Is my friend being Euthanized today?

[andrewstx]

I had a stroke 8 years ago, and was out of it for 12 days. During that time I had terrible nightmares. I even removed my cath and urinated on the floor. The only way I know of it was hosp staff telling me afterward.

I have signed a medical directive, if I have another stroke I do not want to go through all that agian. Those nightmares still come to me with sleep, but have lessend over the years.

 

[graceandglory]

Did she pull the feeding tube out because she didn’t want it? You can’t force someone to have a feeding tube. If she doesn’t want it, she doesn’t want it.

You may also not know all of what is happening with her care. To say she is stable doesn’t mean that she doesn’t need to be in hospice or even that death isn’t imminent. In fact, stable isn’t normally used to define a condition.

Absolutely true, that I may not know everything about her case. Death wasn’t imminent, I know that much. I am the one who said “stable.” She was only moved to hospice when they decided about keeping the feeding tube out.

I am trying to find out Catholic teaching on the feeding tube.

I think this is a quality of life issue.

 

[graceandglory]

From what you’ve written, if this is his intention, I would say he chose to euthanize her. I worked in hospice for several years as an aide, and there are times when a feeding tube is not used out of compassion towards the person’s immediate comfort. For example, when a person’s body is shutting down (“active death.”), the act of digestion can actually bring them more pain and suffering. There are other factors, however. I’m not sure how invasive it is to replace the feeding tube. Some go down the throat, others are inserted through the belly. Even if the person’s vital signs are presently stable, I think it could be argued that there are cases where the risk of causing her suffering by the procedure could merit not replacing the tube. Physical pain, risk of infection, if the procedure involved in replacing the tube carried a high risk of death, etc. But if the only reason to not replace the tube is to avoid the difficult life of living as a quadriplegic, that is not sufficient reason to withhold food and water. This is my opinion, based on what I’ve read and experienced through the years.

I pray for your friend, her husband, and you. May the Mercy of God open our hearts to see and act on His Holy Will. Whatever happens, may your friend be blessed with the Graces she needs for this life and the life to come.

THank you for this response. I think I understand the difference now. I really appreciate the info you brought into this thread. May God bless you in all you do.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Let me try to be clearer. She wasn’t terminally ill. She isn’t dying, she wasn’t on life support. She is quadriplegic, and not presently able to talk, but was told that she could regain some function.

Caring for her would be “a burden” in that someone would have to feed her, change her, bathe her, dress her.

Thank you all for any insight. My gut tells me that her husband does not want a less than perfect wife. He said “she would not have wanted “this life.””

This is horrifying. I have told my family NEVER to assume that I would want to die, no matter how disabled I might become. Suffering that way could unite me fully with Christ, how could they think to deprive me of that opportunity! Also, serving someone in such a condition can be a very powerful ministry for the person doing the work - again, who am I to deprive someone else of that opportunity?

I know my viewpoint is strange to many people. But I worked with multipally-handicapped kids, and I grew from that experience. I considered it an honor to do the work.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The problem is that when people withhold nutrition and hydration in order to cause death, they are committing a mortal sin. They may not be mortally culpable, but it is a mortal sin which is being committed.

I don’t think anyone is trying to commit murder and I don’t think it’s a mortal sin. We aren’t talking about refusing to feed someone, we are talking about modern technology being used to unnaturally prolong the life of someone who would otherwise pass naturally due to their condition. They aren’t putting food into her mouth she can eat, they are using an invention of humans, both the equipment and the stuff that goes into her stomach, to keep her alive. Those are extraordinary measures and the Church does not call for us to subject ourselves to them.

 

[aragonjohn1]

This is horrifying. I have told my family NEVER to assume that I would want to die, no matter how disabled I might become. Suffering that way could unite me fully with Christ, how could they think to deprive me of that opportunity! Also, serving someone in such a condition can be a very powerful ministry for the person doing the work - again, who am I to deprive someone else of that opportunity?

