is NFP a sin?

[The_Bucket]

So no, you don’t have to zero down on the days that dancing would produce kiddos just because you don’t have unselfish reasons to postpone, but you can’t use NFP to avoid without having serious/just/grave/unselfish reasons to do so.

Right, and it always is important to keep in mind that the Church leaves it entirely up to the couple. There are no mandates about what is a just reason. It’s easy to outline examples of clear-cut “yes” and “no” cases though. So yes, it’s fine when there are medical and severe financial issues. No, it’s wrong when you’re avoiding simply to accumulate wealth.

But what about cases where someone is in their late 30s or early 40s and just feel like they are “done” with having kids? That it’s just not what they want and they think God has something else for them do to.

I’d say that calls for prayerful reflection and discernment of God’s will. In some cases I imagine the reply will be “yes, you are done” and other couples will hear that God has different plans for them. That’s why there is no one-size-fits-all proscription from the Church about what constitutes “just reasons.”

 

[Debora123]

I think if people stop seeing NFP as an alternative to ABC, to have the control of not having kids when they don’t want to have them…

I’d like to add that just because someone is using some form of ABC instead of NFP to avoid doesn’t automatically mean they are avoiding children just because they don’t want to have them.

The reason a couple decides to avoid/postpone children can be just as legitimate while using condoms (for example) as they are while using NFP.

I’m sure plenty of our fellow protestant sisters and brothers are well meaning folks who are trying to do what is best for their families, and not necessarily just avoiding because they don’t feel like having another kid.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I’d like to add that just because someone is using some form of ABC instead of NFP to avoid doesn’t automatically mean they are avoiding children just because they don’t want to have them.

The reason a couple decides to avoid/postpone children can be just as legitimate while using condoms (for example) as they are while using NFP.

I’m sure plenty of our fellow protestant sisters and brothers are well meaning folks who are trying to do what is best for their families, and not necessarily just avoiding because they don’t feel like having another kid.

Yes, I agree, some may have much more serious reasons to avoid than many NFP’rs, but also many of our Protestant brothers and sisters may not even be aware of our duty to transmit life and see it like something that we can decide whether or not we want to do it, regardless of the reasoning. Even among Catholics there are people that don’t understand this.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Right, and it always is important to keep in mind that the Church leaves it entirely up to the couple. There are no mandates about what is a just reason.

I guess it depends on what you mean by leaving it entirely to the couple… The couple does have to form their conscience correctly and does have to have a spirit of generosity and prudence when prayerfully discerning the reasons… it is more of a discernment than a decision that is entirely up to the couple… It is up to the couple to try to figure out what God wants of them.

But what about cases where someone is in their late 30s or early 40s and just feel like they are “done” with having kids? That it’s just not what they want and they think God has something else for them do to.

I’d say that calls for prayerful reflection and discernment of God’s will. In some cases I imagine the reply will be “yes, you are done” and other couples will hear that God has different plans for them. That’s why there is no one-size-fits-all proscription from the Church about what constitutes “just reasons.”

The prayerful discernment would let them know whether their other plans are just reasons to avoid. Just reasons to avoid are always needed in order to avoid, every month, every year. Some just reasons may be persistent throughout all of the years of fertility (e.g. serious health issues that are not going away), but other reasons do require periodic evaluation.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

So should couples using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality,” whatever that means to you, be trying to conceive instead?

It just so happens that the only time I used NFP (though I didn’t know it was called that at the time) was for that very purpose.

Are people allowed to not have sex during peak fertility, or are they obligated to have sex at that time unless there is a serious reason to avoid?

Of course not. There is no obligation to have sex ever, provided both parties agree.

NFP is not contraception, so how can it be used as though it were? And if couples already have a “contraceptive mentality” - why aren’t they just using contraception? It’s a lot easier and often more effective.

It’s simply a matter of what terms you wish to use. Using NFP for avoiding children with no just reason is illicit.

As far as “contraception” being more effective, it depends who you ask. A plethora of people on this forum think that Kryptonite repelling Superman pales in comparison to NFP repelling pregnancy.

