Is my second marriage valid if an annullment was not performed?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lefthand36
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

lefthand36

Guest
Hello,

Someone please help me get an answer to something that is bothering me! I would appreciate honest answers according to church teachings.

My husband and I are recent converts. We joined the church at Easter. I have one previous marriage and so does my present husband. We have been married for 12+ years.

My first marriage was not a first marriage for my first husband. I was his second wife. He has now been married three times. We did not have any children together.

My second husband was married for approximately 3 years and produced one child, which we raised together along with the two children that we have together.

Now, to get to my question. I have wanted to join the Catholic church for many years. I was Lutheran for 14+ years. My hesitation in joining the church was because I feared going through an annullment, because my first marriage was very abusive, both physically and mentally. After visiting the parish that I joined this year and speaking with the priest there at length, he told me that he had the authority to admit me to the church with full communion without an annullment. He said that when there is an issue of one’s safety that he could do that.

I begin to feel uneasy after he told me and my husband to keep quite about this. He did not even make my husband go through the annullment process. His first marriage desolved, because his wife was unfaithful, but they are on speaking terms, because she had visitation rights with my step-daughter.

Someone please tell me if I am taking the Holy Eucharist unworthily, not that anyone receives because we are worthy, because no one is really worthy. But I want to know if my husband and I are committing mortals sins by receiving the Eucharist, and I want to know if our marriage is valid. Also, if we moved to another parish someday, would we not be questioned about all of this later, because my baptismal records indicate my name from my previous marriage. I was baptized as an adult.

Please understand that I did not intentionally hide anything. I simply believed what I was told. And as far as I know, my priest probably does have that authority, but why wasn’t my husband made to go through the annullment process? Why were we told to be quite? Please understand that I love my priest. He has been a blessing to my family, and I would not want to bring him shame. I only want to do what is right before God.

I am so confused. SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND! I AM SO DESPERATE.

Desperately seeking an answer,
 
This does not sound like a question to be answered by your local priest esp. after he says “to keep it quiet” I’d check with the local diocese they can put you in touch with the correct people.

Do check it out, this is very serious, you are only risking your soul.
 
nobody on this forum can help you because we would be talking in generalities, not specifics. You should speak to your current pastor and ask for a referral to the diocesan marriage tribunal to lay the facts of both you and your husband’s previous marriage all out before them. If there is a safety issue, steps will be taken to safeguard your interests. there are several individuals whose marriage status, past and present, must be investigated: you, your husband, and the people to whom either of you were married (and their previous spouses, if any).

for the time being assume that what you were advised by the priest who brought you into the church is valid. Nobody here has the right to second guess him. Go back and ask him for the facts and basis for what you were told, explaining to him why you are troubled. Either he will lay your mind to rest, or direct you where to seek further clarification.
 
The official name for what your priest did is the “internal forum”, sometimes called the “internal forum solution”. One of the requirements of the internal forum is that scandal be avoided; hence the instructions from your priest to keep quiet on the matter.

There was a thread a while back on whether this use of the “internal forum” is legitimate. As often happens here, no conclusion was reached.
 
"because my first marriage was very abusive, both physically and mentally. After visiting the parish that I joined this year and speaking with the priest there at length, he told me that he had the authority to admit me to the church with full communion without an annullment. He said that when there is an issue of one’s safety that he could do that.

I begin to feel uneasy after he told me and my husband to keep quite about this. He did not even make my husband go through the annullment process. His first marriage desolved, because his wife was unfaithful, but they are on speaking terms, because she had visitation rights with my step-daughter."

Generally in this situation the Annulment process is conducted in a way that will not contact the abusive spouse or divulge and information about anyones whereabouts. I have never heard of the Annulment process being waved by a pastor. Call your diocese and ask to speak with a canon lawyer or Tribunal member, ASAP.
 
