little bit pregnant?

I prefer cut and dried; black or white; full truth.
Milquetoasted acceptance repels me.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

There are plenty of other people who think Mormons are Christians. This atheist, for instance.

And early on, many thought the world to be flat.

…and so it goes - even as related to the most important topic of all - the religion that Jesus founded.

 

[Contarini]

Is that like being a little bit pregnant?

No.

I prefer cut and dried; black or white;

That is your misfortune. Reality is against you. Catholic teaching is against you (Lumen Gentium makes it clear that there are degrees of participation in the Catholic Church and that not all non-Catholics or non-Christians can be put in the same category).

full truth.

Of course “full truth” is what we all prefer. But that does not justify us in denying the existence of partial truth. To claim that partial truth is no truth at all is to embrace a lie. If you really love truth, you must recognize it wherever it is found, even in fragmented and distorted forms.

Your preferences frankly don’t matter. Truth is what matters.

Edwin

 

[gearhead]

…and so it goes - even as related to the most important topic of all - the religion that Jesus founded.

They follow the teachings of Christ as they understand them. Exactly what other test is there of whether someone is Christian?

Note that I’m not saying that their beliefs are correct - if you want to believe they’re heretical Christians, you’re free to do so. The point remains, though, that they follow Christ. They even affirm the divinity of Christ. What meaningful definition of “Christian” can you offer that doesn’t apply?

 

[Bluegoat]

I keep coming back to this idea the more I think about this. There are plenty of fundamentalist anti-Catholics who also insist that Catholics are not really Christian, even though we say we are. When I run into people like that, I tend to run for the door because I know that nothing I say will make any difference to them. I pretty much tune them out. How could I blame a Mormon for tuning me out if I do the same to them?

I pretty much think this is right on.

Mormons think it is important to follow Christ. They have some odd ideas about what that means, but the fact they have got to that point is important. What’s left is to have them figure out what that might really mean. It seems to me often that those who insist they aren’t Christians are actually trying to get them to deny Christ altogether, to prove they aren’t really Christians. I think that would be very wrong.

That being said, compared to “regular” Christianity, I think Mormonism is actually more different than Judaism is from Christianity. It seems to me that is essentially materialist, so it is actually quite different from even Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Platonism… almost pre-Socratic in a way.

 

[ParkerD]

I agree with your definition, and I can say that Mormons, individuals, are Christians, in the sense that they believe in and worship Jesus Christ, or at least their understanding of Him (since we do differ on various issues related to Christ).

However, I believe the Catholic Church sees as “Christian” those that confess the traditional Trinity, hence why LDS baptisms are not accepted. Also, if you take a look at the Athanasian Creed, the “catholic faith” is defined as one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, and of course goes on to define the traditional Trinity. This can be seen as related to the Catholic stance on accepting baptisms (I am not saying it originated in this Creed, however it certainly is related to it).

ThurferAcolyte,
So is this statement here backpedaling on what you wrote on the other thread? If not, how is it not?

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

ThurferAcolyte,
So is this statement here backpedaling on what you wrote on the other thread? If not, how is it not?

can you clarify?

 

[Murdock]

Are Mormons “Christians”? I assume that there have been many threads here at CAF which address this question. There certainly have been threads with many posts which address this question.

“Christian” is a word. Like other words, it is assumed by many to have “a”, as in a single, meaning. However, is that a useful assumption?

In addition to being a Mormon, I am also a lawyer. I specialize in litigation of business and property disputes. As a result, for nearly 30 years, much of my professional life has involved disputes over the meaning of a few words, or even a single word, in one context or another. Words in contracts. Words in statutes. Words in wills. Words in constitutions. Words in conversations. Words in other contexts too. There are legal theories, indeed whole bodies of law, developed by judges, lawyers and legal scholars over centuries, to try to determine the meaning of words in each of these widely-differing contexts. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell, Jr. wrote: “A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanging, it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in colour and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used.”

Put another, more prosaic, way, it is matter of definition. For example, Catholics might define “Christian” so as to exclude Protestants (I believe that is historically true but currently not true), some Protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists or whatever. Anyone might draw a perimeter around the word “Christian”, a perimeter larger or smaller, perfectly circular or grossly irregular, to include or exclude any particular denomination.

