Is my time up in the Roman Catholic Church?

[GraceDK]

Dear sisters and brothers.
I’m sorry if I write this in a state of emotion but it has been a long time coming.

Short story, I just came home from mass. It was a lovely morning, I took my bike to church. While there I thought: "It’s going pretty well for father M today (- father M has often said things from the pulpit and in private that made me fall off my chair because he is so liberal).
He was preaching about the Bible. Talking about how wonderful it was to read it, he praised the pentecostals for carrying the Bible with them very often, and basically said: "It’s so wonderful to read the word of God… in the Bible… In the Koran… " Thats where it darkened infront of my eyes. I did not hear the rest. I looked around: people looked like they had not heard anything unusual. They looked dead. I felt my pulse go up, my blood gushing through my head. It was a cross to be there… people next to me didn’t kneel at the consecration … I had to receive Christ so I struggled my way throigh and dizzily went and received Him. Then I ran out of church and now I am here.

Some of you might know me from the non-christian religions section in discussion with Muslims. If anyone is from Denmark you may have seen me in the Catholic newspaper arguing against the bishop, as I theologically and logically argue that the God of the Bible and the allah of the Koran are not the same god, and thus I honestly admit that the council document Nostra Aetate is wrong when it says we worship the same god as the Muslims.
Many Catholics have stated their agreement with me.

If this was merely a problem with some Catholic person’s behaviour I would be sad but not in turmoil. But this is me disagreeing with Church teaching. I can in no way reconcile with this teaching.
I am a radical person. I normally take the consequences of what I believe.
As it is then, this error as I see it, harms my view of the Catholic institution as infallible teacher of divine revelation. My trust diminishes.

I am deeply sad and confused… do I have a future as a Catholic or do I seek to reconcile with the apparent fact that no one church has the full truth?

Please… give me your thoughts, however, only those of you who have actually studied Islam to some extent and knows what the Koran teaches…

:´-( Grace

 

[CoG]

Islam has the same roots from the Old Testament and recognizes the same One True God. You do not seem to realize that although Islam recognizes the same God they have lost many of the attributes of God in their teaching. The same is true for all other Christian religions that are not Catholic. Just as you are about to loose the teaching of the Catholic Church it should be easy for you to see how this can happen.

Pray for wisdom and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eucharisted]

Dear sisters and brothers.
I’m sorry if I write this in a state of emotion but it has been a long time coming.

Short story, I just came home from mass. It was a lovely morning, I took my bike to church. While there I thought: "It’s going pretty well for father M today (- father M has often said things from the pulpit and in private that made me fall off my chair because he is so liberal).
He was preaching about the Bible. Talking about how wonderful it was to read it, he praised the pentecostals for carrying the Bible with them very often, and basically said: "It’s so wonderful to read the word of God… in the Bible… In the Koran… " Thats where it darkened infront of my eyes. I did not hear the rest. I looked around: people looked like they had not heard anything unusual. They looked dead. I felt my pulse go up, my blood gushing through my head. It was a cross to be there… people next to me didn’t kneel at the consecration … I had to receive Christ so I struggled my way throigh and dizzily went and received Him. Then I ran out of church and now I am here.

Some of you might know me from the non-christian religions section in discussion with Muslims. If anyone is from Denmark you may have seen me in the Catholic newspaper arguing against the bishop, as I theologically and logically argue that the God of the Bible and the allah of the Koran are not the same god, and thus I honestly admit that the council document Nostra Aetate is wrong when it says we worship the same god as the Muslims.
Many Catholics have stated their agreement with me.

If this was merely a problem with some Catholic person’s behaviour I would be sad but not in turmoil. But this is me disagreeing with Church teaching. I can in no way reconcile with this teaching.
I am a radical person. I normally take the consequences of what I believe.
As it is then, this error as I see it, harms my view of the Catholic institution as infallible teacher of divine revelation. My trust diminishes.

I am deeply sad and confused… do I have a future as a Catholic or do I seek to reconcile with the apparent fact that no one church has the full truth?

Please… give me your thoughts, however, only those of you who have actually studied Islam to some extent and knows what the Koran teaches…

:´-( Grace

I have read the Qu’ran, hadith, and other Islamic doctrines. There is a website called www.sillyallah.com that shows how you can dialogue with Muslims on Islam.

