Is Mormonism Condemned?

[heathernoel]

Anyway, my point being is I wonder if we should be worried about this religion and if it’s heading away from Christ or not.

While they can quote scripture that says they are with Christ, they aren’t Christ based. They can’t get further from Christ the Son because they aren’t with him. Again, not because they don’t want to be…but because they are misguided.

Peace Be With You,
Heather

 

[MrZetterlund]

While they can quote scripture that says they are with Christ, they aren’t Christ based. They can’t get further from Christ the Son because they aren’t with him. Again, not because they don’t want to be…but because they are misguided.

Peace Be With You,
Heather

But don’t they accept that Christ died for their sins? Then what’s the problem?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But don’t they accept that Christ died for their sins? Then what’s the problem?

Becuase they deny who Christ is.

Their belief of the Trinity, three gods with one purpose, is defective and totally different than the Christian belief of the Trinity, three persons/One God.

Also, they do not necessarily believe that God the Father is the only God as they believe that he is an exalted man who became a god, like Jesus and the rest of us can do. So there can be a multitude of gods.

 

[heathernoel]

I think that’s what is dangerous is that they DON’T know Him. Byz said it better…

 

[dianaiad]

Well I used the word “condemn” because the Book of Mormon is called another testamony of Jesus Christ. And Galatians 1:8 specifically says,
“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”
Of course, I don’t know if that includes the followers.

Hmmn. Now my meter is going off…not the shenanigan one. The OTHER one.

 

[dianaiad]

I would say that J.S. himself might have been condemned if he didn’t repent of his great sin of creating a document that would mislead millions of people.

Brainwashing is a powerful tool…I’m thinking of a particular Mormon who really can’t see the absurdities in her beliefs (while she slipped away for a year, she freely admitted how ridiculous some of the things were she went through, and the extent to which she felt violated). Her husband was busted having an affair, and to hold her to him, he threatened to take the kids away through the church, and she went back to the church. Yes, she had a choice, but I’m not sure how much free will she really had as someone who was abused. I’d hate to think that she’d be condemned, kwim?

But as I said, I think He’s merciful…so maybe even ole’ JS is in heaven (maybe that’d be his purgatory…surrounded by all his wives who know now better!).

Peace Be With You!

Heather

Heather, you are telling an untruth. I don’t know if it’s your untruth or a lie told to you, but it IS an untruth. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, that will get a man excommunicated faster than having an affair. You can’t get high enough up the hierarchy to get immune from that, and there is no way on this good green earth that the church would allow the adulterer to pressure, blackmail or coerce the innocent spouse into staying around, nor could the adulterer threaten to use the church to 'take the kids away through the church." For one thing, that’s not legally possible.

In fact, what happens when a man commits adultery is this: he is very swiftly excommunicated. The church will not be on his side in any divorce proceeding or custody issue. The church will support the innocent spouse in all things. If the adulterer (or adultress) is repentant, and the spouse is forgiving, the family MIGHT remain intact, but the choice is that of the innocent spouse. The adulterous one? Has a LOT of work, and groveling, to do. There is no power there. Period.

If this woman’s husband was threatening this, it was a very hollow threat…and she should have known better.

There is a great deal more to this story than you have mentioned.

 

[heathernoel]

No, there isn’t. But I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

She was being verbally abused, and when threatened that he’d take the children away with the support of the church, she returned. She left a great job here, and moved back to SLC, a place she hated, because he was going to move there.

It is what it is.

I’m sorry if it’s ugly, but it is what it is. She was petrified, and returned. Her mother died three weeks ago, and she is planning on doing her temple work. So she has her recommends.

I wish I was wrong or lying. That would mean that this sweetheart wasn’t in the position she was in. But she is in it.

I know he’s not a typical Mormon, or a human, for that matter. But that is an example of brainwashing.

 

[dianaiad]

No, there isn’t. But I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

She was being verbally abused, and when threatened that he’d take the children away with the support of the church, she returned. She left a great job here, and moved back to SLC, a place she hated, because he was going to move there.

It is what it is.

I’m sorry if it’s ugly, but it is what it is. She was petrified, and returned. Her mother died three weeks ago, and she is planning on doing her temple work. So she has her recommends.

