Is NFP licit - part 2

[Red_Beard]

I’d just like to point out that whether or not you think #2 is licit, I don’t see how it is possible. I would think the husband would notice periods of abstinence…

God bless,

Red Beard

 

[mpi]

I’d just like to point out that whether or not you think #2 is licit, I don’t see how it is possible. I would think the husband would notice periods of abstinence…

God bless,

Red Beard

The wife would say that she was “not in the mood” or “had a headache”.

 

[Red_Beard]

What’s most interesting is the question of can you say that your family is “built out” and, for whatever serious/just reasons you have, you are done having kids, even though you have fertility left?

I think this depends on your reasons. I don’t think that “x is the right number of kids” is a well founded reason, but that doesn’t mean that good reasons don’t exist. Your question presupposes a good reason and HV is pretty clear that avoiding pregnancy for good reason is acceptable.

God bless,

Red Beard

 

[Red_Meg]

OK - then define “well-grounded” for me. Or perhaps evaluate each of these “reasons” for abstaining and tell me if they are “well- grounded”:

1. Not sure about the economy. (but family owns home outright and makes over 150k. And how many years can a family get away with saying this).
2. The world is short of natural resources and overpopulated.
3. Planning a trip to a resort in the summer and don’t want to be pregnant.
4. In early 30s, but have decided that 2 is the ideal family size if one wants best outcomes for their children.
5. Last pregnancy was difficult - don’t want to go through that again.

By the way, having a child every 11 months is very difficult to do if you are breastfeeding. I hope you understand female biology enough that I don’t need to ellaborate.
2.
1.

I really can’t understand why you have such a bee in your bonnet on this particular issue.

For starters-- have you ever met ANYBODY who uses NFP who was relying on reasons 1-4 to not have any more children? I certainly haven’t.

Reason 5 is much too vague. Some women, I suppose, might consider another pregnancy too difficult because she has trouble reaching her toenails to pedicure them but again, I don’t think they’re the type to use NFP to begin with. I’ve had friends, however, whose pregnancies had serious consequences even after birth. But since they weren’t actually life-threatening, perhaps they don’t count either.

I’m sorry, but I’m getting a little ticked off by this whole line of discussion. DH & I have had eight children in sixteen years of marriage. Our ninth was due this spring, but sadly I miscarried last autumn. We are hoping for more.

I hope this has established my “street cred” with you, MPI. Now let me further state that there have been several intervals during my married life when DH & I relied on NFP to postpone the next baby. Reasons included: mother’s sanity–three babies, fourteen and fifteen months apart, respectively :whacky: ; need for carpal tunnel surgery – not life threatening, I know, but needed to maintain functionality of my hand; need to lose serious amount of weight – clinically obese on BMI charts and really bad cholesterol numbers, especially for a mid-30’s woman.

Nobody has to justify this to you, MPI, in real life or on-line. Have you honestly been having these kinds of conversations with your girlfriends after Mass, and getting really materialistic, nonsensical answers like you posted above? Or is it possible they’re not actually answerable to you, and are afraid to discuss it with you, fearing you’ll pounce on them for their lack of devotion?

Margaret

 

[maryjk]

OK - then define “well-grounded” for me. Or perhaps evaluate each of these “reasons” for abstaining and tell me if they are “well- grounded”:

1. Not sure about the economy. (but family owns home outright and makes over 150k. And how many years can a family get away with saying this).
2. The world is short of natural resources and overpopulated.
3. Planning a trip to a resort in the summer and don’t want to be pregnant.
4. In early 30s, but have decided that 2 is the ideal family size if one wants best outcomes for their children.
5. Last pregnancy was difficult - don’t want to go through that again.

By the way, having a child every 11 months is very difficult to do if you are breastfeeding. I hope you understand female biology enough that I don’t need to ellaborate.
2.
1.

Well grounded isn’t defined. The Church has not defined it for us.

And again, I refuse to buy into your thought that you know why people are using NFP. Your list always includes only the reasons YOU think they are using NFP. It may even be what they tell you. But no one but my husband and I know exactly why we are using it to avoid. I will say that it relates to number 5. That and various doctors’ opinions. And we have…gasp…ONE child.

