Is Muhammad foretold in the Bible?

[Lily_Bernans]

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

Was Paul “nuts?”

God doesn’t speak to me like he spoke to St. Paul. He didn’t appear before me and talk to me.

 

[TonyBS]

Anything new yet, Tony, because this is proselytizing. I had JWs come round to the door the other day doing the same thing.

Well off topic Friarchips - But I guess there is always the people that will always accuse people of proselytizing, such an overused word now.

Talking about concepts of Faith will always bring discussions that require further clarification.

I can assure you there is a myriad of information and discussions that we have not even touched upon and that I would not bring up knowing the accusation is just around the corner.

I guess you will have to consider why there are Christians on the Earth. All new religion could be accused of proselytizing.

A sign of the times in the Western world, maybe afraid that an alternate view may carry some weight. maybe afraid when a point is made.

Great thing about where I live now, Religious discussion is not Taboo and the word proselytizing not yet in the Vocabulary.

There are Millions more likely Billions that accept Muhammad is foretold in the Bible, thus I guess at some time people will have to get used to this!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[friardchips]

Well off topic Friarchips - But I guess there is always the people that will always accuse people of proselytizing, such an overused word now.

Talking about concepts of Faith will always bring discussions that require further clarification.

I can assure you there is a myriad of information and discussions that we have not even touched upon and that I would not bring up knowing the accusation is just around the corner.

I guess you will have to consider why there are Christians on the Earth. All new religion could be accused of proselytizing.

A sign of the times in the Western world, maybe afraid that an alternate view may carry some weight. maybe afraid when a point is made.

Great thing about where I live now, Religious discussion is not Taboo and the word proselytizing not yet in the Vocabulary.

There are Millions more likely Billions that accept Muhammad is foretold in the Bible, thus I guess at some time people will have to get used to this!

God Bless and Regards Tony

Hi Tony. This is right on topic. Just stating that something is a possible theory isn’t enough to make it so. Now did you wish me to cite some very well-researched source material, or not, because I did ask this?!

 

[friardchips]

edited.

 

[Servant19]

Well, no actually.

The cloud references in the Old Testament, New Testament and in Catholicism are not merely that Jesus ascended in the "theological cloud,” but very clearly that Jesus is God.

In the Old Testament it is God and God alone who is above the clouds.

Yahweh is the One who “rides" the clouds because he is above them:

“Sing praises to God and to his name! Sing loud praises to him who rides the clouds. His name is Yahweh — rejoice in his presence!” Psalm 68:4

“Let all that I am praise Yahweh. O Yahweh my God, how great you are! You are robed with honor and majesty. You are dressed in a robe of light. You stretch out the starry curtain of the heavens; you lay out the rafters of your home in the rain clouds. You make the clouds your chariot; you ride upon the wings of the wind.” Psalm 104:1-3

“This message came to me concerning Egypt: Look! Yahweh is advancing against Egypt, riding on a swift cloud. The idols of Egypt tremble. The hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.” Isaiah 19:1

When the prophets, like Daniel, speak of “coming ON the clouds of heaven,” they are referring to God.

“As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language worshiped him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14

“But in the end, the holy people of the Most High will be given the kingdom, and they will rule forever and ever… until the Ancient of Days—the Most High—came and judged in favor of his holy people. Then the time arrived for the holy people to take over the kingdom.… Then the sovereignty, power, and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him.” Daniel 7:18, 22, 27

“Rejoice, O people of Zion! Shout in triumph, O people of Jerusalem! Look, your King is coming to you. He is righteous and victorious, yet he is humble, riding on a donkey—riding on a donkey’s colt. I will remove the battle chariots from Israel and the warhorses from Jerusalem. I will destroy all the weapons used in battle, and your king will bring peace to the nations. His realm will stretch from sea to sea and from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth. Because of the covenant I made with you, sealed with blood, I will free your prisoners from death in a waterless dungeon… Yahweh will appear above his people; his arrows will fly like lightning! The Sovereign Yahweh will sound the ram’s horn and attack like a whirlwind from the southern desert. Yahweh of hosts will protect his people, and they will defeat their enemies by hurling great stones. They will shout in battle as though drunk with wine. They will be filled with blood like a bowl, drenched with blood like the corners of the altar.** On that day Yahweh their God will rescue his people, just as a shepherd rescues his sheep.** They will sparkle in his land.” Zechariah 9:9-11, 14-16

“And Yahweh will be King over all the earth. On that day there will be one Yahweh — his name the only one… In the end, the enemies of Jerusalem who survive the plague will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Shelters. Any nation in the world that refuses to come to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, will have no rain.” Zechariah 14:9, 16-17

These are precisely the words Jesus uses to describe himself and his coming.

“Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, ‘Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?’ But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I Am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ The high priest tore his clothes. ‘Why do we need any more witnesses?’ he asked. ‘You have heard the blasphemy.’” Mark 14:60-64

Thank you Peter

The point was that you do not require a physical body to ride the clouds of heaven. Eric implied this when stating that Muhammad is buried.

Burial is irrelevant to riding a cloud, as fully attested in the Psalms verses you quote…

.

 

[TonyBS]

Hi Tony. This is right on topic. Just stating that something is a possible theory isn’t enough to make it so. Now did you wish me to cite some very well-researched source material, or not, because I did ask this?!

Dear friarchips - You can quote all you need to quote

Consider prior to the posting that I am sure the Jews have a wonderful pile of research that they can gift to you so you can forget you Love Jesus the Christ and indeed you have it quite wrong that He was foretold in the Old Testament.

Also consider all the evidence you give them to the contrary will achieve exactly where we are at

Thus if you post your research which Love do you wish me to give Up. Moses, Jesus the Christ, Muhammad, the Bab or Baha’u’llah? Consider the rejection of any One of these to me is the rejection of all.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Peter_Plato]

Thank you Peter

The point was that you do not require a physical body to ride the clouds of heaven.

No, actually, the point is that in the Old Testament (and the New) ONLY God rides the clouds of heaven.

 

[ericc]

This is a simple misunderstanding eric…

The passage does not indicate that this is the ONLY time that Jerusalem comes under Gentile rule. The 1260 years is used to draw a parallel between the duration of Islam and the consequent fall of Jerusalem during the Islamic Dispensation. The time span is similar.

I’d have to disagree. If you hold that 622AD is the date for your prophecy to work out correctly and the dates didn’t agree with any history, then it can’t be true. I didn’t claim that is the ONLY time that Jerusalem came under gentile rule. I am claiming that your prophecy alleging Jerusalem came under gentile rule in 622AD is wrong.

It is the 1260 of the Islamic Dispensation which is significant. When the 1260 years ended, it has been noted that Jerusalem was flourishing again.

I am not even arguing whether that is true or not. I can’t decide for you which one is important or less important. The start of all this is that a claim for something was made for 100% accuracy and I show that it is not true. I am not going to decide for you what is important for you and what is not. You can pick and choose the incorrect parts to be less important and I’d grant you that liberty.

But what is important is that if general history can not be even portrayed correctly, what kind of accuracy can others expect other portions not in recorded in history to be portrayed?

And the flourishing part of Jerusalem, do you have any statistics to back that up? Perhaps it is after 1259 years or 1261 years or by an even wider margin. You see you make such claims but you don’t provide any facts. Since 622AD is NOT that date, when do the years counting start? When did Jerusalem from Jewish hands fall into the hands of the gentiles?

In regards to Muhammad and Ali rising up to heaven, they both did, under the allegorical cloud.

Of course and everything else there can also be allegorized. Like the bodies of Mohammed and Ali lying on the streets for 3.5 days/years. And since we can spin a story about allegories in any circumstances, then anything goes I guess.

The cloud reference in Catholicism is not a literal cloud, official teaching is that Jesus ascended in the theological cloud representative of God, the cloud that guided Moses.

Have you ascertained that this is the official Catholic teaching? References please. Never mind, skip that. That would be out of topic.

 

[Servant19]

No, actually, the point is that in the Old Testament (and the New) ONLY God rides the clouds of heaven.

Yes, indeed Peter

Who else but God rides the clouds of heaven? Also the Word of God is in the clouds too, let’s not forget…

.

 

[Servant19]

I’d have to disagree. If you hold that 622AD is the date for your prophecy to work out correctly and the dates didn’t agree with any history, then it can’t be true. I didn’t claim that is the ONLY time that Jerusalem came under gentile rule. I am claiming that your prophecy alleging Jerusalem came under gentile rule in 622AD is wrong.