Catholic World Report Dec 2004 has a very good editorial “Question, who is Married?” on this very problem. the opinion expressed is that the way the annulment process is being abused leads to such confusion and increases the heartache of couples involved, and the disrespect for marriage already prevalent among Catholics. the author Edward Peteres has a canon law degree and has a website www.canonlaw.info. the magazine is published by Ignatius press and no doubt can be accessed from their website. Ignatius.com
 
My first marriage was in the Catholic Church and had to be annulled before I could recieve any sacraments. I too returned to the church, with my current marriage being protestant and therefore invalid. So I was married in the Cath church first and re married anglican. I had a major conversion and returned to the church and wished to recieve the sacraments. No deal. My wife and I are currently living in complete continence so I can recieve the sacraments until our marriage is validated. It’s not the easiest thing(my wife is agnostic) but with God anything is possible. I’m a little confused on your marriage status. What church married you. I realized that I,as a Catholic, was living in sin and it took a little bit of research and wading through a couple of liberal priests before I found out what the truth of the matter was. Find a good priest who won’t just say"don’t rock the boat, don’t worry about it", baloney! do it right.

peace and love
 
remember, the decree of annullment is a juridical determination of a pre-exisiting fact. Your previous marriage does not become null with the granting of the decree of annullment, but was null from the start. Nevertheless,a proper respect should be had for the good order of the Church, but this is a question of a lesser magnitude than other questions.
 
First, regardless of what puzzledannie said, I can indeed address your case – although the answers will be based only upon what you have stated.
  1. There is no “internal forum” solution to marriage cases per the Vatican.
  2. All prior marriages must be submitted to the Tribunal for evaluation.
From a purely objective standpoint, you are in an irregular union. You are, in fact, still married to your first husband. Therefore, you need to have these issues addressed. Since your local priest does not want to do the correct thing (although he has done what he considers compassionate) you will need to contact the Office of Canonical Services at the chancery office to see how to proceed.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
You are, in fact, still married to your first husband. Therefore, you need to have these issues addressed. Since your local priest does not want to do the correct thing (although he has done what he considers compassionate) you will need to contact the Office of Canonical Services at the chancery office to see how to proceed.

Deacon Ed
Click to expand...
May I ask, Deacon, if, as you say, she in fact is still married to her first husband, what is the point of contacting the Chancery?
 
40.png
katherine2:
May I ask, Deacon, if, as you say, she in fact is still married to her first husband, what is the point of contacting the Chancery?
Click to expand...
The Chancery will make the final determination as to the status of the marriages.

But the assumption must always be that the first marriage is valid, and until a final ruling by the Marriage Tribunals (and Rome if necessary) all actions must be based on that assumption.
 
40.png
katherine2:
May I ask, Deacon, if, as you say, she in fact is still married to her first husband, what is the point of contacting the Chancery?
Click to expand...
It would be that she is presumed to be married to her first husband until proven otherwise.
On your point however. If she were to truly feel that her first marriage was in fact valid there would be no point pursuing the Annulment process.
 
I am currently going through the annulment process (it may take up to one -two years!) I was previously married in the Catholic Church.
I was told the only way for a fromal annulment to happen was through the Church Tribunal after carefull evaluation and examination of the previous marriage…peroid!
Right now my husband and I are currently living as brother and sister so that I can recieve the sacrament of Holy Communion…there is no other way unless I was misinformed.
I wish you luck in your search…as others have suggested, contact your local Dioceses for the best answers.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
It would be that she is presumed to be married to her first husband until proven otherwise.
On your point however. If she were to truly feel that her first marriage was in fact valid there would be no point pursuing the Annulment process.
Click to expand...
Thank you Brother Rich and Brendan. You both have provided what I was looking for. My disagreement with the good deacon was his statement that the **fact **of the marriage exists. In truth, its a presumption (or assumption in Brendan’s post) of the marriage, not a fact of the marriage.

God bless all.
 