The original post sets out five criteria (three numbered) for drawing the perimeter around the word “Christian” so as to exclude Mormons. However, as far as I can tell from the original post, these five criteria are mixed bag as to drawing the perimeter so as to exclude Mormons. Let’s look at them:

1. “Mormons deny the deity of Christ.” Incorrect.
2. “Mormons deny salvation by grace.” Mormons do not deny the necessity of grace for salvation. We do believe that obedience to God’s commandments is also necessary.
3. “Mormons deny the bodily resurrection of Christ.” Incorrect.
4. “Mormon teaching contradicts Christian teaching of monotheism.” Maybe. Depends upon what you understand about “monotheism” and “Christian teaching.”

(A) As is well known, Mormons do not accept the mystery of the Trinity and, instead, believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages, united in purpose, as a Godhead, but not the same in substance.

(i) Of course, until the First Council of Nicaea, which was not until 325 A.D., the doctrine of the Trinity (same in substance) did not exist. So, were all of the “Christians” before 325 A.D. not really Christian because they never even heard of the Trinity? I know that someone will post that the First Council of Nicaea simply “recognized” what had “always” been the “truth”. However, my question is whether “Christians” who had never even heard of, much less believed in, the Trinity for more than three centuries were not really Christians.

(ii) Joseph recorded (if you want to say “fabricated”, because you believe Joseph was a fraud, go right ahead), that the Lord told him that, as to all of the Churches of his day, “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight.” Why was that? There were no prophets, and no revelations, at Nicaea or any of the other many early church councils, and the recorders of those councils never claimed that there were. The doctrine of the Trinity was established (I will not say “fabricated”) based upon argument, majority vote and, crucially, pressure from the Roman emperor to dispose of a politically dangerous controversy (the Arians versus the Alexandrians), which the emperor believed trivially abstract, in order to increase the stability of the Roman Empire. As Mormons say, those who subscribe to the Nicene Creed put their faith in the words of men rather than the Word of God. Wikipedia has a fairly good article about the First Council of Nicaea. For a really rigorous scholarly, but readable, account of how Nicaea and the other early church councils really worked (including politics, self-interest, violence, etc.) read Yale Professor Ramsay MacMullen’s book “Voting About God: In the Early Church Councils” (Yale U. Press. 2006).

(iii) So, if you want to define me as not a Christian because I do not believe in the mystery of the Trinity, go right ahead. Of course, the Roman emperor who actually convened the First Council of Niceae, and insisted upon some resolution or the other of the Arian v. Alexandrian dispute, thus bringing about the Trinity and the Nicence Creed, would say “who cares?”.

(B) Mormons accept that there are other gods in the universe but, crucially, recognize that God is the only god with whom we humans have anything to do. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Ex. 20:3. The Book of Mormon says the same thing. Mosiah 12:35. Mormons do not put any other gods before God. I know that Jews and Christians have spent millennia changing “other gods” into “nonexistent gods” (I am translating “false gods” as “nonexistent gods” because that is what I believe is meant) so that it is considered blasphemous to believe that other gods exist even if one reserves his worship for God alone, but I am not convinced. The Bible does NOT say that there are no other gods–it says that the other gods must not be put before God.

1. “Mormons undermine the authority and reliability of the Bible.” Obviously, the “reliability” of the Bible is a fact which Mormons cannot undermine or otherwise change. As to the authority of the Bible, I cannot see how Mormons “undermine” it in any way. Indeed, Joseph said that we [Mormons] believe in the Bible MORE than others. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon was brought forth for the very purpose of convincing all to believe the Bible.

Your Mormon and Christian friend

Murdock

 

[why_me]

But as you said, that doesn’t mean that I see it in the same category as Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodists, etc, for obvious reasons.

Yes, for obvious reasons. But then again, why would mormons wish to be in the same category as the above or in the same category as catholics? Mormons belong to a restorationist church. For mormons, the true church of Jesus Christ was restored through Joseph Smith. Now the bigger question: did the church of jesus need to be restored?

