Is NFP "normal"

[1ke]

Jocelyn:

I have a question. I am questioning NFP seriously. Why and how did the church change it’s teaching on sex from procreative to unitive? How can the church change a teaching? I thought Rome was infallible.

There has been no change. The unitive and procreative aspects of conjugal love have always been church teaching. Different theologians have emphasized one or the other through the ages, and some have emphasized one almost to the exclusion of the other. Theologians are not “the Church” however.

Jocelyn:

Back in the day when families of 18 were existant is when people truly believed in God’s providence. Where today do we see families of 18? Back im my grandmother’s day, and even my parents these large families were EVERYWHERE!!! There was no such thing as a VALID reason for not having a child. They did with what they had, and still accepted children.

Jocelyn, this is simply untrue. There were many people who did not have large families due a serious reason such as the mother being ill. Their choice was life-long abstinence and people did choose that. NFP is merely a way to have less abstinence, but it is just abstinence, which has always been licit.

Jocelyn:

I don’t get the valid thing. What is considered to be a valid reason? I know it is between God and the couple, but to be honest, I don’t think I would ever have a valid reason, therefore, I would have 10 children.

Jocelyn, that is you. Others have valid reasons. My reasons are not yours and vice versa.

Jocelyn:

Please don’t say health, income, or strength. Are we not to believe and trust in God.

That is called Providentialism and is not Church teaching.

Jocelyn:

If NFP had existed in the time of the great Saints(St. Francis of Assisi, St. Therese) then these great saints may not have lived because the parents had a valid reason.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. You cannot make this judgment.

Jocelyn:

I don’t get it when NFPers say that they are open to life anytime. No you aren’t. You are saying,“Honey, we can’t make love for the next 3 days, because I am ovulating and we don’t want a child. However, we can makelove all we want when I am not fertile.” The NFP couple is saying no to God also.

Each act of intercourse is objectively procreative because it is unaltered. There is no requirement by God to engage in intercourse on any certain days or with any certain frequency. But, on each occasion that we do engage in the sex act that act must be completely unaltered.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

1ke:

That is called Providentialism and is not Church teaching.

Careful there, people very often label generous families “providentialists” for trusting God that He will not give them more than they can handle. There is a difference between those who put themselves in harms way purposely without a good reason, then expect God to save them and those who trust that God will not give them more than they can handle. This is why this is such a personal subject. God is generous with those who are generous with Him.

 

[Jocelyn]

Felra,

Please, Please, Please don’t take this as an insult.

I am an educated woman. I am not a theologin. I even have a difficult time understanding what you are trying to say. I get so discouraged. This is why I don’t want to read those texts. They discourage me. Put something out there that the lay people can understand.

I love God with all my heart. Why are these reservations coming to me?

I want answers. When I ask direct questions, no one steps up to the plate to answer them. WHY???

I don’t believe in the church conforming to the people. This is why we have so many protestant sects. I believe in the people conforming to the church this is why I love my Church.

I don’t care what the normal are doing. (Sorry, SemperJase) I care what my God wants of me.

I am praying for assistance. The Blessed Mother will direct me.

Today, at mass I was brought to tears. My little 2 year old daughter showed love and empathy for another little boy. She even gave the boys mom a kiss. She is learning from my dh and I how to love and care. How to have a heart.
Then someone spoke to me.
“Jocelyn, that is what it is all about. It’s not about having oddles of kids. It’s about teaching the ones you have to have a warm heart like your dad taught you.”
I can’t handle 4 or 5 or 6 kids. Does that make me a bad person?
Then I wonder why I bother posting my heart out to people who I don’t even know, who don’t know me.
It’s so scarey.
The lack of priests. One of our own was defrocked for molesting boys.
And people wonder why there is such spiritual warfare going on inside our hearts.
I Ias on the pill for YEARS!!! I only found out recently it can cause abortions. HUH??? I feel betrayed by the medical community. How can a cradle Catholic, who went to CCD, marriage prep, cursillo, mass every weak be so lost and not even know the pill can cause abortions? Satan is so darn powerful. He is hiding everywhere!! And if you think I am lost, ther are lots of people out there more lost than me.
I tell people of what I learned about the pill. They all look at me like I have 3 heads.
I will do my research. As you said, I shouldn’t be spoonfed. God worked through my dh to get me off that death pill. He will direct me in the wrong direction on this.
Thanks.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

have a question. I am questioning NFP seriously.
Why and how did the church change it’s teaching on sex from procreative to unitive? How can the church change a teaching? I thought Rome was infallible. I am seriously seeking answers, so please no insults. It will turn me off to this board, and insulting is not a way to get a point across on a touchy issue.

Jocelyn I applaud your search. In Genesis God says

“It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him.”

I wouldn’t call it a change but a development of understanding of what God intended. Many do not understand infallible teachings. Because the Church emphasised the procreation part of marriage does not mean that the Church said it was the ONLY reason. I believe that the Church always taught a dual purpose for marriage so it isn’t a new teaching. This discussion we are having wouldn’t have been thought of in the beginings of the Church. Our culture has changed so the emphasis need to change as well. NFP can also be used to have children. Two of my children would not have existed if it were not for NFP.

 

[puzzleannie]

Jocelyn:

Felra,. Put something out there that the lay people can understand.

I want answers. When I ask direct questions, no one steps up to the plate to answer them. WHY???
.

Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West. Sure wish I had this when I was newly married, such grief it would have saved us.