Deacon Ed,

You said:
  1. There is no “internal forum” solution to marriage cases per the Vatican.
Click to expand...
I don’t mean to be polemical, but instead would like to offer something for consideration regarding evidence that the Vatican, at least in the recent past, has referred to an “internal forum” solution. However, that internal forum solution needs to be understood correctly. Observe,

From the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document of April 11, 1973, addressed to Diocesan Bishops censuring the admittance of invalidly married persons to the sacraments, the final paragraph reads:
“With regard to admission to the sacraments, the local ordinaries will also please, on the one hand, stress the observance of the current discipline of the church while, on the other hand, take care that pastors of souls follow up with particular solicitude those who are living in an irregular union and, in addition to other correct means, use the approved practice of the Church in the internal forum.”
Click to expand...
On March 21, 1975, the same Sacred Congregation explained the phrase “the approved practice of the Church in the internal forum” in the following way:
“The couples may be allowed to receive the sacraments on two conditions, that they try to live according to the demands of Christian moral principles and that they receive the sacraments in churches in which they are not known so that they will not create any scandal.”
Click to expand...
It seems to me there is an internal forum solution, yet the key, in my opinion, is the conditions of that solution, which is to live "according to the demands of Christian moral principles." It appears to me that this includes the condition that the spouses of irregular marriages live without conjugal relations (as brother and sister), and that they are to receive the Sacraments in such a way that public scandal is removed.

This interpretation seems corraborated by the following:
Declaration on Divorced and Remarried Persons
Pontifical Council for Legistlative Texts
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CILTCOMM.HTM

Also, from an EWTN Q&A forum:
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=359077&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=internal+forum&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
A number of priests, in error, attempt to “solve” problems stemming from irregular marriages by providing an “internal forum solution.” In essence the priest, sometimes in the confessional, gives “permission” for a Catholic in an invalid marriage to remain in that relationship, continue conjugal relations, and share in the sacramental life of the Church. The Church has repeatedly stated that such “solutions” are not permitted …

There are provisions, however, for such irregular marriages to be addressed in the internal forum, i.e. not externally or publicly. Such instances tend to be exceptional. When a couple must remain together in an irregular relationship, often for the sake of children, it may be possible for the Catholic(s) to share in the sacraments. This entails the cessation of conjugal relations - living as brother and sister - and the absence of scandal. Usually this involves the Catholic receiving the sacraments at a church where the people are not aware of the irregularity of the union and would not be scandalized. Such situations are best discussed with a wise priest who can provide the guidance and counsel which will undoubtedly be necessary as a couple embarks upon this route.
Click to expand...
 
Cyprian & others,

Sorry that I am just now replying. I lost my job of 5 years, and I have been faxing my resume right and left. The doctor that I work for had a stroke and will not be able to return. What a shock!

Anyway, Cyprian, my first marriage was performed by a Chruch of Christ minister, and my second marriage was perfomed by a Lutheran pastor where I was a member for 14 years before joining the Catholic church. My first marriage was a second marriage for my first husband. He has since married for the third time and divorced that woman, and now lives with another woman.

I do not believe that it was a marriage from the start. He told me things later in our marriage that made me realize that he did not take our vows seriously.

I also found out that what my priest did to avoid the annulment process was called the “internal forum.” However, I am now more confused than I was before, and I feel like a lost sheep.

It should not be this hard to be in God’s house, and receive the Eucharist. Christ is compassionate and full of love and forgiveness. He mingled with sinners.

Now understand that I know that he often said go and sin no more, but if you confess that sin, isn’t it forgiven, or is that simply not enough? Why does everything have to be this difficult?

Honestly, I don’t think Christ would want us to leave the church because we are discouraged, although I feel like doing that,but at the same time, I want to do what is right. I have encountered numberous problems along the way in my desire to be Catholic. Why is it so hard to join the church?

There are far too many differences of opinions by priest. When I talked with several priest, when we were searching for a parish, I got several different answers by several different priest. Shouldn’t all priest adhere to the same principals? Wouldn’t that eliminate many of these problems?

