Is my time up in the Roman Catholic Church?

[mikeledes]

Okay. So then you are trying to make a point that the Jews and the Muslims both worship the same God as the Christians—is that accurate?

More or less. If we are going to argue that Muslims do not worship God because they reject the Trinity and Divinity of Christ, then the same applies to Jews.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Here’s where i see the confusion… Jews have been set aside by God Almighty they are still HIS chosen nation… They no longer recognise the true God much like any church that slips off into apostasy, they may claim to worship the one true God but the reality is that it is ONLY their claim…

 

[mikeledes]

I’ve already answered that argument. One must read the full context of Paul’s speech.

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.” [Acts 17:29-31; emphasis mine]

Therefore he does make a distinction between the various concepts of God. Why else would he seek to convert them? Why didn’t he just say, “Oh, OK, you believe in a kind of God. All right, off ya go.” He doesn’t. He stays in Athens and preaches to them Christ resurrected. Why? Because Christ resurrected is the Christian God, and the path to salvation. Anything else is incorrect. This is why Paul makes a distinction between these two Gods.

“Hey, you know that ‘unknown God’ you believe in?” he asks them, as a way to open conversation, “Guess what - I come from Him, He has made His presence known, and He commands you all to repent and come onto Him.” Many of the Greeks hearing this “sneered” at Paul or brushed him off (Acts 17:32). If they believed in the same God, why then did they reject God’s message? Because Paul was attacking their concept of what that God was, which was incompatible with the Christian concept of who God is - this means it was incompatible with the true God.

To again quote patristics on this:

“God,” he says, “that made the world” (Acts 17:24). He uttered one word, by which he has subverted all the (doctrines) of the philosophers. For the Epicureans affirm all to be fortuitously formed and (by concourse) of atoms, the Stoics held it to be body and fire (ἐ κπύρωσιν). “The world and all that is therein.” Do you mark the conciseness, and in conciseness, clearness? Mark what were the things that were strange to them: that God made the world! Things which now any of the most ordinary persons know, these the Athenians and the wise men of the Athenians knew not. “Seeing He is Lord of heaven and earth:” for if He made them, it is clear that He is Lord. Observe what he affirms to be the note of Deity— creation. Which attribute the Son also has. [Saint John Chrysostom, *Homily 38 on the Acts of the Apostles

]

Actually, he does not make a distinction betweent he two “Gods”. He explicitly states that the God that they worship without knowing he is now proclaiming to them. Again, the problem I see is that you are confusing worship with the Christian understanding of faith. The mere fact that someone worships God does not mean that there souls are right with God. Moreover, the Jews worshipped the same God as the Christians and yet they killed Stephen and persecuted the early Christians. If they believed in the same God as the Christians, why did they reject God’s message?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Grace,

As others have stated, that priest was simply wrong (perhaps in heresy) for stating the Koran is God’s Word as much as the Bible. Please don’t let his error drive you away from the Bark of Peter.

Can I ask you for the Magisterial document that specifically claims that “Catholics and Muslims worship the same God”?

Also, is the God of the Jews different from the God of Christians?

Blessings,
Marduk

Dear Eucharisted and everyone who tries to make me accept the Catholic teaching about allah.

Firstly, we agree there is only one true creator God and that all people essentially long for Him, yes. But religious language is one that must be taken at face value. In Catholic teaching it does not say we *seek *the same God or *long for *the same God. No, it says we worship the same god as the Muslims. That’s the hazzle.

There is only one God, yes, but have you ever heard of universalism. Universalism is the new age doctrine that says we all worship the same deity and that differences are merely apparent, they are illusions. This is not Christianity!

The oneness of God is one aspect of who he is, but not the only one.

I will put it like this: God is creator and revealer.
Both are important.
Creation may or may not point to God’s existence, but not to WHO He is.

Only through revelation do we know who God is, whom we worship. The revealer is the author of a book for instance. We say basically that God is the author of the Bible and that God revealed Himself in in the person of Christ.
God is Spirit. This spirit is experienced as a person that communicates something to us about Him self.
In the Bible it’s clear that there are other gods/spirits who also can communicate something to people. We even hear that satan tries to ape God and be God, he wants worship.

When we worship our Lord in the Mass or personal prayer we worship Christ and we worship the Revealer of Judeo-Christian Scripture (which is why we can know that Jews also worship The True God - athough they have a limited knowlege of Him). We deliberately and consciously address the Spirit of the Old and New Testament, the one who was in Christ.
The Muslims deliberately and consciously worship the god that authored the Koran, the spirit that came to Muhammad. This spirit - unless you believe it was a manifestation of mental instability only - is someone else than who authored Christian revelation. How do we know? - because he identifies himself differently. He says he has no son, that Christians are cursed, that Muhammad is the true prophet.