 

[1ke]

lifeisbeautiful:

Careful there, people very often label generous families “providentialists” for trusting God that He will not give them more than they can handle. There is a difference between those who put themselves in harms way purposely without a good reason, then expect God to save them and those who trust that God will not give them more than they can handle. This is why this is such a personal subject. God is generous with those who are generous with Him.

I am in no way labeling generous families or saying that they cannot be providential if they choose. However, the previous poster was basically saying that there is no reason adequate to consciously space/plan/postpone their family. So, while those who are generous and have large families may or may not have a providential attitude, Providentialism for everyone is not a tenet of the Church.

 

[SemperJase]

Jocelyn:

Felra,
I don’t care what the normal are doing. (Sorry, SemperJase) I care what my God wants of me.

No offense. I didn’t claimed that normal is right. I was trying to point out there is a value judgement if we make that claim that NFP is normal.

NFP is not normal in the sense that it is not practiced by the majority of people - not even the majority of catholics.

I might be right, but it isn’t “normal”.

 

[SemperJase]

felra:

being open to life

– means to introduce no artificial barriers or means to the procreative potential of the marital act. NFP is countercultural and goes against the grain of where our bodies and desires would have us immediately go.

You mentioned that NFP goes against the grain of where our bodies and desires would have us go. (Perhaps you meant ABC?)

Even so, NFP is rejecting where our bodies would go since it requires abstaining exactly when a woman is most likely to desire sex. In addition, why is the interrupting method not “natural”. There are no artificial barriers there.

There are only 3 ways that a couple is 100% birth proof – abstinence, hysterectomy, castration. “Percentage” of effectiveness is not a variable of being “open to life”. NFP does not act against

the procreative potential of conjugal sexual love.

Since it’s design is to avoid conception, it seems it does act against the procreative potential.

 

[felra]

SemperJase:

No offense. I didn’t claimed that normal is right. I was trying to point out there is a value judgement if we make that claim that NFP is normal.

NFP is not normal in the sense that it is not practiced by the majority of people - not even the majority of catholics.

I might be right, but it isn’t “normal”.

I beg to differ. Those “majority of people” are the ones that are deviating from the norm of Catholic living; they just happen to comprise the statisitical majority.

I am still curious as to why the emphasis on distiguising what is “normal”. To walk as a faithful and good Catholic is by no measure of standard the “norm” in today’s growing secularistic society.

 

[felra]

You mentioned that NFP goes against the grain of where our bodies and desires would have us go. (Perhaps you meant ABC?)

No, I did not mean ABC. I mean by “going against the grain” the exercise of delaying instant gratification and developing the virtue of temperance.

**1809 ***Temperance *is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: “Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart.” Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: “Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites.” In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought “to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world.” (CCC)

Even so, NFP is rejecting where our bodies would go since it requires abstaining exactly when a woman is most likely to desire sex. In addition, why is the interrupting method not “natural”.

There are no artificial barriers there.
Because it dovorces the unitive from the procreative dual aspect of conjugal sexual love – hard to at all consider this a “natural” process or instinct (i.e., putting the car in reverse when all gears are motioning forward).

Since it’s design is to avoid conception, it seems it does act against the procreative potential.

NFP does not act against the procreative potential, it represents a “cooperating with the love of God the Creator” as a couple takes up the responsibility of the "regulation of procreation";

[2367](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2367.htm’) Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 “Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility.” (CCC)

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. (CCC)

 

[felra]

Felra,

Please, Please, Please don’t take this as an insult.

I am an educated woman. I am not a theologin. I even have a difficult time understanding what you are trying to say. I get so discouraged. This is why I don’t want to read those texts. They discourage me. Put something out there that the lay people can understand.

Try this article which is relatively easy to understand and which has some useful links at the end of it:

envoymagazine.com/familyplanning.htm

 

[RCCDefender]

SemperJase:

In addition, why is the interrupting method not “natural”. There are no artificial barriers there.

I am guessing by this comment, you are referring to coitus interuptus(sp?)…
If that is so I suggest you read about the Sin of Onan in Genesis 38:6-10. God killed Onan because he “wasted his seed on the ground.”

Jocelyn:

I don’t get the valid thing. What is considered to be a valid reason? I know it is between God and the couple, but to be honest, I don’t think I would ever have a valid reason, therefore, I would have 10 children.

You said not to include health, but I am going to anyway. My First baby almost died because my body tried to kill her. I have rare platelets that have formed antibodies which will basically make any other child I try to have hemmorage inside my womb. I think that is a valid reason to use NFP…

Jocelyn:

I was on the pill for YEARS!!! I only found out recently it can cause abortions. HUH??? I feel betrayed by the medical community. How can a cradle Catholic, who went to CCD, marriage prep, cursillo, mass every weak be so lost and not even know the pill can cause abortions? Satan is so darn powerful. He is hiding everywhere!! And if you think I am lost, ther are lots of people out there more lost than me.
I tell people of what I learned about the pill. They all look at me like I have 3 heads.

I am so sorry you were not told this horrible truth at marriage prep. I had known, but we were also told at Engaged Encounter. Satan IS hiding everywhere; he distorts many things we think will make our marriages stronger and takes lives and souls who don’t even realize he is hiding in them. The medical community is NOT, for the most par,t on the side of Christians, and, in particular, Catholics. I found a good NFP doctor through the help of a poster on this site. I thank God for her and I don’t care that I have to drive an hour outside of town. Go to omsoul.com and see if there is a doctor near you