 

[JackieMom]

It just so happens that the only time I used NFP (though I didn’t know it was called that at the time) was for that very purpose.

Of course not. There is no obligation to have sex ever, provided both parties agree.

It’s simply a matter of what terms you wish to use. Using NFP for avoiding children with no just reason is illicit.

As far as “contraception” being more effective, it depends who you ask. A plethora of people on this forum think that Kryptonite repelling Superman pales in comparison to NFP repelling pregnancy.

I have never heard anyone suggest that NFP offers that amount of protection.

And what is a “just” reason for avoiding children? Do people who have no “just” reason really make the effort and sacrifice to use NFP instead of condoms or a vasectomy? I do not think so. The hassle that NFP entails all but guarantees that people only undertake it with a legitimate reasonfor doing so.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Do people who have no “just” reason really make the effort and sacrifice to use NFP instead of condoms or a vasectomy? I do not think so. The hassle that NFP entails all but guarantees that people only undertake it with a legitimate reasonfor doing so.

I don’t get why people find it so difficult to believe that it can happen. Humans are capable of doing sacrifices for the wrong reasons… I know I am! Someone close to me at one point knew about NFP, and was planning on using it if they got married, but did not know they had to have just/serious/unselfish reasons to use it. They figured it was just the Catholic way of birth control.
The Church doesn’t really say if you are using NFP to avoid then you automatically have a good reason… instead it tells us we have the duty to evaluate our reasons:

It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood.

I think we should just stick to that… forming our consciences and prayerfully discerning if our reasons are good enough.

 

[maryjk]

I don’t get why people find it so difficult to believe that it can happen. Humans are capable of doing sacrifices for the wrong reasons… I know I am! Someone close to me at one point knew about NFP, and was planning on using it if they got married, but did not know they had to have just/serious/unselfish reasons to use it. They figured it was just the Catholic way of birth control.
The Church doesn’t really say if you are using NFP to avoid then you automatically have a good reason… instead it tells us we have the duty to evaluate our reasons:

There is a big difference between “planning on using it” and actually using it.

Actually using it takes time, energy and self control. So, yes, couples COULD use it for selfish reasons. But for how long? A month? Maybe two? Would they make it through the classes? Or the reading?

NFP is self limiting. I couldn’t imagine using it long term, if I didn’t have to.

 

[JackieMom]

I don’t get why people find it so difficult to believe that it can happen. Humans are capable of doing sacrifices for the wrong reasons… I know I am! Someone close to me at one point knew about NFP, and was planning on using it if they got married, but did not know they had to have just/serious/unselfish reasons to use it. They figured it was just the Catholic way of birth control.
The Church doesn’t really say if you are using NFP to avoid then you automatically have a good reason… instead it tells us we have the duty to evaluate our reasons:

Again, does anyone go through the hassle of NFP because they want to bid on Michael Jackson’s sequined glove at the next estate auction and are afraid a pregnancy might make that impossible? I can’t think of an unjust reason anyone would go through the trouble of NFP. People who care enough to use NFP (and even among Catholics, the number of couples who do are desperately low), they probably aren’t using it for outrageous reasons.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Again, does anyone go through the hassle of NFP because they want to bid on Michael Jackson’s sequined glove at the next estate auction and are afraid a pregnancy might make that impossible? I can’t think of an unjust reason anyone would go through the trouble of NFP. People who care enough to use NFP (and even among Catholics, the number of couples who do are desperately low), they probably aren’t using it for outrageous reasons.

And I would add, if a couple preferred to not have intimacy because they had to go get a Michael Jackson glove, they probably have very odd priorities.:whacky:

I can see where NFP could be used selfishly in marriages when it is done unilaterally, without consent or full will of both spouses.

Remember in Gone With the Wind, when Scarlet banished Rhett from the bedroom, because she did not want to have anymore children? Her reasoning was that her waist could get too large. Her desire was selfish…and she rejected her husband, and any further kids.

Melanie, on the other hand was told to not have anymore children because it could be fatal. She accepted another baby. She loved Ashley, and I assume she thought that having marital relations was more important.