I am not even arguing whether that is true or not. I can’t decide for you which one is important or less important. The start of all this is that a claim for something was made for 100% accuracy and I show that it is not true. I am not going to decide for you what is important for you and what is not. You can pick and choose the incorrect parts to be less important and I’d grant you that liberty.

But what is important is that if general history can not be even portrayed correctly, what kind of accuracy can others expect other portions not in recorded in history to be portrayed?

And the flourishing part of Jerusalem, do you have any statistics to back that up? Perhaps it is after 1259 years or 1261 years or by an even wider margin. You see you make such claims but you don’t provide any facts. Since 622AD is NOT that date, when do the years counting start? When did Jerusalem from Jewish hands fall into the hands of the gentiles?

Hi eric,

Let me ask you, have the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled?
Is Jerusalem still being trodden under foot?
Are the Jews in control of Jerusalem?
The regaining of control of Jerusalem by the Jews was March 21st, 1844 when the Edict of Toleration was signed and within 8 years of that date the majority of Jerusalem was Jewish.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_1844

So whenever you wish to insist that Jerusalem was ovetaken by Gentiles, whether it’s 136AD, 637 AD or whatever, the end of that Gentile period has come and gone.

Of course and everything else there can also be allegorized. Like the bodies of Mohammed and Ali lying on the streets for 3.5 days/years. And since we can spin a story about allegories in any circumstances, then anything goes I guess.

This is in reference to the spirit of Islam being dead since it’s covenant was broken early within it’s history…

Have you ascertained that this is the official Catholic teaching? References please. Never mind, skip that. That would be out of topic.

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, 2011 (pp. 282-283)

.

 

[friardchips]

Dear friarchips - You can quote all you need to quote

Consider prior to the posting that I am sure the Jews have a wonderful pile of research that they can gift to you so you can forget you Love Jesus the Christ and indeed you have it quite wrong that He was foretold in the Old Testament.

Thus if you post your research which Love do you wish me to give Up. Moses, Jesus the Christ, Muhammad, the Bab or Baha’u’llah? Consider the rejection of any One of these to me is the rejection of all

Also consider all the evidence you give them to the contrary will achieve exactly where we are at

Here, I quote back to you my contribution, in post 49, to which I received no logical counter-response:

*"Please understand that the reason the OT and the NT are unique in their relationship with one another is because the NT happened later but ended up supernaturally explaining and adding substance and root to everything that happened in the OT. This LIVED creativity could not have been authored by human hands. The Author had to have been omnipotent.

This cannot be said for religions that came after because any writings after the OT and the NT is outside of the unique relationship between the two."*

IN answer to my question whether you’d like to see some research on the topic, you have, in effect, said that you don’t mind what is posted on here in the future because you’ve already made up your mind?

Not-to-worry then.

 

[ffg]

Dear FFG - That is One conclusion a person could make. Consider it is not the only conclusion.

Personally the timing of Muhammads Revelation was as to God doeth as He Willeth.

At the begining when the Doctrine of the Trinity was being formulated as a future guide to mankind, Muhammad came and said do not make of God a Trinity. he confirmed there is only One God, and that the connection of God, the Holy Spirit and of Christ exists and the purpose is to know and Love God.

Yes this is a challenge. From another point of view all these complexities can be balanced, but each person must look for this themselves.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Thanks for the reply Tony,

To claim there is no Truth is self-defeating.

Thus, knowing there is Truth, perspectives are important to hash out what is True.

Perspectives that lead to what is not true might be interesting, or comfortable, but still not true.

Jesus is either God or He is not.

Regardless of if Jesus is God, the Bible claims Jesus is God.

Then, someone claiming the Bible references Muhammad is essentially saying that the Bible says…

‘Jesus is God and has communicated, but don’t listen to Him, look for this future person, and listen at that time.’

I don’t find that to be logical.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Thanks for the reply Tony,

To claim there is no Truth is self-defeating.

Thus, knowing there is Truth, perspectives are important to hash out what is True.

Perspectives that lead to what is not true might be interesting, or comfortable, but still not true.

Jesus is either God or He is not.

Regardless of if Jesus is God, the Bible claims Jesus is God.

Then, someone claiming the Bible references Muhammad is essentially saying that the Bible says…

‘Jesus is God and has communicated, but don’t listen to Him, look for this future person, and listen at that time.’

I don’t find that to be logical.

Well, actually, it is worse than that.