And if you think that having lots of children is what defines you as Catholic, your wife would not breast feed. You could have more children that way.

 

[mpi]

I have not heard any of these specific 5 answers from anyone. I posted hypothetical reasons for purposes of furthering the discussion about when NFP to avoid pregnancy is licit. And we all know that it is not always licit.

 

[PaulinVA]

mpi, no one has answered the questions because we thought they were rhetorical.

Are those the reasons your five friend couples tell you are their reasons?

Yeah. I think you are looking for justification for your views that these are all bad reasons.

I proposed earlier that we address number 4, though. What does a couple do when they have as many children as they can “handle”, whatever that means to the couple?

Are there differences with short term and long term use of NFP? If I don’t want to be pregnant for a certain event, but will try to become pregnant during the event or later, what’s the matter with that? Maybe the woman is being fitted for an expensive dress or something.

 

[mpi]

mpi, no one has answered the questions because we thought they were rhetorical.

Are those the reasons your five friend couples tell you are their reasons?

Yeah. I think you are looking for justification for your views that these are all bad reasons.

I proposed earlier that we address number 4, though. What does a couple do when they have as many children as they can “handle”, whatever that means to the couple?

Are there differences with short term and long term use of NFP? If I don’t want to be pregnant for a certain event, but will try to become pregnant during the event or later, what’s the matter with that? Maybe the woman is being fitted for an expensive dress or something.

A woman wanting to delay pregnancy using NFP because she is being fitted for an expensive dress is obnoxious and definitely not “serious”. It seems as though it is clearly a sin.

Related to how many children a woman can “handle” - women decide how many children they can handle based on what their social circles are doing. If the average woman in her social circle has 4 kids, then they say 4 kids is all they can “handle”. If the average woman in her social circle has 2 kids, then they say 2 kids is all they can “handle”. This, I believe is also a sinful application of NFP, This is women choosing their clique over what the Bible and Catholic teaching says about the blessing of large families.

 

[PaulinVA]

A woman wanting to delay pregnancy using NFP because she is being fitted for an expensive dress is obnoxious and definitely not “serious”. It seems as though it is clearly a sin.

I disagree. Your argument is what? Why is postponing pregnancy for a few months to participate in a wedding or whatever not just or serious?

Related to how many children a woman can “handle” - women decide how many children they can handle based on what their social circles are doing. If the average woman in her social circle has 4 kids, then they say 4 kids is all they can “handle”. If the average woman in her social circle has 2 kids, then they say 2 kids is all they can “handle”. This, I believe is also a sinful application of NFP, This is women choosing their clique over what the Bible and Catholic teaching says about the blessing of large families.

This post is insulting to holy women everywhere. Do you really believe this?

You have been here for a while. You’ve read posts from couples who are seriously challenged by this teaching, but are trying to live it daily. You can read about families that are overwhelmed by one, two three children, whatever, and are taking a break from making babies to catch their breath. To lump all of these people into, “So, how many kids are You going to have?” is pretty narrow and one dimensional.

Dealing with a couple’s fertility over thirty years or so is a challenge. There is no one size fits all solution. There can be holy people with one child, there can be people with ten kids for the wrong reasons.

Instead of using pejorative words like “obnoxious,” perhaps you could expand on your thinking so that we can understand it?

 

[mpi]

I disagree. Your argument is what? Why is postponing pregnancy for a few months to participate in a wedding or whatever not just or serious?

This post is insulting to holy women everywhere. Do you really believe this?

You have been here for a while. You’ve read posts from couples who are seriously challenged by this teaching, but are trying to live it daily. You can read about families that are overwhelmed by one, two three children, whatever, and are taking a break from making babies to catch their breath. To lump all of these people into, “So, how many kids are You going to have?” is pretty narrow and one dimensional.

Dealing with a couple’s fertility over thirty years or so is a challenge. There is no one size fits all solution. There can be holy people with one child, there can be people with ten kids for the wrong reasons.

Instead of using pejorative words like “obnoxious,” perhaps you could expand on your thinking so that we can understand it?