I wish I was wrong or lying. That would mean that this sweetheart wasn’t in the position she was in. But she is in it.

I know he’s not a typical Mormon, or a human, for that matter. But that is an example of brainwashing.

If it is, it’s not brainwashing by the CHURCH. Abusive husbands come in all religious flavors. The thing is, I don’t care if he was a Bishop or a Stake President, or a member of the Seventies…having an affair is going to get you toasted by the church. There is NO way that this man could have used the church to blackmail her.

Not in any way whatsoever.

All your friend had to do is tell his superior in the church, and that would have been enough. I’m telling you that there is more to the story than you are telling me.

…and you cannot blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Hmmn. Now my meter is going off…not the shenanigan one. The OTHER one.

wHaT?!?!?

If it is, it’s not brainwashing by the CHURCH. Abusive husbands come in all religious flavors. The thing is, I don’t care if he was a Bishop or a Stake President, or a member of the Seventies…having an affair is going to get you toasted by the church. There is NO way that this man could have used the church to blackmail her.

Not in any way whatsoever.

All your friend had to do is tell his superior in the church, and that would have been enough. I’m telling you that there is more to the story than you are telling me.

…and you cannot blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules.

dianaiad, Why do you respond to this but ignore the fundamental points made? Why do I always heve to pull teeth with Mormons? Have you ever heard of JonesTown? That guy used his brainwashing madness to take advantage of people. And yes, I mean sexually.
I’m sure Joseph Smith wasn’t like this, but I’m tired of pulling teeth!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
This is where I believe Bendict continues to be out of line with the Magisterium. There is a reason why the Catholic Catechism and the Magisterium considers Protestants to be separated brethrens. How can anyone honestly compare historic confessional Protestantism with Mormonism? I personally find it extremely offensive. We share many of the same historic creeds as Catholics and Protestants. In addition, there has been work done by Catholics and Protestants alike in ecumenicism like ECT 1, and ECT II.

Protestants and Catholic share many of the historic creeds:

reformed.org/documents/index.html

I know many people tend to throw any denomination that isn’t Catholic into the Protestant pile and that includes Mormonism.

But you are very right 2ndAdam. Mormons aren’t Protestants either, and they would be the first to admit that.

They are a denomination unto themselves.
With their belief in the Great Apostasy they see themselves as the RESTORED church, not a REFORMED church.

It’s why they reject ALL baptisms that are not their own.

Thank you very much sister! We share the truth in love with our Mormon friends and neighbors because we love them, and rejoice in any suffering that comes with that action.

 

[crazzeto]

Wait, so are you saying Baptists now accept Mormonism as Christianity?

Some do individually, my fiance is very big on this actually. I think because in her Church Catholics were also rejected as actually being Christian. So I think from her perspective it sort of normalizes, both faiths accept christ and the Baptist generally reject both as non-christian.

From my perspective as a Catholic, I have a different view point. Our faith tradition, as you know, isn’t really big on declaring this faith truely Christian, that faith isn’t. We Catholics are pretty open and accepting regarding, we of course just veiew the other faiths as being in Schism and having varying amounts of knowlege to draw upon for their faith tradition.

In order for us to say another faith group which in some way accepts Christ, isn’t actually Christian you have to get pretty exterem. I think that LDS is exterem enough. They reject the basic tennants of faith down to there is only one God. Not “one God from our perspective here on earth”, there is only one God, anywhere in the Universe. They even, apparently, reject that Jesus is Our God, apparently they think Jesus is the God of a different world all together.

 

[dianaiad]

wHaT?!?!?

dianaiad, Why do you respond to this but ignore the fundamental points made? Why do I always heve to pull teeth with Mormons? Have you ever heard of JonesTown? That guy used his brainwashing madness to take advantage of people. And yes, I mean sexually.
I’m sure Joseph Smith wasn’t like this, but I’m tired of pulling teeth!

It is my choice as to which posts to respond and which to pass up, Mr.Z. I responded to this story because, if it is accurate in every detail (and doesn’t leave out anything) then it is the story of an abusive MAN who broke all the rules of the church he claims to believe in order to control his wife…and Heather is using it as an example of how awful the CHURCH is.

