Is.my.church/eparchy.terrible?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ukrforever
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
U

Ukrforever

Guest
Hi,I.really.starting.to.have.missgivings.about.the.Ukranian.church.I.go.to.This.church.has.
no.iconostasis.people,regulary.pray.the.rosery.before.Mass.Also,sometimes.they.have.public.recitations.of.the.rosery.on.certain.days.of.the.week.The.parishoners.dont.go.to.
confession.regularyThey.have.station.of.the.cross.devotions.at.easter.They.are.the.largest.parish.anywhere.in,the.north-west.of.canada.To.top.it.off.the.bishop.of.the.eparchy.of.
Toronto.wont.do.anything.to.set.them.straight.What.kind.of.eparchy.is.this.anyway???
They.should.do.everything.they.can.to.hold.their.Ukranian.traditions!!
My.question.is.should.I.just.leave.and.forget.this.parish.and.eparchy.all.together?One.
person.cant.change.the.eparchy.and.this.parish.I.tried.no.one.listens.including.the.bishop!

Sorry.about.the.periods.but.my.spacebar.doesnt.work.However.its.better.than.this:
HimynameisUkrforever.Iamukraniancatholic------------bet.this.is.harder.to.understand!!!
 
Uk, I sent you a private message. To read it, you can click on your messages in the upper right hand corner.
🙂
 
OK, well then you can ignore my private message about your spacebar. 😃
Here’s a suggestion, then: just use periods in your posts, but please not in your thread titles if those are beyond about 3 words. Otherwise, it lengthens your thread title so much that it widens the entire page for all the readers of this discussion forum.

Perhaps you could just code your titles with something like Issue.1, then the next one Issue.2. Etc. Or Problem.
or
Concern.

Short and sweet, please. 🙂 Thanks in advance for your courtesy. 🙂
 
Ukrforever said:
Hi,I.really.starting.to.have.missgivings.about.the.Ukranian.church.I.go.to.This.church.has.
no.iconostasis.people,regulary.pray.the.rosery.before.Mass.Also,sometimes.they.have.public.recitations.of.the.rosery.on.certain.days.of.the.week.The.parishoners.dont.go.to.
confession.regularyThey.have.station.of.the.cross.devotions.at.easter.They.are.the.largest.parish.anywhere.in,the.north-west.of.canada.To.top.it.off.the.bishop.of.the.eparchy.of.
Toronto.wont.do.anything.to.set.them.straight.What.kind.of.eparchy.is.this.anyway???
They.should.do.everything.they.can.to.hold.their.Ukranian.traditions!!
My.question.is.should.I.just.leave.and.forget.this.parish.and.eparchy.all.together?One.
person.cant.change.the.eparchy.and.this.parish.I.tried.no.one.listens.including.the.bishop!

Sorry.about.the.periods.but.my.spacebar.doesnt.work.However.its.better.than.this:
HimynameisUkrforever.Iamukraniancatholic------------bet.this.is.harder.to.understand!!!
Click to expand...
First you should talk to your priest about your distress, and if you don’t find satisfaction, write to the Bishop. How do you know he has “done nothing”?

There is nothing you can do about parishioners not going to confession except encourage them, and pray that the HS will convict them to seek His grace. This is not just a problem in the Ukranian tradition, but all over the West.

In general I think it is not good to leave a floundering parish. We are all called to evangelize, beginning with those closest to us. If you are provoked by the practices, then it is likely you are called to pray and intercede for your parish.

With regard to the Rosary, although it is not an Eastern tradition, it is not contrary either. It is prayed this way also in my local Byzantine parish. It does not need to replace the traditional Eastern prayers, but may complement them. Our Mother is a powerful intercessor, and if you take your concerns about the Church to her, her prayers will be efficacious.

Of all the abuses that can happen, praying the Rosary seems to be the least of the Church’s problems!
 