Muslims claim the Bible was corrupted by Jews and Christians and, therefore, cannot be taken as properly depicting the will or word of God.

Yet, here we have someone using the “corrupt” Bible to prove that Muhammad is foretold in the Bible as if they hold complete trust in what the Bible says to begin with.

Just seems odd.

 

[ffg]

Well, actually, it is worse than that.

Muslims claim the Bible was corrupted by Jews and Christians and, therefore, cannot be taken as properly depicting the will or word of God.

Yet, here we have someone using the “corrupt” Bible to prove that Muhammad is foretold in the Bible as if they hold complete trust in what the Bible says to begin with.

Just seems odd.

Most certainly.

Claiming the Bible can’t be trusted, yet trusting it, is a perspective that is difficult to use in debate.

 

[Servant19]

Well, actually, it is worse than that.

Muslims claim the Bible was corrupted by Jews and Christians and, therefore, cannot be taken as properly depicting the will or word of God.

Yet, here we have someone using the “corrupt” Bible to prove that Muhammad is foretold in the Bible as if they hold complete trust in what the Bible says to begin with.

Just seems odd.

I think it’s important to see what MUHAMMAD claims about the Bible rather than some blabbering fools teaching you their own versions of Islam for you to take on as ammunition against Muhammad.

wikiislam.net/wiki/Corruption_of_Previous_Scriptures_(Qur’an_2:79

Taking in the words of blabbering fools as gospel is not healthy…

.

 

[Servant19]

Thanks for the reply Tony,

To claim there is no Truth is self-defeating.

Thus, knowing there is Truth, perspectives are important to hash out what is True.

Perspectives that lead to what is not true might be interesting, or comfortable, but still not true.

Jesus is either God or He is not.

Regardless of if Jesus is God, the Bible claims Jesus is God.

Then, someone claiming the Bible references Muhammad is essentially saying that the Bible says…

‘Jesus is God and has communicated, but don’t listen to Him, look for this future person, and listen at that time.’

I don’t find that to be logical.

Why can’t God incarnate more than once?
Are you limiting Gods abilities?

.

 

[Mystrx]

only when Jesus warns of people that were coming that would lead other astray…

 

[ffg]

Why can’t God incarnate more than once?
Are you limiting Gods abilities?

.

Let’s go this way -

Is God perfect? (Does He ever correct Himself?)

If there is a God, He would never be wrong, He wouldn’t have a need to correct Himself.

Since God would be perfect, He certainly wouldn’t create chaos by teaching variances.

Concluding that God is logical is not limiting God.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Why can’t God incarnate more than once?
Are you limiting Gods abilities?

.

God incarnated once – apparently that establishes his ability to do so without question. If he can once, there is no need to ask whether he could “more than once.” Nothing could limit him from doing so.

The next question to be asked is whether he had or has the reason or the will to do so more than once.

This obviously means that your objection is misplaced and without merit.

“Why did he incarnate once?” is the question you need to answer if you wish to be taken seriously with regard to why he would “more than once.”

So, why did he? Do you have a good reason – one that aligns with the reasons his early followers, those who knew him the best, have handed down to us – a reason so good that it leads us to think he really ought to or needed to have done so more than once?

 

[Peter_Plato]

I think it’s important to see what MUHAMMAD claims about the Bible rather than some blabbering fools teaching you their own versions of Islam for you to take on as ammunition against Muhammad.

wikiislam.net/wiki/Corruption_of_Previous_Scriptures_(Qur’an_2:79

Taking in the words of blabbering fools as gospel is not healthy…

.

Excellent! Good to hear that Muhammad claimed that the Bible was never corrupted.

That means the words of Moses, the Prophets and Jesus are true.

Ergo:

Jesus said …, “**I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. **Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.” (John 11:25-7)

And…

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(John 14:6)

And…

[Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:15-19)

Clearly, Jesus gave us all that we need to come to the Father and he gave us a Church founded on Peter, the rock, which has full authority on earth to bind and loose and determine with authority what the Scriptures mean.

Therefore, there was no further need for any other prophet or book. I am fine with the fact that Muhammad agreed that the Bible was not corrupted by any human hands. Excellent that he realized that.

Since the Bible and the Church agree that all we need is Jesus to “come to the Father,” and that he is the Way, the Truth and the Life, we have no need for further embellishments or refinements because we have everything required for eternal life with God.