Here is why Allah is the Islamic understanding of God: There is only one God. Since only one God exists, than those who are monotheist - that is, acknowledge and worship one God - acknowledge and worship the only one God. They might not fully know Him, might even given Him heretical attributes or weird names, but, in as far as they truly know Him and truly worship Him, so far they have the truth regarding Him, and, in that bit of truth, worship Him. It is like with the Jews. They worship God, but do not believe He is Triune. This doesn’t mean they don’t worship God, it just means they don’t fully understand Him. The same goes for Muslims. They worship God, but do not believe He is Triune nor He is Father. This dosen’t mean they don’t worship God, it just means they don’t fully understand Him. But when I talk to Muslims, sometimes I make a distinction between God as He is - “God” - and God as the Muslims know Him - “Allah” - as a way of showing them that the one who gave Mohammad revelations contradicted God’s words in the Bible.

 

[Moneo]

Hello Grace,

I am sorry to hear you’re struggling with things today and that it’s got you blue … I will pray to the Holy Spirit for fortitude in your spiritual struggles.

But you mustn’t let yourself be tempted to abandon the Church because of the failings of her ministers or the apathy of fellow Catholics. Surely you realize that this is a temptation, and that it’s exactly what Satan wants to achieve? Sadness is not one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and anything which robs you of His gift of peace comes from our own evil inclinations, our pride and Satan. Don’t let the waves overwhelm you; keep your eyes set on Him. Hold fast to the Truth that you have been given to know, and keep your heart firmly set on Our Lord.

Presuming that “Fr. M’s” homilies are causing you serious spiritual difficulty here, is there no other parish to which you can go to find solace in the liturgy? But even here I would advise caution: If you find that you are sitting at Mass every time you go with your “orthodoxy filter” set on high, and that you cannot even pray because you are so alert to any deviations in doctrine or rubrics, then you need to beware! There is a very serious danger of the sin of pride here, and I speak from experience.

Back in the days when I was studying theology (I am a layman, not a religious or priest) things were pretty awful at the university and in many nearby churches, with priests who insisted on introducing their rather novel interpretations of Scripture and approaches to liturgy into the masses they offered. It got so that I couldn’t listen to a homily without picking it apart doctrinally, looking for the faults in doctrine. And that was my pride acting up.

I’m not suggesting you have to just tolerate what you are hearing, but perhaps you ought to find another parish, if this is an option. And if it is not (or even if it is), in any case, you are going to have to spend some serious tabernacle time praying to Our Lord to help you with these spiritual struggles. There is no other way. And don’t forget to pray for “Fr. M” and your fellow parishioners either.

I will remember you in my rosary today.

 

[NHInsider]

Grace - you are in a difficult position, but not one unlike those that many of us have faced at one time or another. You find it impossible to believe something that the Church teaches. For some, it is about the priesthood (celibacy, or women). For others, teachings about Mary are implausible (Immaculate Conception, Assumption). Still others struggle with moral teachings, or papal infallibility. For you, it is that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same God.

At the same time, you cling to the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, and that is something you can only experience here (and in the Orthodox church). (“Lord, where shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life.”)

For each of us in this situation the choice is, do we submit in obedience to what we cannot accept intellectually (“Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief”)? Or do we conclude that our intellect is more infallible than the Magesterium, and leave the Real Presence behind?

I hope that you will stay, and I pray that the Lord will honor your love for Him by granting you peace of mind and heart.

I will also observe that I think the priest went beyond the pale by referring to the Koran as the Word of God - that is not church teaching. So I think I’d parish-shop, if I were you.

 

[WesleyF]

"It’s so wonderful to read the word of God… in the Bible… In the Koran… "

Unfortunately, that priest has got it wrong. Catholic teaching doesn’t say that the Quran contains the word of God.

I theologically and logically argue that the God of the Bible and the allah of the Koran are not the same god, and thus I honestly admit that the council document Nostra Aetate is wrong when it says we worship the same god as the Muslims.

"So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, `To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (Acts 17:22-23)

Muslims worship an unknown God. They don’t know much about him. They have some distorted notions about him. But they still acknowledge him as the one God who created the universe. Even Jews worship an unknown God to some extent, because they are not aware of his trinitarian nature. This doesn’t mean that the Jews are worshipping a different God. Even Cornelius (Acts 10:1-2) was worshipping an “unknown God”. He might have had quite a few misconceptions about him. But it still doesn’t mean that he was not worshipping the same God as our God.