Elizabeth502 said:
OK, well then you can ignore my private message about your spacebar. 😃
Here’s a suggestion, then: just use periods in your posts, but please not in your thread titles if those are beyond about 3 words. Otherwise, it lengthens your thread title so much that it widens the entire page for all the readers of this discussion forum.

Perhaps you could just code your titles with something like Issue.1, then the next one Issue.2. Etc. Or Problem.
or
Concern.

Short and sweet, please. 🙂 Thanks in advance for your courtesy. 🙂
Click to expand...
I second this! Thank you! 👍🙂
 
You can also do the following:

With your mouse, highlight and select a space from someplace (such as this sentence). Copy it to your clipboard by typing CTRL-C. Then every time you reach the end of a word, simply paste the space in by typing CTRL-V. This would be much appreciated, especially in the titles of threads.
 
About the broken keyboard, I am a regular curb troller as well as Craigslist.com nut. I ALWAYS see keyboards by the side of the road in the nicer neighborhoods the night before trash night. Also see them for free on Craigslist all the time as well. If you do not see one in your area you can post in wanted, one free keyboard. I am sure somebody will be happy to help you out. I bet there are a lot of people in your church with some in their closets right now.

Happy Hunting!
 
MarkThompson said:
You can also do the following:

With your mouse, highlight and select a space from someplace (such as this sentence). Copy it to your clipboard by typing CTRL-C. Then every time you reach the end of a word, simply paste the space in by typing CTRL-V. This would be much appreciated, especially in the titles of threads.
Click to expand...
Speedypizza said:
About the broken keyboard, I am a regular curb troller as well as Craigslist.com nut. I ALWAYS see keyboards by the side of the road in the nicer neighborhoods the night before trash night. Also see them for free on Craigslist all the time as well. If you do not see one in your area you can post in wanted, one free keyboard. I am sure somebody will be happy to help you out. I bet there are a lot of people in your church with some in their closets right now.

Happy Hunting!
Click to expand...
Both of these are excellent ideas. I know I have thrown out numerous keyboards over the years as well.
 
Hi,thanks-for-all-the-spacebar-suggestions.However,im-going-to-try-a-suggestion-sent-
to-me-by-private-message-by-elizabeth.I-tried-talking-with-the-bishop-about-my-church-
and-his-secretary-told-me-to-handle-the-iconostasis-issue-on-my-own.That-the-bishop-
was-too-busy-with-more-serious-matters.Even-though-I-pointed-out-that-they-were-
breaking-canon-law-by-not-having-one.I-thought-one-of-the-reasons-of-having-a-bishop-
in-the-first-place-was-to-make-sure-rules-were-upheld.This-eparchy-bishop-is-terrible-
he-clearly-isnt-doing-his-job.Thats-why-the-eparchy-of-Toronto-is-in-such-bad-shape.
This-bishop-should-be-repremanded-for-what-he-allows-to-go-on-in-the-churches-he-
controls.All-Eastern-Catholics-please-comment.Please-no-more-diologue-on-my-spacing-
problem!!My-parish-is-the-largest-parish-in-all-of-Northwestern-Ontario.
 
Dear brother Ukrforever,

I am not an Eastern-Byzantine, but from what I know of how the Easterns run their parishes, your bishop gave you good advice. AFAIK, local Eastern parishes are for the most part run and owned by the congregation and the pastor (?). If the congregation chooses not to have an iconostasis, that’s where the buck stops. I think the suggestion given by brother ConstantineTG has merit.