In reality, had this man’s church leaders been aware of his infidelity, he would have been subject to church discipline…and if he had cheated on his wife, and it was a Temple marriage, he would have been excommunicated. There are no ifs, ands or buts about that one. As well, there is NO way that he could have used the church to take the children away from his wife. That’s not legally possible, for one thing, and it’s against all the rules, for another.

However, I suspect that there is a lot more to Heather’s friend’s story than she is telling us: either because she is leaving out some stuff, or because her friend left some stuff out.

 

[dianaiad]

Some do individually, my fiance is very big on this actually. I think because in her Church Catholics were also rejected as actually being Christian. So I think from her perspective it sort of normalizes, both faiths accept christ and the Baptist generally reject both as non-christian.

From my perspective as a Catholic, I have a different view point. Our faith tradition, as you know, isn’t really big on declaring this faith truely Christian, that faith isn’t. We Catholics are pretty open and accepting regarding, we of course just veiew the other faiths as being in Schism and having varying amounts of knowlege to draw upon for their faith tradition.

In order for us to say another faith group which in some way accepts Christ, isn’t actually Christian you have to get pretty exterem. I think that LDS is exterem enough. They reject the basic tennants of faith down to there is only one God. Not “one God from our perspective here on earth”, there is only one God, anywhere in the Universe. They even, apparently, reject that Jesus is Our God, apparently they think Jesus is the God of a different world all together.

Uh…huh?

The LDS view of the Trinity is this: We believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghosts are the three members of the Godhead; they are one in unity and in thought…and in that quality that makes all of them God. We believe that they are equal in all things, that God the Father created ALL things (universe…) through His Son Jesus the Christ. We pray to God the Father THROUGH Jesus the Christ.

We believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, lived for 33 years (the last three spent teaching His gospel through the area where He lived) was killed (the Atonement) and thus paid the price for our sins. We believe that He was resurrected on the third day with a physical, perfect, body (that he allowed His desciples to touch). He is our Savior, our Redeemer, the Messiah.

I’m not at all certain what you mean by Him being a God of another world, though. Hence the 'uh, huh?" response.

 

[crazzeto]

Uh…huh?

The LDS view of the Trinity is this: We believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghosts are the three members of the Godhead; they are one in unity and in thought…and in that quality that makes all of them God. We believe that they are equal in all things, that God the Father created ALL things (universe…) through His Son Jesus the Christ. We pray to God the Father THROUGH Jesus the Christ.

We believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, lived for 33 years (the last three spent teaching His gospel through the area where He lived) was killed (the Atonement) and thus paid the price for our sins. We believe that He was resurrected on the third day with a physical, perfect, body (that he allowed His desciples to touch). He is our Savior, our Redeemer, the Messiah.

I’m not at all certain what you mean by Him being a God of another world, though. Hence the 'uh, huh?" response.

But you don’t think they are truely one do you? They are each individually God, in their own right arent’ they? Or at the very least, every single ex-mormon discussing the faith regardless of where they’ve converted to stated exactly that. You don’t believe in a single universal God.

You try and say this is a matter of perspective, that we have one God, for earth. But that’s not mono-theism is it? The belief is that there are, in fact, other Gods some where.

 

[ricko]

“…some misguided members of the Church may ‘begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed’ with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father…” —The Ensign, June 1998, p. 59

“I will preach on the plurality of Gods… I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370

“We Worship the Father… In an official interpretation of Moses 1:6, the First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, And Charles W. Penrose) said: ‘But the sole object of worship, God the eternal Father, stands supreme and alone…’ Who is the sole object of worship?.. President George Q. Cannon taught: ‘…We know also that our Father in Heaven should be the object of our worship… He will not have any divided worship. We are commanded to worship Him, and Him only.’ (Gospel Truth, 1:135)” —Come Unto Christ —Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1986, p. 46-47

To sum it up, the LDS believe there are three Gods, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But they pray to and worship only the Father not the Son or the Holy Spirit.

 

[dianaiad]

But you don’t think they are truely one do you? They are each individually God, in their own right arent’ they? Or at the very least, every single ex-mormon discussing the faith regardless of where they’ve converted to stated exactly that. You don’t believe in a single universal God.