If this was merely a problem with some Catholic person’s behaviour I would be sad but not in turmoil. But this is me disagreeing with Church teaching. I can in no way reconcile with this teaching.

I think St. Thomas Aquianas, brilliant as he was, should inspire you.

He said, “If in this world there be any knowledge of this sacrament stronger than that of faith, I wish now to use it in affirming that I firmly believe and know as certain that Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, Son of God and Son of the Virgin Mary, is in this Sacrament . . . I receive Thee, the price of my redemption, for Whose love I have watched, studied, and laboured. Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee: if anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous concerning this sacrament or other matters, I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”

I am deeply sad and confused… do I have a future as a Catholic or do I seek to reconcile with the apparent fact that no one church has the full truth?

This simply cannot be true, because you know that Christ promised to build his church (Matthew 16:18). So this is merely a matter of properly understanding church teaching and then submitting to it.

 

[JustaServant]

So I think I’d parish-shop, if I were you.

I would agree.

 

[Shin]

Pray with Faith and Hope. . .

There is no place else to be than the Catholic Church. This is clearly revealed by God. Too clearly.

There is no other Christian reality.

He is undeniable in His Church and in His saints.

It is a wonderful place. But this can be a place that is difficult to adjust to, and not all one would expect coming from the outside in. It takes time to discover both the limitations and excellences, and wide ranging views and possibilities within – how far people can go, and how far people can go off.

Language is a funny thing, and the current Popes have adopted a new language that is certain. Language is always a translation from the concepts we hold within. And so often imprecise therefor.

Trust that you can find some way to reconcile all these difficulties and pray to God for Him to show you how, with openness and trust, in His good time.

In obedience to the Church, and seeking the true mind of God in the Church you will find what your heart needs.

You can pray for Him to hurry and show you too as long as you accept His will completely whatever it is.

There is more I could say but I think this is a good beginning to it.

Peace.

 

[Eucharisted]

I have read the Qu’ran, hadith, and other Islamic writings.

Fixed

 

[1ke]

Grace,

Start by focusing on the fact that the Church is indeed infallible in faith and morals. Therefore, she can only teach the Truth.

The Church speaks truly when she says that the God that the Muslims call “Allah” is the God of Jews and Christians, because there is only one God. They are mistaken about God, they reject the Trinity, etc, but they acknowledge that there is One God and he is over all that is. There’s only one God and they acknolwedge Him. Then they diverge into wrong teaching about him. Mohammed came in contact with Christians and Jews and that is where he learned about the one, true God.

The Church DOES NOT acknowledge the Koran as Scripture. The Church DOES NOT teach that the Islamic religion is true, equal to, or “a path” to salvation.

The Church teaches clearly that there is only ONE path-- the Catholic Church. Dominus Jesus makes that clear. Ut Unum Sint makes that clear. The Catechims makes this clear.

The Church doesn’t teach anything in error because she simply can’t. Perhaps you are seeing things in church documents that are not there in an effort to prove that you are right and the Church is wrong.

Your priest was clearly wrong in referring to the Koran as Scripture. It is not. There are true things in the Koran – even a broken clock is right twice a day-- and there are false things in the Koran. And, the Church has never said otherwise.

As Peter said, “to whom shall we go.”

You know that Christ founded the Catholic Church, and you know he commands that we remain in her. Even when the Church was full of Arian heretics in the 3rd century, those who knew the truth fought on for hundreds of years. The solution isn’t to leave-- there is no other to go to. The solution is to continue to learn, study, speak out when necessary, and be obedient to Christ.

 

[Norseman82]

Although I am not an expert on Islamic teachings (although I did have a very devout Muslim as a roommate 20+ years ago), I can offer this:

One time I was in a debate with a protestant and he said that the reason that Muslims do not adore the God of Abraham is because they reject Jesus. However, the same can be said about Jewish people, so I would ask myself whether or not Jewish people worship the God of Abraham as well.

Another thing: no matter what a renegade priest may say in his homilies, no matter how much a Church teaching may make us scratch our heads, there is one thing that will carry us through the most boring or irreverent masses - the consecration of the Eucharist. That is one thing the Catholic Church has that others do not.

 

[VociMike]

I theologically and logically argue that the God of the Bible and the allah of the Koran are not the same god, and thus I honestly admit that the council document Nostra Aetate is wrong when it says we worship the same god as the Muslims.