Also, since your eparchy is the largest in Canada, perhaps your bishop really is busier than the average bishop. So cut him some slack.🙂

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Ukrforever said:
Hi,thanks-for-all-the-spacebar-suggestions.However,im-going-to-try-a-suggestion-sent-
to-me-by-private-message-by-elizabeth.I-tried-talking-with-the-bishop-about-my-church-
and-his-secretary-told-me-to-handle-the-iconostasis-issue-on-my-own.That-the-bishop-
was-too-busy-with-more-serious-matters.Even-though-I-pointed-out-that-they-were-
breaking-canon-law-by-not-having-one.I-thought-one-of-the-reasons-of-having-a-bishop-
in-the-first-place-was-to-make-sure-rules-were-upheld.This-eparchy-bishop-is-terrible-
he-clearly-isnt-doing-his-job.Thats-why-the-eparchy-of-Toronto-is-in-such-bad-shape.
This-bishop-should-be-repremanded-for-what-he-allows-to-go-on-in-the-churches-he-
controls.All-Eastern-Catholics-please-comment.Please-no-more-diologue-on-my-spacing-
problem!!My-parish-is-the-largest-parish-in-all-of-Northwestern-Ontario.
Click to expand...
You are right, it is the duty of the bishop to ensure the proper doctrine and practice of the faith. If, as you say, the epharchy is in such bad shape, it is likely that he is much pre-occupied with the salvation of souls under his charge, and it may well be that an iconostasis is not as high on his priority list as it is on yours.

It is judgemental to say “he is terrible and not doing his job”. You have no idea what he has to deal with on any given day. It may be that he is quite overwhelmed, and not getting enough help.

You can do your part by first refraining from such judgmental attitudes, and pray for him more fervently. Every time you are provoked by the issues in your parish, pray for reform, and offer up your losses to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. You might also consider offering yourself to your priest and bishop in service. If there is some way you can take up the slack, maybe those in the position of authority will be more able to exercise it.

We are bothered by things like this so that we are motivated to act to change them. It is part of how we are called to service.
 
mardukm said:
AFAIK, local Eastern parishes are for the most part run and owned by the congregation and the pastor (?). If the congregation chooses not to have an iconostasis, that’s where the buck stops.
Click to expand...
Actually, no, they are owned - as are all Catholic temples - by the Eparch functioning as ‘a corporation sole’. The trusteeship battles of the early 20th century pretty much eliminated local ownership.
 
My Ukrainian friend,

You reference the Eparchy of Toronto, but then refer to northwestern Canada - which is in the proper territory of the Archeparchy of Winnipeg. Are you meaning that the parish is in the northwestern corner of the Eparchy of Toronto?

As regards the latinizations that you describe, they are not uncommon among Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes in Canada or elsewhere, although more effort is being put into eliminating them (admittedly, it varies from place to place). You have to keep in mind a few things.

During the Nazi and Communist periods, Ukrainian Greek-Catholics were deprived civilly of the right to practice their faith and to serve according to the praxis of their Church. Their priests were martyred or imprisoned, as were their bishops. To even continue practising as Catholics, many worshipped with Latin Catholics, whose Church was given a bit more slack because the universality of Western Catholicism made it a bit more politically unacceptable to use the same tactics as heavily, as frequently, and as openly.

In the decades that they worshipped with the Latins, they invariably adopted many aspects of Latin spirituality, devotion, and praxis. By the time that their Church was rehabilitated, it was difficult to separate what was theirs - and younger priests had grown up in a Latin milieu. Immigrating to North America, be it Canada or the US, had no cleansing effect in this regard - because the earlier immigrants to here (those who came at the turn of the century) had already had their own ecclesial brainwashing. They wanted and needed, or felt they did, to be as ‘American’ or ‘Canadian’ as possible - to fit in, to be accepted, and to have the local (Latin) hierarchs under whose jurisdiction they came - to be accepting of them. So, they made themselves acceptable by trying to look as much like Latins - except for language - as they could.

Our peoples all did it - the Ukrainians, the Ruthenians, the Slovaks, the Melkites, the Hungarians, the Croats, and the Romanians. Most all Byzantines, excepting the Russians and Belarusians.