Now of course mormons are christians. However the above sects along with the catholic church may claim that they are not christian. But this is only a power play against the mormons. Nothing more. Mormons live by and large good christian lives and their good, respectable lives are a reflection of their christian lifestyle.

 

[why_me]

There are plenty of other people who think Mormons are Christians. This atheist, for instance.

And the mormons would thank you for your kindness. Strange, but you are more christian than many so called christians who post on the mormon threads. Some of the so called christians are judgemental, mocking, gnashing their teeth, and chauvinist toward the mormons. Certainly not christian behavior. But you the humanist, show understanding, toleration and good will toward the mormons.

 

[why_me]

Not true. Mormons are Christians…just not “orthodox” as defined by Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists and Rome.

You are right. Quakers are good, christian people too. We need more quakers and less judgemental so called christians who seem not to understand the teachings of christ.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Not true. Mormons are Christians…just not “orthodox” as defined by Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists and Rome.

Sorry, but that’s entirely incorrect.

Please read and do your research. There are a vast amount of sites that will show you why mormons are not “Christians”. Here is one, for example.

Or…HERE (as quoted from below)

**"Richard John Neuhaus, a leading Roman Catholic theologian, helpfully reminds us that “Christian” is a word that “is not honorific but descriptive.” Christians do respect the Mormon affirmation of the family and the zeal of Mormon youth in their own missionary work. Christians must affirm religious liberty and the right of Mormons to practice and share their faith.

Nevertheless, Mormonism is not Christianity by definition or description".**

 

[StLawrenceFan]

You are right. Quakers are good, christian people too. We need more quakers and less judgemental so called christians who seem not to understand the teachings of christ.

LOL.

…in other words…veil the truth.

Got it.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Yes, for obvious reasons. But then again, why would mormons wish to be in the same category as the above or in the same category as catholics? Mormons belong to a restorationist church. For mormons, the true church of Jesus Christ was restored through Joseph Smith. Now the bigger question: did the church of jesus need to be restored?

Now of course mormons are christians. However the above sects along with the catholic church may claim that they are not christian. But this is only a power play against the mormons. Nothing more. Mormons live by and large good christian lives and their good, respectable lives are a reflection of their christian lifestyle.

Who said that Mormons would want to be in the same category? I’m talking about from a Catholic perspective clearly.

And yes, Mormons are in the Restorationism category, along with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh Day Adventists (who are Trinitarian), Iglesia ni Christo, Churches of Christ, etc.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

They follow the teachings of Christ as they understand them. Exactly what other test is there of whether someone is Christian?

Note that I’m not saying that their beliefs are correct - if you want to believe they’re heretical Christians, you’re free to do so. The point remains, though, that they follow Christ. They even affirm the divinity of Christ. What meaningful definition of “Christian” can you offer that doesn’t apply?

–The follow a false prophet’s vision of “Christ”. They are not Christian because of that fact.
They are in a very controlled cult, is all.

They do not follow Christian Doctrine.

Please re-read this thread and the many links I’ve provided.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

And the mormons would thank you for your kindness. Strange, but you are more christian than many so called christians who post on the mormon threads. Some of the so called christians are judgemental, mocking, gnashing their teeth, and chauvinist toward the mormons. Certainly not christian behavior. But you the humanist, show understanding, toleration and good will toward the mormons.

Gnashing their teeth…

An atheist is “more Christian” than “so called Christians” …clearly there are at least 3-4 definitions of “Christian” in this thread, ranging from belief in the Trinity, belief in and worship of Jesus Christ, and being a good person (why me’s definition).

 

[thecourt]

Of course it is.

All of you bigoted people who have a problem with my church for whatever reason – and yet you will say Catholics and Protestants are Christian.

You base your conclusion that we “are not Christian” on the same recycled false garbage that continues to get spread about.

Yes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is. Why not ask me or someone you know who is a member instead of buying into the recycled false garbage.

 

[Bluegoat]

If Christian comes down the road, and meets Seeker who is sitting in the ditch. He says he is following Christ, who is a great fellow who is the key to everything, and goes on to say all kinds of bizarre things about him.

“Oh, no! That’s not Christ at all.” says Christian, “I know him. You have been following someone else all this time.”

“Oh thanks” says Seeker, and heads off down the other road.