In real life, I think Catholics who practice NFP through obedience to the Church are trying very hard to be obedient. I’m not sure there are many Scarlets.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I have never heard anyone suggest that NFP offers that amount of protection.

It’s not anecdotal; it’s all over this forum. Simply do a search regarding the effectiveness of NFP on this forum, and read the responses.

And what is a “just” reason for avoiding children? Do people who have no “just” reason really make the effort and sacrifice to use NFP instead of condoms or a vasectomy? I do not think so. The hassle that NFP entails all but guarantees that people only undertake it with a legitimate reasonfor doing so.

Who knows what just reasons are? There are guidelines, but ultimately it is the decision of the couple, with the possible guidance of their spiritual advisor.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

There is a big difference between “planning on using it” and actually using it.

Actually using it takes time, energy and self control. So, yes, couples COULD use it for selfish reasons. But for how long? A month? Maybe two? Would they make it through the classes? Or the reading?

NFP is self limiting. I couldn’t imagine using it long term, if I didn’t have to.

So, in your opinion, the sexual realm is the only place people cannot make sacrifices for an extended period for the wrong reasons?

In the world out there people do sacrifices for the wrong reasons… do you guys agree with me on that, or do you feel that anyone that does any sacrifice for an extended period of time inherently has a good moral reason to do so?

Also, I disagree with the idea that the difficulty of using it is directly related to the gravity of the problem. Using NFP is easier for some people than others. A person with a regular cycle and easy to read symptoms may find it a lot easier than a woman with confusing symptoms and irregular cycles. It doesn’t mean that the one struggling the most has less serious reasons that the one who finds it easier. Also, there are people with higher and lower libidos… that can have an effect on how easy it may or may not be to avoid children, regardless of the reasons they have to avoid.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Again, does anyone go through the hassle of NFP because they want to bid on Michael Jackson’s sequined glove at the next estate auction and are afraid a pregnancy might make that impossible? I can’t think of an unjust reason anyone would go through the trouble of NFP. People who care enough to use NFP (and even among Catholics, the number of couples who do are desperately low), they probably aren’t using it for outrageous reasons.

Interestingly enough, there are plenty of Catholics that have no idea that a just reason is necessary to use NFP. There have been plenty of Catholics on this forum and elsewhere that just say “huh?” when I mention that using NFP for avoiding children requires just reason.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Interestingly enough, there are plenty of Catholics that have no idea that a just reason is necessary to use NFP. There have been plenty of Catholics on this forum and elsewhere that just say “huh?” when I mention that using NFP for avoiding children requires just reason.

Growing up a woman we knew that worked in a Catholic workplace told my mom in front of me that she had been using the rhythm method (a poorly designed form of periodic continence) for many years and it had worked perfectly. (That was probably the first time I heard of NFP). She had always wanted only one child, and had only one child until the rhythm method failed her and she got pregnant again (and was going to have to go through the whole newborn stage etc again). She said she had been a good Catholic using a natural method, but after the second pregnancy she got her tubes tied because she didn’t want to have to deal with any more pregnancies and didn’t trust the natural way anymore.
Maybe she was aware that she had to have just reasons, maybe there were other reasons aside from always having wanted just one child, that she didn’t tell my mom, and her attitude towards other children was just to cover up. Maybe she knew that the fact that she was willing to do the sacrifice all those years meant that she has serious reasons to only want one child.
That doesn’t mean there aren’t other people out there that may be in similar situations that may not be aware that there is more to it than wanting to limit your family.

 

[JackieMom]

Interestingly enough, there are plenty of Catholics that have no idea that a just reason is necessary to use NFP. There have been plenty of Catholics on this forum and elsewhere that just say “huh?” when I mention that using NFP for avoiding children requires just reason.

Probably because most couples, who decide together to use NFP to avoid pregnancy, can’t imagine a couple doing so for flippant reasons. NFP is not unusually hard for me, but I’ve had a surprise pregnancy while using it, and it requires a large amount of abstinence, which is tougher on my husband than it is on me. It’s not fun. Who would do it if it weren’t important?