What does that underlined phrase even mean? Does it mean that there is more than one God, and that Muslims worship one of these other Gods?

Until you can state exactly what you mean by your phrase, we can’t even discuss the issue with you.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

GraceDK, I understand what you are going through, however, I would fight hard against this temptation. Do not quickly jump to the assumption that no church has the truth because those nearby you are wrought with liberalism, universalism or otherwise.

I went through the same temptation in my youth and regrettably turned away from Christ. PM me if you have any other questions regarding this, I would love to help you more privately.

Also I agree wholeheartedly with her opinion regarding the Trinitarian Christian God and Allah.

"So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, `To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (Acts 17:22-23)

Muslims worship an unknown God. They don’t know much about him. They have some distorted notions about him. But they still acknowledge him as the one God who created the universe. Even Jews worship an unknown God to some extent, because they are not aware of his trinitarian nature. This doesn’t mean that the Jews are worshipping a different God. Even Cornelius (Acts 10:1-2) was worshipping an “unknown God”. He might have had quite a few misconceptions about him. But it still doesn’t mean that he was not worshipping the same God as our God.

I’m afraid you’re picking and choosing Paul’s teachings

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [Romans 1:18-21; emphasis mine]

Muslims deny the divinity of Christ. Christ represents the fulness of God. Therefore, Muslims inadvertently deny God. And therefore, GraceDK has every right to be ashamed when a priest declares that Muslims worship the same God. Even Christ would agree with her shock:

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 10:33]

Not to mention that to Muslims…Christians do not worship the same God as Allah Here are some Koranic passages to meditate on:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [S. 5:73]

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [S. 4:171]

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. [S. 5:72]

 

[WesleyF]

I’m afraid you’re picking and choosing Paul’s teachings

Please explain how? Paul clearly said, “What therefore you worship as unknown, this (same unknown God) I proclaim to you”

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [Romans 1:18-21; emphasis mine]

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.” (Romans 1:18-21)

Now whom is this passage referring to? Read further…

“Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since** they did not see fit to acknowledge God**,** God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct**. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, **foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. ** Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.” (Romans 1:22-32)

Please don’t quote scripture out of its context brother.

Muslims deny the divinity of Christ. Christ represents the fulness of God. Therefore, Muslims inadvertently deny God.

So what? Jews also deny the divinity of Christ. So you claim that Jews who worship God don’t worship the same God that we worship? Is not God going to restore the Jews back to Israel? In that case you have to admit that those who deny God are being restored by God to Israel.

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 10:33]

How can they deny someone whom they don’t know?

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [S. 5:73]

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [S. 4:171]

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. [S. 5:72]

All these are just false ideas about the One God whom they worship. They worship the One God of Abraham. Or do you suggest that Abraham did not worship the same God as we do just because he didn’t know about his trinitarian nature?

 

[Answersplease]

Dear sisters and brothers.
I’m sorry if I write this in a state of emotion but it has been a long time coming.

Short story, I just came home from mass. It was a lovely morning, I took my bike to church. While there I thought: "It’s going pretty well for father M today (- father M has often said things from the pulpit and in private that made me fall off my chair because he is so liberal).
He was preaching about the Bible. Talking about how wonderful it was to read it, he praised the pentecostals for carrying the Bible with them very often, and basically said: "It’s so wonderful to read the word of God… in the Bible… In the Koran… " Thats where it darkened infront of my eyes. I did not hear the rest. I looked around: people looked like they had not heard anything unusual. They looked dead. I felt my pulse go up, my blood gushing through my head. It was a cross to be there… people next to me didn’t kneel at the consecration … I had to receive Christ so I struggled my way throigh and dizzily went and received Him. Then I ran out of church and now I am here.

Some of you might know me from the non-christian religions section in discussion with Muslims. If anyone is from Denmark you may have seen me in the Catholic newspaper arguing against the bishop, as I theologically and logically argue that the God of the Bible and the allah of the Koran are not the same god, and thus I honestly admit that the council document Nostra Aetate is wrong when it says we worship the same god as the Muslims.
Many Catholics have stated their agreement with me.

If this was merely a problem with some Catholic person’s behaviour I would be sad but not in turmoil. But this is me disagreeing with Church teaching. I can in no way reconcile with this teaching.
I am a radical person. I normally take the consequences of what I believe.
As it is then, this error as I see it, harms my view of the Catholic institution as infallible teacher of divine revelation. My trust diminishes.