You try and say this is a matter of perspective, that we have one God, for earth. But that’s not mono-theism is it? The belief is that there are, in fact, other Gods some where.

Actually, we believe that God the Father created the entire universe. We even have a scripture that specifically mentions His creating 'worlds without number." We believe that He created them through His Son, Jesus. I know that I’m repeating that, but you seem to have missed it when I mentioned it the first time. We do not believe that God the Father is the God of THIS earth only, nor that Jesus the Christ is in ‘charge’ of this earth only.

Universe. All of it. Every galaxy, black hole, binary star system, nebula, star and planet. The whole thing. That is rather important.

Now…are we monotheists? Well, sort of. Are we polytheists? Also…sort of, if you look at the Christian system from OUTSIDE the Christian system, (from the perspective of Muslims and Jews, for instance, who really are unabashed monotheists) all of Christianity is polytheistic. On the other hand, looking at it from very polytheistic groups, like the Hindus, I guess we are all a lot closer to monotheism than not.

I personally would call Mormonism “henotheistic,” but not because of the Trinity. You see, we beleive rather strongly in one Godhead…and that three Persons make up that Godhead; God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. They are One in thought, in purpose…(and to repeat myself yet again) and in that…whatever it is…that makes them God. Not 'Gods," plural, but “God.” That…whatever it is…may not be what you might call ‘substance,’ but it is something that They do not share with any of the REST of us. We believe that they are separate Beings. We worship God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ, because Jesus 'bought us with a Price." His the only Name by which we may be saved.

Now if I knew exactly what it is you are attempting to GET at, it might help…

 

[ricko]

Actually, we believe that God the Father created the entire universe. We even have a scripture that specifically mentions His creating 'worlds without number." We believe that He created them through His Son, Jesus. I know that I’m repeating that, but you seem to have missed it when I mentioned it the first time. We do not believe that God the Father is the God of THIS earth only, nor that Jesus the Christ is in ‘charge’ of this earth only.

Universe. All of it. Every galaxy, black hole, binary star system, nebula, star and planet. The whole thing. That is rather important.

Now…are we monotheists? Well, sort of. Are we polytheists? Also…sort of, if you look at the Christian system from OUTSIDE the Christian system, (from the perspective of Muslims and Jews, for instance, who really are unabashed monotheists) all of Christianity is polytheistic. On the other hand, looking at it from very polytheistic groups, like the Hindus, I guess we are all a lot closer to monotheism than not.

I personally would call Mormonism “henotheistic,” but not because of the Trinity. You see, we beleive rather strongly in one Godhead…and that three Persons make up that Godhead; God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. They are One in thought, in purpose…(and to repeat myself yet again) and in that…whatever it is…that makes them God. Not 'Gods," plural, but “God.”

and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370

That…whatever it is…may not be what you might call ‘substance,’ but it is something that They do not share with any of the REST of us. We believe that they are separate Beings. We worship God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ, because Jesus 'bought us with a Price." His the only Name by which we may be saved.

Now if I knew exactly what it is you are attempting to GET at, it might help…

 

[JC_Forgiven]

Now…are we monotheists? Well, sort of. Are we polytheists? I personally would call Mormonism “henotheistic,”

I think you can make an argument for monotheism, bitheism, tritheism, trinitarianism, henotheism, and polytheism. Yet there is simply no single existing technical term that describes Mormonism.

I think it’s also fair to say, as dianaiad remarked, they really don’t know either.

 

[JC_Forgiven]

ricko:
“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!”
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 473

 

[dianaiad]

I think you can make an argument for monotheism, bitheism, tritheism, trinitarianism, henotheism, and polytheism. Yet there is simply no single existing technical term that describes Mormonism.

I think it’s also fair to say, as dianaiad remarked, they really don’t know either.

Most Mormons want to say ‘monotheist,’ but that doesn’t work…because if we can look at Catholics and other trintarians and say ‘polytheist’ when compared to Judaism or Islam, then we are at least one step further into polytheism than they are. However, We do beleive in the one Godhead…composed of three Beings, and we only pray to One of Them. That, among other reasons, leads me to think that the proper classification would be henotheist.

(shrug) Whatever, we are RIGHT, and that’s the part that counts.