The reality is that the number of Catholics who use NFP to delay or avoid pregnancies is very, very low as compared to the number who use ABC and think the Church’s teaching is arcane and silly. It’s not as though parishes are filled with couples utilizing NFP so that they can buy Maseratisand want to avoid stretch marks. They are filled with couples using IUDs and who have been sterilized and don’t have a shred of guilt about it. THOSE are the people unjustly avoiding pregnancies.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Probably because most couples, who decide together to use NFP to avoid pregnancy, can’t imagine a couple doing so for flippant reasons. NFP is not unusually hard for me, but I’ve had a surprise pregnancy while using it, and it requires a large amount of abstinence, which is tougher on my husband than it is on me. It’s not fun. Who would do it if it weren’t important?

The reality is that the number of Catholics who use NFP to delay or avoid pregnancies is very, very low as compared to the number who use ABC and think the Church’s teaching is arcane and silly. It’s not as though parishes are filled with couples utilizing NFP so that they can buy Maseratisand want to avoid stretch marks. They are filled with couples using IUDs and who have been sterilized and don’t have a shred of guilt about it. THOSE are the people unjustly avoiding pregnancies.

Maybe there are couples using IUDs are not aware that it is truly against the Church’s teaching, maybe they think it is ok since so many people do it. We know better. We know it is not ok, and that we must NFP if we have the right reason. And we also know, because the Church has told us, that we have the duty to make sure our reasons are morally ok.
Is it impossible for a couple to have a strong enough desire to not want to deal with any more children, so they can have more money, take their current kid(s) on trips, do fun stuff etc, keep their good figure, etc etc…things that are not serious reasons, but that they are willing to avoid sex maybe only a couple of days a month, in order to not have to start over with newborns, and not have to sacrifice in areas they are capable of sacrificing, but don’t want to? If it is impossible for a couple to use NFP without good reasons, then I don’t know why the Church goes through the trouble of telling us we have to discern, and we have to keep into consideration the eternal repercussions of our choices, not just the earthly ones. If it is not impossible, then maybe it is just a good idea for us to stick to admitting that it can happen, that my husband and I could decide to avoid for the wrong reasons, and that we need to make sure we are motivated with the right reasons.

If I am brand new here, and I am wanting to be a saint, and wanting to do God’s will and be the best I can be, it isn’t sufficient to tell me: don’t use ABC, just use NFP to avoid and you will be fine. Because the truth is using NFP should be the result of prayerful discerning, with a formed conscience. Let’s just stick with what our Church is telling us. No need to try to guess if 99%, 75% or 50% of people using NFP have good reasons. That isn’t up to us. It is up to couples to discern it. But we can help people know what the Church says, that we have to have just/serious/unselfish reasons. They can then discern, according to their situation, whether they have them or not.

 

[maryjk]

Probably because most couples, who decide together to use NFP to avoid pregnancy, can’t imagine a couple doing so for flippant reasons. NFP is not unusually hard for me, but I’ve had a surprise pregnancy while using it, and it requires a large amount of abstinence, which is tougher on my husband than it is on me. It’s not fun. Who would do it if it weren’t important?

The reality is that the number of Catholics who use NFP to delay or avoid pregnancies is very, very low as compared to the number who use ABC and think the Church’s teaching is arcane and silly. It’s not as though parishes are filled with couples utilizing NFP so that they can buy Maseratisand want to avoid stretch marks. They are filled with couples using IUDs and who have been sterilized and don’t have a shred of guilt about it. THOSE are the people unjustly avoiding pregnancies.

I have met a number of couples that use NFP. Not one of them uses it for a flippant reason. Not one.

On the other hand, I know many more couples that use ABC. There are a few that would have just reasons for NFP. Most? Just don’t want any more children.

Are there couples out there using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality,” whatever that is? Possibly. More than a handful? I seriously doubt it.