I am deeply sad and confused… do I have a future as a Catholic or do I seek to reconcile with the apparent fact that no one church has the full truth?

Please… give me your thoughts, however, only those of you who have actually studied Islam to some extent and knows what the Koran teaches…

:´-( Grace

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=475

 

[CentralFLJames]

The priest who spoke in God’s church that the Koran is God’s Word spoke heresy. By his standards each of us here in talking about God and Christianity would be in each post speaking “God’s Word”. Sure, there are elements of truth - but its not the complete truth if its not all together in one cohesive teaching. I think the priest has a semantic problem and is using his own idea’s about just what “God’s Word” is. Reading the daily gospel is technically “God’s word” but its not all of it. And his Homily is elaborating on God’s Word but its not all of it. The liberal mind tends to integrate and simply concepts. It means well but tends to butcher orthodoxy. A verse in the Koran that can be traced to the OT or the NT is in fact “God’s Word” but its not all of it. So he over generalized.

No - your time is not up in the Catholic Church and your purpose is to be a witness to those capitulating Catholics who are teaching heresy and to get them to change their ways. You have a huge cross to carry but an important role - keep the faith.

Anyone who has read the Koran and the various teachings, traditions and disciplines and knows the history can easily see that the Koran is a pure fabrication of Mohammad built upon elements of the Jewish OT writings as well as some spurious Christian writings (which some verses are traced to specifically known fake Christian texts) co-mingled with personal stories and Arabic mythology. Mohammad was an innovator and was trying to sell a new religion made from a conflated fusion of the popular religious beliefs of people he encountered in and around Arabia. He was a clever opportunist and saw how fast Christianity took off and knew the polytheistic pagan systems without any structure or orthodoxy was uncontrollable and therefor an unsuitable system for hijacking for his own self-serving purposes. He did not want to re-invent the wheel fully from scratch but wanted to leverage existing beliefs to make it easy to convert people to “his religion”. So he put in elements of the most popular ones he encountered as a trader knowing that he could cross-convert many to his system if he added the proper motives (treasure, sex and power in the here-and-now AND also in the next – ‘having one’s baklava and eating it too’).

His religion was a facade that was constructed with one intent - to empower himself with a means of recruiting members to what at is core is nothing more profound than a system of morally sanctioned marauding, pirating and booty sharing and the means to control and order marauders through a faux moral-code. He was smart enough to know that there is no honor among common thieves and cut-throats and knew if he was to stay in control for the long haul he had to form his thiefdom around religious principals and a moral-code. This was no different than what all primitive pirates have always done - develop a pirate’s code for sharing loot and settling internal conflicts.

What Mohammad never foresaw nor originally cared about was that the elements of divine truth he imported from the Jewish and Christian texts would “run away” on him and take on its own life. His covey of marauders and thieves as they profited by Muhammad’s religion really started to believe more devotedly than he ever hoped. People would die for Allah and therefor too the man who brought promises of Allah’s eternal rewards of 72 virgins (a translation error - really 72 raisins ) and the paradisiacal bliss of orgies, feasts and every sensual delight imaginable. Then Mohammad started to believe he was really God’s prophet and he epileptic fits were not really demonic possession as he (rightly) feared but were tests sent by God to strengthen his resolve to overcome Satan’s jealousy that he would attain a higher glory in heaven than even Moses did.

To tie it all together let me just say that Islam is on a natural evolutionary path due to the positive elements of (hijacked) truth that are in it. In that sense, because it is long-lingering it is not too unlike Protestantism’s ability to “linger” – some can be saved by recognition of the One God and by conforming to proper moral codes which come from the Judaic Law. That is to say there are “some elements” of sanctification in those who have an inward “baptism of desire” to love God and to walk uprightly (essentially ignoring the more violent and debased teachings of Islam - i.e. being “poorly catechised” Muslims ). Islam, like all heretical beliefs will eventually be put down since there is only one truth. But I do believe that God can and will use Islam as a means to springboard many Muslims to convert to Christianity (the Coptics of all sects seem to be doing a remarkable job of winning over converts in the last 10 years or so – 6 million per year). A “compelled by the sword faith” can never prevail and will eventually be marginalized or evolved and converted.