This makes out my logical reasoning about Christianity and Islam. You may say I should obey the Church. But I feel it is not in my power to go against logic and reason and what I feel to be very clear in Scripture, namely that any spirit who adds to Scripture is antichrist.

Let us not make concepts and words void of meaning. If we say we all worship the same god, then we also say we worship the god of muslims, then we also say the god of islam is true god and then we should trust his revelation, the Koran, and his messenger Muhammad.

I truly feel that if Islam was a small sect, neither pope nor magisterium would have shown it the respect it has. I feel here is false “unity” that cries out to heaven.
Not only to heaven but also to the rest of our Christian brethren who don’t have to defend some church document. Muslims that become Christians are very clear in saying the two deities are wholly different persons.
Not only they, but so many pious Catholics who truly live a Christian life, respect the Church and study their Bible and catechisms come to the same conclusion as I have.

There is a long step between Justin Martyrs theory of little rays of light in pre-Christian world -views and then to saying that Muslims worship the same God as the Christians and vice versa.
I have met people who stayed seperated from the RCC because of this doctrine alone. Its no little thing.

What has the Light to do with the darkness?

 

[Mickey]

More or less.

Very interesting. I wonder how many other Catholics believe that the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God?

 

[davidv]

Very interesting. I wonder how many other Catholics believe that the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God?

I do.

 

[mikeledes]

Very interesting. I wonder how many other Catholics believe that the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God?

I personally don’t see the problem. The fact that Muslims worship God does not mean that Islam is a true religion or a reflection of the state of a person’s soul. I believe that there is a distinction between worshipping God and being saved. There is also a difference between saying someone worships God and universalism. Universalism teaches that all religions are equal and lead to salvation. I don’t believe that.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I do.

I started a poll.

 

[GraceDK]

I do not subscribe to universalism.

Happy to hear that. Neither do I.
To me it’s all about revelation. That is how we know what god we are dealing with.
If the revelation is true, it comes from the true God (like the Scripture of Jews and Christians and thus these two worship the same Spirit even if the Jews have lesser understanding) if its false, then it comes from a false spirit. The Koran is false… it even curses Christians, denounces Christ as God, and denies the crucifixion. This revelation then must have come from an evil spirit.
Muslims would never say they worship God as He revealed Himself in our authoritative Scriptures. If they did they would have to become Christians. So too… for those catholics who believe in allah who wrote the Koran… they are then muslims. they cannot serve two masters.

Its funny that so many Muslims whose testmononies I read say that they did not worship the true God when they were Muslims.

I took contact to a certain man, Ibrahim, whose very fascinating testimony I read on the internet. He was a very ardent and serious Muslim who became convinced that Christianity was the truth… When I contacted him with my reasoning and explained my thoughts and debates to him he agreed with me. He said clearly that he had indeed not known nor worshipped the true God, but a false god with a false revelation, all the years where he was in the grip of Islam.

Peace,

Ps. I am sad to see that my Catholic brothers would are very reluctant to say the Muslims worship a false god, but have no problem saying it about the Jews even when it was among those Jesus our Lord worshipped the Father.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Actually, he does not make a distinction betweent he two “Gods”. He explicitly states that the God that they worship without knowing he is now proclaiming to them. Again, the problem I see is that you are confusing worship with the Christian understanding of faith. The mere fact that someone worships God does not mean that there souls are right with God.

That’s actually not what I’m arguing, and apologies if I’ve caused some confusion. My argument is in regards to the identity of God, who God truly is, and all this pertaining to how God revealed Himself to us. The Athenians worshiped an unknown God among their many other gods, and Paul declares that he comes from that unknown God and that they should worship Him alone. Which leads me to my next point:

Moreover, the Jews worshipped the same God as the Christians and yet they killed Stephen and persecuted the early Christians. If they believed in the same God as the Christians, why did they reject God’s message?

That’s what I’ve been asking people in this thread. They clearly rejected God’s message and rejected Christ - Christ, remember, is the fullness of God. This is Christian belief. If they reject God, they clearly do not worship Him. Their idea of God is One Person, One Being, but God is in actuality Three Persons in One Being. Their idea of God is not the same idea as the Christian God, therefore you cannot say they worship the same God as Christians. That’s why they killed the apostles - they did not consider the apostles to be worshiping the same God.

“All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.” [John 16:1-3]

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” [John 8:42-44]

The Jews recognized that what the apostles taught were different idea of God that they were used to. They saw the Christian belief in a divine Christ as being a DIFFERENT kind of God - they saw it as a heresy. The Muslims, likewise, see the Trinity as paganism and denounce the Christian idea of God (I posted some Koranic passages earlier in this thread asserting that). The only people in the Abrahamic faiths who put forth universalist arguments that we all worship the same God are some modern Christians, regardless of whether or not their beliefs contradict scripture, patristics, or 2000 years of Church tradition.