I am just plain old discouraged. But no matter what, I want to hear the truth. It may not be what I want to hear, but it is what I need to hear. My only problem is there are too many different answers. I guess I will have to contact the tribunal. I just don’t want to get my priest into any trouble.

God bless,
 
lefthand36,

I’ve been doing much reading on this, as both my brothers are divorced and remarried. I recommend that you continue to inform your conscience on the matter by studying the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I’m convinced there is an internal forum solution, which is distinct from the external forum (annulment process). Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be speaking of it in the following letter:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
CONCERNING THE RECEPTION OF HOLY COMMUNION
BY THE DIVORCED AND REMARRIED MEMBERS OF THE FAITHFUL
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html

I recommend you read through the entire letter for yourself, as well as Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html

Here’s an excerpt from Cardinal Ratzinger (ltr approved by Pope John Paul II):
In recent years, in various regions, different pastoral solutions * in this area have been suggested according to which … the divorced and remarried members of the faithful could approach Holy Communion in specific cases when they consider themselves authorised according to a judgement of conscience to do so.

In some places, it has also been proposed that in order objectively to examine their actual situation, the divorced and remarried would have to consult a prudent and expert priest. …

In these and similar cases it would be a matter of a tolerant and benevolent pastoral solution in order to do justice to the different situations of the divorced and remarried.
*It seems to me that Cardinal Ratzinger is in fact speaking of the internal forum solution.

He continues, discussing what I believe are the proper conditions of the internal forum solution:
Click to expand...
The faithful who persist in such a situation may receive Holy Communion only after obtaining sacramental absolution
Click to expand...
, which may be given only “to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when for serious reasons, for example, for the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they 'take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples’”(8). In such a case they may receive Holy Communion as long as they respect the obligation to avoid giving scandal…
In my opinion, apart from the external forum solution (annullment process), or the above internal forum solution (complete continence/avoid scandal), you must refrain from receiving the Sacraments.
Click to expand...
 
ItsJustDave,

I, too, have been reading about the internal forum. I agree with you, also. Your information appears accurate to me, because I am understanding the same thing that you are picking up on.

However, the only way for this to be o.k. is that my husband and I live as brother and sister. Meaning, no sex. Right?

My husband and I have a wonderful relationship, and that would not really be a problem for either of us, but at the same time, it is not fair to abstain when that is a normal part of marriage. The church even instructs us to submit to each other. I understand that that means within the confines of marriage, and since our marriage is not the real deal, I guess that is the exception to avoiding submission to each other.

But no matter how ones looks at it, I believe that we have the real deal. Even more so than my first marriage, which was not the real deal. Am I making sense?

Did Christ not say that divorce was a sin, and that you cause that person to commit adultery if you divorce her, except for marital unfaithfulness? That is the way I understand it, but I am not a theologian either. But both our of first marriages were ended because of their unfaithfulness in the marriage. But I don’t think that the Catholic church believes in this exception.

Thank you so much Dave. I really appreciate your help, and everyone’s, but honestly I don’t know if I am committing a mortal sin. Probably so. I guess the alternative would be to get an annulment, which I don’t know if I can through. I really don’t, but I know that if I can not receive the Eucharist, I won’t be able to stay in the church. It is just that simple. That is how I survive from week to week.

God bless,
 
lefthand,

You must approach the tribunal to get your marriage situation regulate. The internal forum is not a “solution” to marriage problems, although it does allow a situation in which a couple can return to the practice of the sacraments but, at the same time, the simulation of marriage (specifically the marriage act) is prohibited.

Katherine:

As I said, in the eyes of the Church unless and until the marriage is proven invalid she is married to her first husband. The presumption of validity is always given to marriage.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
Katherine:

As I said, in the eyes of the Church unless and until the marriage is proven invalid she is married to her first husband. The presumption of validity is always given to marriage.

Deacon Ed
Click to expand...
You interchangably use the terms ‘fact of marriage’ and ‘presumption of marriage’. These are two different things. A marriage does not exist until a decree of nullity is issued. You seem to lack an understand of the Catholic theology of marriage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top