I know my viewpoint is strange to many people. But I worked with multipally-handicapped kids, and I grew from that experience. I considered it an honor to do the work.

thank you for that : )

you’re post moved me :getholy:

Shalom
God Bless you

 

[maryjk]

This is horrifying. I have told my family NEVER to assume that I would want to die, no matter how disabled I might become. Suffering that way could unite me fully with Christ, how could they think to deprive me of that opportunity! Also, serving someone in such a condition can be a very powerful ministry for the person doing the work - again, who am I to deprive someone else of that opportunity?

I know my viewpoint is strange to many people. But I worked with multipally-handicapped kids, and I grew from that experience. I considered it an honor to do the work.

Last year I watched my mother die. I was with her day in, day out. She was totally bedridden, unable to move even her head. She was moved from the hospital to my home. And she spend her last days with our family.

It is hard to describe the time we were able to spend together. We were able to talk about deep issues and to laugh at the birds outside the window. It was an incredible experience. One I wouldn’t have given up for the world.

I never imagine that I could gain anything from the sleepless nights and the long days. But I grew in ways I never could have without my mother’s suffering.

 

[JRKH]

Last year I watched my mother die. I was with her day in, day out. She was totally bedridden, unable to move even her head. She was moved from the hospital to my home. And she spend her last days with our family.

It is hard to describe the time we were able to spend together. We were able to talk about deep issues and to laugh at the birds outside the window. It was an incredible experience. One I wouldn’t have given up for the world.

I never imagine that I could gain anything from the sleepless nights and the long days. But I grew in ways I never could have without my mother’s suffering.

Amen Amen Amen…
The things we gain, the spiritual growth available to caregivers is huge.

But remember so much that we gain from the suffering of the other, though certainly their courage and resignation can be a great comfort and encouragement to us. Rather we gain from the complete giving of ourselves to the other in Love.

Peace
James

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t think anyone is trying to commit murder and I don’t think it’s a mortal sin. We aren’t talking about refusing to feed someone, we are talking about modern technology being used to unnaturally prolong the life of someone who would otherwise pass naturally due to their condition. They aren’t putting food into her mouth she can eat, they are using an invention of humans, both the equipment and the stuff that goes into her stomach, to keep her alive. Those are extraordinary measures and the Church does not call for us to subject ourselves to them.

Read the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s Responses to Certain Questions of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Concerning Artificial Nutrition and Hydration and the accompanying Commentary. Nutrition and hydration (AKA food and water) are considered ordinary care, even if administered by artificial means. That’s the Catholic position.

If the person is going to die by starving to death rather than of their affliction, that’s one clue that some things need to be rethought very carefully, hopefully in consultation with a priest and a doctor respectful of the faith. And I would definitely encourage anyone in such a position to contact the National Catholic Bioethics Center.

 

[Listener]

I noticed from the original post that the patient pulled the feeding tube out.

Now I realize that there is no point of a feeding tube when the patient’s body can’t process the food. But here is another question: What if the patient keeps pulling the feeding tube out? Do you drug the person to the point where he or she can’t pull the tube out any more?

I don’t think I have ever heard this question addressed before.

These people are probably doing the best they can do with a very sick person. I’m not sure what good it does to accuse them of a terrible sin.

 

[Newbie2]

I noticed from the original post that the patient pulled the feeding tube out.

Now I realize that there is no point of a feeding tube when the patient’s body can’t process the food. But here is another question: What if the patient keeps pulling the feeding tube out? Do you drug the person to the point where he or she can’t pull the tube out any more?

I don’t think I have ever heard this question addressed before.

These people are probably doing the best they can do with a very sick person. I’m not sure what good it does to accuse them of a terrible sin.

Each case is different, with a number of different factors that play into the determination of what is “extrordinary”, but keeping a person sedated in order to keep a feeding tube in place does seem like it could be, in some circumstances, extrordinary.

 

[Phemie]

Each case is different, with a number of different factors that play into the determination of what is “extrordinary”, but keeping a person sedated in order to keep a feeding tube in place does seem like it could be, in some circumstances, extrordinary.

The young man I was nursing had had a permanent stoma put in so that you inserted the tube directly into his stomach at feeding time via the stoma in his side. He didn’t even seem to notice it.

 

[maryjk]

The young man I was nursing had had a permanent stoma put in so that you inserted the tube directly into his stomach at feeding time via the stoma in his side. He didn’t even seem to notice it.