Change takes time and you need to relax and work with it. You risk coming across as impatient and prideful, thnking oneself as ‘better’, ‘more Ukrainian’, ‘more nash’, ‘more traditional’. Pray, work with others, believe in what you know to be the true tradition and praxis of your Church, but don’t try to change the world overnight.

Although I absolutely despise latinization - be it imposed or adopted (and much of yours will have been adopted, not imposed), I understand why people have a mindset that accepts, allows, encourages it - your best hope is in the youth who often hunger for authenticity - but they need to mature to the point that they are the leaders of the church community. It takes time - you are looking to change, overnight, a century’s worth of accumulated bad habits. Won’t happen.
 
Anyway the reason I emailed you is I wanted to give you some insight I learned on the Iconostasis issue.

When I was at church of St.Marys-for choir practice I learned that the rebuilt church did not have an Iconostasis until after our-church-was built . That means that most of the original parishoners from St.Marys- did not grow up with one. Over the years many parishoners-at-our-church- brought up the subject of getting one. However every time they were unable to reach an agreement because you cant recommend or disagree with something you have never tried.

I think parishoners would be just as upset if you put one in now or two years down the road. The whole issue is they think the young people will leave once one is put in. However,it.might make.the.Litergy.more.hands on and interesting.to.the.young.people.

The key I believe is to be persistant and subtle.if.you.still.would.like.to.do.something.like.this. Sort of like Jesus did when he preached in the temple. Introduce the idea weeks before anything is done. Than, slowly start adding pieces of the chosen Iconostasis to the front of the church. Thus, easing us through this time of transition.

I also learned that every priest has left his mark on the interior of -our-church-. Ultimately if this is meant to be your mark, God will provide you with the “tools” to make it happen. Just pray on it, he will point you on the right path!

Your friend,Ukrforever
Letter-I-sent-my-pastor.What-does-everyone-think?Let-me-know!!!
 
Actually-im-not-Ukranian-im-Ruthenian.There-is-no-ruth-church-in-or-close-too-my-
city.They-are-almost-100%-simillar-in-culture-and-language-anyway.😃
 
Ukrforever said:
.This.church.has.no.iconostasis
Click to expand...
Be grateful that you have a church regardless that is has no ikonostasis and they chant the Rosary to the Mother of God!!!:byzsoc:

My relatives in Slovakia had no church to go to during the Communist times! The women of the village would gather in the fields and chant the Rosary because the Communists couldn’t stop this. AMOF, the church in my village in Slovakia still does not have an ikonostasis, just 2 simple ikons on stands.:byzsoc:

My grandparents helped to start a church here in the USA. This parish just celebrated it’s 100th anniversary in June and they have only had an ikonostasis for 5 years:thumbsup:

You need to relax and let God do what is in His plan, not yours:D
 
What-does-everyone-think-of-the-letter-I-wrote-to-my-priest?
Also-ruthenians-and-Ukranians-are-very-similar-are-they-not?
I-always-thought-byzantine-slovaks-did-not-have-to-have-an-icon-screen-in-their-tradition?
right?-Anyway,none-of-the-slovak-churches-in-the-eparchy-of-canada-have-one.
All-please-respond-to-my-questions-above.
 
An iconostasis is traditional in all Churches that serve according to the Byzantine Rite, including the Slovak Byzantines.

Keep in mind that construction of an iconostasis is an expensive undertaking and does not happen overnight. Many churches that cannot yet afford to undertake that cost erect a temporary iconostasis using icons on icon stands.

There are no longer any parishes in Canada that would be formally termed as Ruthenian, although there are some parishes of the Ukrainian Metropolia which were historically Ruthenian in their ritual and praxis. Ruthenians in Canada are committed to the pastoral care of the Ukrainian GC Church, although now that the Slovak Eparchy exists as a distinct entity, they could as well be ascribed to it’s pastoral care.
 
This parish is in your Eparchy, and it is an exceptional parish. We have known Archpriest Roman for a number of years and cherish every visit there: www.saintelias.com
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top