Interview with Father Zakaria Botros, ‘Radical Islam’s Bane’
Islam’s ‘Public Enemy #1’ Coptic priest Zakaria Botros fights fire with fire.
Muslim Converts To Christianity In Egypt-A First?

Never forget that God is in control and there is not one single thing that the most evil or confused person on the planet can do to change a single aspect os God’s Divine Providence to prevent it from reaching God’s end-objective. Being mortal we all just want to see things progress toward what what we imagine things should be on our own time-schedule. Again - keep the faith - the Church has suffered and survived worse things than these weak and capitulating priests.

James

 

[GraceDK]

Dear Eucharisted and everyone who tries to make me accept the Catholic teaching about allah.

Firstly, we agree there is only one true creator God and that all people essentially long for Him, yes. But religious language is one that must be taken at face value. In Catholic teaching it does not say we *seek *the same God or *long for *the same God. No, it says we worship the same god as the Muslims. That’s the hazzle.

There is only one God, yes, but have you ever heard of universalism. Universalism is the new age doctrine that says we all worship the same deity and that differences are merely apparent, they are illusions. This is not Christianity!

The oneness of God is one aspect of who he is, but not the only one.

I will put it like this: God is creator and revealer.
Both are important.
Creation may or may not point to God’s existence, but not to WHO He is.

Only through revelation do we know who God is, whom we worship. The revealer is the author of a book for instance. We say basically that God is the author of the Bible and that God revealed Himself in in the person of Christ.
God is Spirit. This spirit is experienced as a person that communicates something to us about Him self.
In the Bible it’s clear that there are other gods/spirits who also can communicate something to people. We even hear that satan tries to ape God and be God, he wants worship.

When we worship our Lord in the Mass or personal prayer we worship Christ and we worship the Revealer of Judeo-Christian Scripture (which is why we can know that Jews also worship The True God - athough they have a limited knowlege of Him). We deliberately and consciously address the Spirit of the Old and New Testament, the one who was in Christ.
The Muslims deliberately and consciously worship the god that authored the Koran, the spirit that came to Muhammad. This spirit - unless you believe it was a manifestation of mental instability only - is someone else than who authored Christian revelation. How do we know? - because he identifies himself differently. He says he has no son, that Christians are cursed, that Muhammad is the true prophet.

This makes out my logical reasoning about Christianity and Islam. You may say I should obey the Church. But I feel it is not in my power to go against logic and reason and what I feel to be very clear in Scripture, namely that any spirit who adds to Scripture is antichrist.

Let us not make concepts and words void of meaning. If we say we all worship the same god, then we also say we worship the god of muslims, then we also say the god of islam is true god and then we should trust his revelation, the Koran, and his messenger Muhammad.

I truly feel that if Islam was a small sect, neither pope nor magisterium would have shown it the respect it has. I feel here is false “unity” that cries out to heaven.
Not only to heaven but also to the rest of our Christian brethren who don’t have to defend some church document. Muslims that become Christians are very clear in saying the two deities are wholly different persons.
Not only they, but so many pious Catholics who truly live a Christian life, respect the Church and study their Bible and catechisms come to the same conclusion as I have.

There is a long step between Justin Martyrs theory of little rays of light in pre-Christian world -views and then to saying that Muslims worship the same God as the Christians and vice versa.
I have met people who stayed seperated from the RCC because of this doctrine alone. Its no little thing.

What has the Light to do with the darkness?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Please explain how? Paul clearly said, “What therefore you worship as unknown, this (same unknown God) I proclaim to you”

But your whole point is contradicted with the fact that Paul sought to convert them to Christ. If he had no problem with their belief he would have let them go, but he was merely using the example of the statue to talk about who that “unknown God” is, and that they should worship Him now. Later on in the section you quoted Paul says this:

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” [Acts 17:30-31]

Incidentally, there is an excellent part in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho where he meets a Jew who says the exact same thing you said: the Greeks believe in the same God as the Jews. Justin, himself a Greek convert, turns that argument on its head and shows, in fact, the Greeks have only a vague concept of God, and do not believe in the true God. It was never an argument of the Church Fathers that universalism or any other version of it was valid.

Now whom is this passage referring to? Read further…

Actually sounds fairly accurate to Islam if you study their rules for morality and their concept of Paradise

So what? Jews also deny the divinity of Christ. So you claim that Jews who worship God don’t worship the same God that we worship? Is not God going to restore the Jews back to Israel? In that case you have to admit that those who deny God are being restored by God to Israel.