To reiterate:

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” [John 14:6]

Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. [Matthew 10:32-33]

Its funny that so many Muslims whose testmononies I read say that they did not worship the true God when they were Muslims.

I took contact to a certain man, Ibrahim, whose very fascinating testimony I read on the internet. He was a very ardent and serious Muslim who became convinced that Christianity was the truth… When I contacted him with my reasoning and explained my thoughts and debates to him he agreed with me. He said clearly that he had indeed not known nor worshipped the true God, but a false god with a false revelation, all the years where he was in the grip of Islam.

Indeed, I find no reason why I should change the message of our King when no one else changes their message. Likewise, I do not consider myself to have believed in the same Christian God during my stint in Islam

Ps. I am sad to see that my Catholic brothers would are very reluctant to say the Muslims worship a false god, but have no problem saying it about the Jews even when it was among those Jesus our Lord worshipped the Father.

Unfortunately, many fall victim to what their “itching ears” (2 Tim 4:3) will want to hear.

 

[mikeledes]

Happy to hear that. Neither do I.
To me it’s all about revelation. That is how we know what god we are dealing with.
If the revelation is true, it comes from the true God (like the Scripture of Jews and Christians and thus these two worship the same Spirit even if the Jews have lesser understanding) if its false, then it comes from a false spirit. The Koran is false… it even curses Christians, denounces Christ as God, and denies the crucifixion. This revelation then must have come from an evil spirit.
Muslims would never say they worship God as He revealed Himself in our authoritative Scriptures. If they did they would have to become Christians. So too… for those catholics who believe in allah who wrote the Koran… they are then muslims. they cannot serve two masters.

Its funny that so many Muslims whose testmononies I read say that they did not worship the true God when they were Muslims.

I took contact to a certain man, Ibrahim, whose very fascinating testimony I read on the internet. He was a very ardent and serious Muslim who became convinced that Christianity was the truth… When I contacted him with my reasoning and explained my thoughts and debates to him he agreed with me. He said clearly that he had indeed not known nor worshipped the true God, but a false god with a false revelation, all the years where he was in the grip of Islam.

Peace,

Ps. I am sad to see that my Catholic brothers would are very reluctant to say the Muslims worship a false god, but have no problem saying it about the Jews even when it was among those Jesus our Lord worshipped the Father.

I don’t believe Jews worship a false God. Muslims identify their God as the same God that revealed Himself to Abraham, Moses, etc. So while Islam is full of doctrinal errors, we acknowledge that they worship the God of Abraham. That does not mean Islam is a true religion.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

That’s actually not what I’m arguing, and apologies if I’ve caused some confusion. My argument is in regards to the identity of God, who God truly is, and all this pertaining to how God revealed Himself to us. The Athenians worshiped an unknown God among their many other gods, and Paul declares that he comes from that unknown God and that they should worship Him alone. Which leads me to my next point:

That’s what I’ve been asking people in this thread. They clearly rejected God’s message and rejected Christ - Christ, remember, is the fullness of God. This is Christian belief. If they reject God, they clearly do not worship Him. Their idea of God is One Person, One Being, but God is in actuality Three Persons in One Being. Their idea of God is not the same idea as the Christian God, therefore you cannot say they worship the same God as Christians. That’s why they killed the apostles - they did not consider the apostles to be worshiping the same God.

“All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.” [John 16:1-3]

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” [John 8:42-44]

The Jews recognized that what the apostles taught were different idea of God that they were used to. They saw the Christian belief in a divine Christ as being a DIFFERENT kind of God - they saw it as a heresy. The Muslims, likewise, see the Trinity as paganism and denounce the Christian idea of God (I posted some Koranic passages earlier in this thread asserting that). The only people in the Abrahamic faiths who put forth universalist arguments that we all worship the same God are some modern Christians, regardless of whether or not their beliefs contradict scripture, patristics, or 2000 years of Church tradition.

To reiterate:

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” [John 14:6]

Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. [Matthew 10:32-33]

I have to repeat this point. To say a non-Christian worships God (Jews and Muslims) does not mean that they are saved or spiritually are on equal footing with Christians. Paul said that the Athenians worshipped the God he was about to reveal to them and even said:

Acts 17:27-28

**27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ **

Paul cites a Greek poet and applies it to God. They did not have a proper understanding of God’s identity, but Paul explicitly states that they worshipped Him.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I have to repeat this point. To say a non-Christian worships God (Jews and Muslims) does not mean that they are saved or spiritually are on equal footing with Christians.