You have your head in the sand on this. Why else would there be different notions of “ideal family size” in different nations? There are hundreds of scientific studies of this. Its ok to reject science - but back up your rejection with something other than some fluffy notion that my tone could hurt people’s feelings.

jstor.org/pss/799540
israeldemography.com/Forecast%20for%20Israel%202025%20June%202006.ppt

 

[PaulinVA]

You have your head in the sand on this. Why else would there be different notions of “ideal family size” in different nations? There are hundreds of scientific studies of this. Its ok to reject science - but back up your rejection with something other than some fluffy notion that my tone could hurt people’s feelings.

Your tone is brusque at times, but so is mine, so that is not a problem.

I have been using NFP for over 18 years. I have put a lot of thought and prayer into it’s application.

I would hope that Catholics employing NFP (already bucking the culture) are not being overly influenced by society’s view of the ideal family. In fact, I would say that a lot of NFPing Catholics are a little counterculture.

If you are dealing with friends that seem to not be popping out the babies quickly enough for you, you need to remember that the decision is made monthly - there is always the possibility that the decision for any month will be “Yeah, why not”.

Give your struggling Catholic brothers and sisters a break - only 3% of American Catholics use NFP. We want to pull more people into that boat, not throw people overboard for not rowing the way we do.

 

[maryjk]

Give your struggling Catholic brothers and sisters a break - only 3% of American Catholics use NFP. We want to pull more people into that boat, not throw people overboard for not rowing the way we do.

See, but his thought is that if couples using NFP to avoid, were using NFP to conceive, more people would jump into the row boat.

Problem is, it is already hard enough to convince people that works NFP to avoid. Everyone that I know, that uses NFP, uses it to conceive. That means that everyone I know that uses NFP, except me, have 5+ children. A few have 7+ children. It was not the best advertisment for for me. I need to avoid, It was only faith in God that let me use NFP in the first place.

 

[PaulinVA]

See, but his thought is that if couples using NFP to avoid, were using NFP to conceive, more people would jump into the row boat.

Problem is, it is already hard enough to convince people that works NFP to avoid. Everyone that I know, that uses NFP, uses it to conceive. That means that everyone I know that uses NFP, except me, have 5+ children. A few have 7+ children. It was not the best advertisment for for me. I need to avoid, It was only faith in God that let me use NFP in the first place.

We’ve used the Sympto-Thermal Method for both avoiding and conceiving, and it works as advertised.

There are some people who have a permanent reason to avoid. Or, at least avoid for an extended period. There is nothing wrong with this.

 

[maryjk]

We’ve used the Sympto-Thermal Method for both avoiding and conceiving, and it works as advertised.

There are some people who have a permanent reason to avoid. Or, at least avoid for an extended period. There is nothing wrong with this.

True.
But I guess my point was that if every couple using NFP, were using it to conceive and having lots of children, wouldn’t that turn off couples that needed a way to not have more children?

mpi’s idea is that if everyone using NFP were having lots of children, that would pull more couples to NFP. I say that just the opposite could happen.

 

[PaulinVA]

True.
But I guess my point was that if every couple using NFP, were using it to conceive and having lots of children, wouldn’t that turn off couples that needed a way to not have more children?

mpi’s idea is that if everyone using NFP were having lots of children, that would pull more couples to NFP. I say that just the opposite could happen.

Mary, I understand that the large family sizes of NFP families implies that NFP doesn’t work, when in fact the people who practice it are just more open to children. Or open to more children.

I think that mpi is a providentialist, and believes that NFP should not be used to avoid.

 

[maryjk]

Mary, I understand that the large family sizes of NFP families implies that NFP doesn’t work, when in fact the people who practice it are just more open to children. Or open to more children.

Agreed, but to those of us that use NFP to avoid, could, and did, find it hard to trust NFP to avoid.

I think that mpi is a providentialist, and believes that NFP should not be used to avoid.

Again, I agree. But that is not the position of the Catholic church. And since I am a member of the Catholic church and not part of the Quiverfull movement, it is fine for me and others to use it.

 

[PaulinVA]

Mary, we are in agreement.

I just wish that mpi could explain his/her position more fully, so that we could understand.