I’ve already spoken on this many times before on this forum: yes, the Jews don’t worship the same God we worship because they deny Christ who is God.

The Trinity is not a buffet - you can’t say, “Well I’ll pick the Father but not the Son and Holy Spirit.” Each Person within the Trinity represents the fullness of God, and They are united in Three. To deny one is to deny all. This isn’t something you can just say “so what” to, when Christ says He is the only way to the Father (John 14:6) and, as I quoted before, He will reject those who reject Him (Matthew 10:33).

I don’t know what you refer to in the restoration of Israel, unless you mean Revelation. Just remember that the Jews who see Christ will believe in Him…in other words, they’ll convert to Trinitarian thinking.

How can they deny someone whom they don’t know?

They know Jesus. Islam believes in Jesus. Many have been addressed by Christians or have heard Christian belief, and reject it. They reject the divinity of Christ, whom they do know. The Koran has many references to Jesus, so I find it a tad bit confusing as to how they don’t know someone that’s in their religion, including their Koran.

All these are just false ideas about the One God whom they worship.

These are false ideas they staunchly believe in. Arius, Nestorius, and many other heretics believed in the Abrahamic God and had false ideas about them, nevertheless they were condemned. No one ever tried to shrug it off with, “Well, they believe in Abraham so there.”

They worship the One God of Abraham. Or do you suggest that Abraham did not worship the same God as we do just because he didn’t know about his trinitarian nature?

No, they worship the One God of Abraham that Mohammad taught them falsely, in the same manner that Mormons believe in a false concept of God that Joseph Smith taught them. As GraceDK pointed out, this “God” of Muslims was the one who delivered the Koran to Mohammad through an “angel,” a gospel that contradicts what the apostles taught. Paul warned about such “angels of light.”

Also, to argue that Abraham didn’t worship the same God is, ironically, the same argument Muslims use to try to critique Christianity The Trinity was not revealed yet at the time, therefore it is irrelevant to Abraham’s time. Nevertheless, the Trinitarian God is the same God who spoke to Abraham, who helped the prophets, and brought about the new covenant. Yes, the new covenant. The one specifically said by God to not be the same one given to the Jews in the desert (Jer 31:31-34). Christ is the Mediator of this new covenant between God and mankind (1 Tim 2:5; Heb 12:24). Only through Him is salvation reached. Mere lip service does nothing. This is something attested both in scripture and by the Church Fathers.

The fact is that Mohammad taught a heresy, one in line with Nestorianism, Manichaeanism, and Ebionism, and their beliefs were condemned by those Church Fathers who knew it (such as Saint John Damascene). Therefore, we cannot sincerely believe they worship the same God and shrug it off at that.

 

[ricko]

Trust the teachings of the Catholic Church, they are from the Holy Spirit. If you have trouble understanding or believing in Her teachings, does that make the Church wrong? Certainly not. Stating that we worship the same God does not make the religion of Islam ok.

I’ve always wondered why some Catholics identify themselves as “Christian Catholic” It makes me think that they don’t realize what they are saying or don’t know what being a Catholic really means. All Catholics ARE Christians, Catholics are the ORIGINAL Christians. You can’t be a Catholic and not be a Christian. So when you say I’m a Christian Catholic, you’re really saying “I’m a Christian Christian”

 

[GraceDK]

I’ve always wondered why some Catholics identify themselves as “Christian Catholic” It makes me think that they don’t realize what they are saying or don’t know what being a Catholic really means. All Catholics ARE Christians, Catholics are the ORIGINAL Christians. You can’t be a Catholic and not be a Christian. So when you say I’m a Christian Catholic, you’re really saying “I’m a Christian Christian”

What I wrote, I wrote for the sake of my brothers ans sisters here.
The word Christian is much more dear to me that the word Catholic, or for that matter: Orthodox, Evangelical, Messianic. Protestant, although all these are wonderful to me provided there is a heart inside of the person that beats for Jesus.
If I write Christian here, it would be difficult immediately to know in what tradition I live. Not all Christians are Catholics, as you know.
Futhermore I wished to protest the misconception of some people who don’t realise that Catholicism is Christianity. By writing I am a Christian Catholic I make it clear that this is not a contradiction.

Due to our divisions in the Body of Christ, we have brought all these troubles on our selves. There is always some one ready to accuse us.