 

[JackieMom]

Maybe there are couples using IUDs are not aware that it is truly against the Church’s teaching, maybe they think it is ok since so many people do it. We know better. We know it is not ok, and that we must NFP if we have the right reason. And we also know, because the Church has told us, that we have the duty to make sure our reasons are morally ok.
Is it impossible for a couple to have a strong enough desire to not want to deal with any more children, so they can have more money, take their current kid(s) on trips, do fun stuff etc, keep their good figure, etc etc…things that are not serious reasons, but that they are willing to avoid sex maybe only a couple of days a month, in order to not have to start over with newborns, and not have to sacrifice in areas they are capable of sacrificing, but don’t want to? If it is impossible for a couple to use NFP without good reasons, then I don’t know why the Church goes through the trouble of telling us we have to discern, and we have to keep into consideration the eternal repercussions of our choices, not just the earthly ones. If it is not impossible, then maybe it is just a good idea for us to stick to admitting that it can happen, that my husband and I could decide to avoid for the wrong reasons, and that we need to make sure we are motivated with the right reasons.

If I am brand new here, and I am wanting to be a saint, and wanting to do God’s will and be the best I can be, it isn’t sufficient to tell me: don’t use ABC, just use NFP to avoid and you will be fine. Because the truth is using NFP should be the result of prayerful discerning, with a formed conscience. Let’s just stick with what our Church is telling us. No need to try to guess if 99%, 75% or 50% of people using NFP have good reasons. That isn’t up to us. It is up to couples to discern it. But we can help people know what the Church says, that we have to have just/serious/unselfish reasons. They can then discern, according to their situation, whether they have them or not.

Maybe that’s the issue here - I think that limiting family size so that a couple has the means to take family vacations and do fun things with the kids they have is actually not a petty reason. Nor do I think that limiting family size so that money can be saved for retirement/elderly years, Catholic school, college, weddings, home improvements and soforth is selfish. Maybe your idea of “not just” and mine are different, which is why I don’t see many situations where NFP is used flippantly.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Maybe that’s the issue here - I think that limiting family size so that a couple has the means to take family vacations and do fun things with the kids they have is actually not a petty reason. Nor do I think that limiting family size so that money can be saved for retirement/elderly years, Catholic school, college, weddings, home improvements and soforth is selfish. Maybe your idea of “not just” and mine are different, which is why I don’t see many situations where NFP is used flippantly.

That may just be it. Never in a million years would I say God, I don’t want to receive another eternal soul because I would like to make sure I can take vacations and do fun things. God works in interesting ways, and we have been able to take trips and do fun things even though money has been tight. When we die, it won’t matter if we took our kids to Disney (although we were able to do it last year after very careful planning, for a lot less than what I have seen packages for families of 4 go). We do fun things with the kids all the time, it doesn’t always have to cost money (although we have been blessed in unexpected ways to be able to go on airplane trips to see family etc). I’m glad we didn’t stop our family size in order to do these things, because it turned out we have been able to do a lot anyway, but even if we wouldn’t have

2371 “Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny.”161 (1703)

. My dad died when I was little. I am glad my parents did not stop having kids (we were 4, my brother was 1 when my dad died) because of wanting to make sure they could pay for our college. It turns out we were all able to get a bachelor’s degree or higher. On the other hand, I do know people that have had their college paid for by their parents and never got a degree… so even if one does have the money to pay for it, it may not happen.
I’m glad they were open to receive my brother (and me!) instead of wanting to have more control over the future. There is a difference between not being able to pay for food/not having any sources of food and not being able to pay for a trip to Europe or Niagara Falls. Money, opportunities, etc, can come and go, but our gifts of fertility and time just go.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have met a number of couples that use NFP. Not one of them uses it for a flippant reason. Not one.

On the other hand, I know many more couples that use ABC. There are a few that would have just reasons for NFP. Most? Just don’t want any more children.

Are there couples out there using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality,” whatever that is? Possibly. More than a handful? I seriously doubt it.

I have friends who, when past their childbearing years, have said they have wondered if they might have spaced births when it really didn’t need to be avoided. They weren’t beating themselves up, just wondering if maybe they might have let the years pass by too quickly and not had the family size they might have been well able to support. I think they’d say it is worth re-visiting the “is it the time to wait?” question perhaps more often than they did, rather than that the original discernment was off-base or that they needed more specific “rules” about what is “serious enough” or not. I would not by any means call that a contraceptive mentality, even though they thought it might have lead to a smaller family than they might have been able to have been blessed with.