So, if I understand you correctly (and I’m putting this with the context of your exegesis, even though I excluded it from the section I quoted), you are differentiating between salvation and worship?

I think I can understand your point there, and I might agree, I just want to make sure I understand your point of view before I continue.

 

[paul_c]

I don’t think you all understand what Mikeledes was doing here. He wasn’t saying that the Jews weren’t worshiping God, he was merely pointing out the inconsistency of the arguments against Muslims worshiping the same, Abrahamic God. He did it for about 3 pages, fairly effectively, I think.

I also think he was fair in saying that Muslims worship the same God, just not in ways that will allow them to be saved. Recognize that there is some truth in most religions, just not the whole truth that will lead to salvation.

Now to Grace’s original point, the priest would have been correct in saying the Muslims worship the same God. He was clearly wrong in identifying the Koran as scripture. There is only one deposit of Faith and that resides within the Catholic Church. So, knowing that Grace, where would you go?

 

[Black_Knight]

Yes. And they followed a false prophet. I am not going to argue about Islam. I stand with Grace on this issue. And I have no right to accuse anyone of leaning toward universalism, relativism, or syncretism–my apologies if I have offended

No offense taken my friend.

Here is an interesting quote:

There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.
St John of Damascus

Interesting indeed. Where can I find the context of this? I keep links to most of the ECF.

 

[Black_Knight]

That part of Saint John Damascene’s treatise always amused me If he lived in our modern times and had said that, you’d have riots in the streets and embassies being burned down.

No doubt my friend. No doubt.

I’d agree with you guys on that as well.

 

[Black_Knight]

Here’s where i see the confusion… Jews have been set aside by God Almighty they are still HIS chosen nation… They no longer recognise the true God much like any church that slips off into apostasy, they may claim to worship the one true God but the reality is that it is ONLY their claim…

That a pretty messed up and convoluted concept.

It literally sets a different standard for two religions that are not Christians for essentially the very same reasons. That is fairly typical of much of the modern n-C religious thinking here in the U.S., but I can’t buy it because I see a fallacious paradox.

 

[Black_Knight]

I personally don’t see the problem. The fact that Muslims worship God does not mean that Islam is a true religion or a reflection of the state of a person’s soul. I believe that there is a distinction between worshipping God and being saved. There is also a difference between saying someone worships God and universalism. Universalism teaches that all religions are equal and lead to salvation. I don’t believe that.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[GraceDK]

I don’t believe Jews worship a false God. Muslims identify their God as the same God that revealed Himself to Abraham, Moses, etc. So while Islam is full of doctrinal errors, we acknowledge that they worship the God of Abraham. That does not mean Islam is a true religion.

God Bless,
Michael

But Abraham was not a Muslim. It was not the Spirit of the Koran that revealed Himself to Abraham. It was the True God who came to him.
Just because Muhammad knew some names from the old testament does not mean that his god is their God.
Again, to me religion is revelation. We worship and approach - and are approached - by a spirit that reveals something. if we believe this spirit then we worship it. If the revelation is false then the wrong spirit is worshipped.
To me its that simple.

 

[Black_Knight]

Ps. I am sad to see that my Catholic brothers would are very reluctant to say the Muslims worship a false god, but have no problem saying it about the Jews even when it was among those Jesus our Lord worshipped the Father.

I don’t know where you saw that because I have never said such a thing nor have I read a post by a credible faithful Catholic to that effect either.

If the Muslims are indeed the descendants of Abraham then they exist by the very prophecy of God from when the Angel speaks with Hagar and tells her to return to service under Sarah, so then their origins are in the same monotheisitic God of the Jews and in that context the Church is correct in what it says about them, whether either one accepts the Christian God as we know him is actually beside the point of the issue, and it is God’s work to reach them by the Holy Spirit…something I have no doubt at all that He can and will do.

I may be a person “of the book”, as Muslims say, but I am not a person of the Quran.
I am an infidel to them in the same sense that I am a blasphemer to a devout Jew.

I have no problem with that.

Most devout Jews will tell you in a flash that they do not worship the same God we do because they reject the Trinity. Is that not the same reason that most n-Cs reject Islam? (Political and cultural differences aside). If they are both rooted in the line of Abraham, then the Church is correct in the statement in the Catechism, and we can accept it and carry on as faithful Catholics, while the modern American n-Cs (in particular), are caught up in a mix of patriotism and fundamentalist Christianity (which IMO is both sad and dangerous) then they will continue to argue about this just as they continue to argue for errant modern new winds of doctrines of men from some 500 years ago…and to the same basic effect.

The Catholic Church is correct…modern n-Cs are wrong.