Yes, but in the OP, the feeding tube was pulled out. How? Why? Did the patient do it? If so, would you need to medicate the patient to stop them from pulling the tube out?

All of these questions need to be answered, before you put another tube in.

 

[Listener]

These comments raise some more questions. I assume you would have to do surgery to create a “stoma” for the feeding tube. Is that considered ordinary or extraordinary? Would you need the person’s written consent? Also, I have trouble understanding why the Church considers oxygen extraordinary care and a feeding tube ordinary care. If you take someone off oxygen, they will die right away, whereas they could hang on for quite awhile if they didn’t have a feeding tube. Sometimes I think it is helpful to hear from people who have actually worked in hospitals and nursing homes, since they have a better understanding of what works and what doesn’t work.

 

[maryjk]

These comments raise some more questions. I assume you would have to do surgery to create a “stoma” for the feeding tube. Is that considered ordinary or extraordinary? Would you need the person’s written consent?

Yes, they would have to have surgery. Also, a feeding tube placed in the stomach requires surgery.

If someone used a nasal tube, they would not need surgery, just an x-ray after placement. It isn’t painful, but uncomfortable when being placed. And according to my mom, it is irritating while it is there. We were told that we could only use a nasal tube for so long before we were inviting infection.

 

[Cristiano]

These comments raise some more questions. I assume you would have to do surgery to create a “stoma” for the feeding tube. Is that considered ordinary or extraordinary? …

Cardinal Maria Martini reject the use of a stoma because he considered it an extraordinary measure and after a consultation with the physicians he acknowledged that it would not have helped in a significant manner, he died a few days later.

 

[Phemie]

Cardinal Maria Martini reject the use of a stoma because he considered it an extraordinary measure and after a consultation with the physicians he acknowledged that it would not have helped in a significant manner, he died a few days later.

OTOH, having the surgery allows tube feeding that is not irritating to the nasogratic passages. Unless someone has other problems they could live for years on tube feeding. The young man I was looking after had massive brain trauma but his brainstem was still intact. His BP, respirations, and reactions to touch were ‘normal’. He noticed hot and cold and pain. I thought I saw him grimace when I told him I was going to do mouth care (Listerine must taste awful when one of the only things that goes in your mouth) but the staff told me there was no way he understood what I said. Nonetheless, I never cared for him without talking to him.

 

[Chrish1975]

My friend had a stroke 3 months ago. She will not regain her earlier life. She is breathing on her own, but needs a feeding tube. She pulled her feeding tube out. She is not dying. She is stable and was in a rehabilitation center. Her husband decided to not have the feeding tube replace, and moved her into a hospice. The hospice/nursing home happens to be Catholic; however my friend is an evangelical, not a Catholic. They prayed for 2 months for her to be completely healed. That didn’t happen. Now they have put her to sleep in a coma, so that she would not be aware (I think of starving to death), and she is going to die (I think of starvation.)

I feel really uneasy about this. I know she will not regain her former active, athletic life as a Dr. but is it okay to not replace her feeding tube?

Is this a gray area? She needs a feeding tube to live, but they have made the decision to not put it back in. OH, and she is diagnosed as minimally conscious.

If she doesn’t want to live she shouldn’t be forced by strangers to live. Show a little respect for the dying.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

If she doesn’t want to live she shouldn’t be forced by strangers to live. Show a little respect for the dying.

This attitude is so unbelievably dangerous.

 

[graceandglory]

Yes, they would have to have surgery. Also, a feeding tube placed in the stomach requires surgery.

If someone used a nasal tube, they would not need surgery, just an x-ray after placement. It isn’t painful, but uncomfortable when being placed. And according to my mom, it is irritating while it is there. We were told that we could only use a nasal tube for so long before we were inviting infection.

Yes, a stoma should have been placed. It is common for patients to find the feeding tube irritating, and may need some sedation for a few weeks to adjust. The husband did not sign for her to have the stoma. My understanding is that a pt. pulling out their gastric tube is normal. The temporary sedation is also normal. Rather, he sedated her so that she would not notice she was dying of starvation.

I have found articles online that do address this situation.

I went to be with her last Friday at 3:00, in order to pray a divine mercy chaplet. She died at 3:10. I think our angels met that day.