Is not caring about a doctrine the same as denying it?

[Linusthe2nd]

Hi,

I’m in a situation where I honestly don’t care whether the list of Church dogmas and doctrines are all true… I know, I know, kinda weird. But that’s where I’m at. So, I hear that denying any of these is a bad thing, that doubting them might be acceptable…but I guess I’m curious about the way I view them - I don’t exactly doubt them so much as I don’t care at all whether they’re true or not. I currently just see them as a hindrance to faith in Christ for me. I’ve adopted a mentality where I completely reject any arguments in favor of or in disagreement with doctrines other than the most basic teachings of Christianity. So I’m fine with the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, God creating the Universe, the Trinity, etc. but the things that are distinctly Catholic or Protestant or Anglican or Eastern Orthodox… I’m just so over the disagreement and the endless amounts of information to support any of these views that I’ve concluded I will never make up my mind about who is right, so I stopped caring.

Does that fall under doubt? Or what?

It sounds more like unbelief. Of course you know you can’t be a Catholic in good standing unless you believe what is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, linked below.

The Church teaches a great number of things about faith and morals which must be believed. And it is the obligation of Catholics to accept and believe what is taught. Our duty is to adhere to these teachings and then pray that we may see the reasonableness of them and to spend some time trying to understand why the Church teaches what she does.

What will make this easier is to understand that the Church is guided by and authorized by the Holy Spirit to teach in God’s name. Futher, the Church teaches nothing today, at least in its broad outline, that it has not always taught, and that Christ himself did not teach. So we may not understand why the Church teaches a certain doctrine or a certain moral precept, but we can rest secure in the knowledge that Christ himself taught it.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Wow. I’m speechless…

That was awful. I apologize that you had to be subject to that.

Linus2nd

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hi,

I’m in a situation where I honestly don’t care whether the list of Church dogmas and doctrines are all true… I know, I know, kinda weird. But that’s where I’m at. So, I hear that denying any of these is a bad thing, that doubting them might be acceptable…but I guess I’m curious about the way I view them - I don’t exactly doubt them so much as I don’t care at all whether they’re true or not. I currently just see them as a hindrance to faith in Christ for me. I’ve adopted a mentality where I completely reject any arguments in favor of or in disagreement with doctrines other than the most basic teachings of Christianity. So I’m fine with the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, God creating the Universe, the Trinity, etc. but the things that are distinctly Catholic or Protestant or Anglican or Eastern Orthodox… I’m just so over the disagreement and the endless amounts of information to support any of these views that I’ve concluded I will never make up my mind about who is right, so I stopped caring.

Does that fall under doubt? Or what?

I’m in my fifth year of theology studies at a Roman Catholic college, and I do not have any doubts or an “I don’t care” feeling, but I can assure you that I get plain TIRED sometimes. The last five years have been a reading marathon, and sometimes my eyes get physically tired. I’ve sometimes fallen asleep studying. I love theology, and I love the Church, and I’m in love with Christ, but physical exhaustion takes a toll on anyone. Maybe you are just plain tired.

God bless. We all have dry spells. It will get better if you persevere.

 

[Church_Militant]

Indifferentism could be a problem I suppose…

 

[slh3016]

Hi,

I’m in a situation where I honestly don’t care whether the list of Church dogmas and doctrines are all true… I know, I know, kinda weird. But that’s where I’m at. So, I hear that denying any of these is a bad thing, that doubting them might be acceptable…but I guess I’m curious about the way I view them - I don’t exactly doubt them so much as I don’t care at all whether they’re true or not. I currently just see them as a hindrance to faith in Christ for me. I’ve adopted a mentality where I completely reject any arguments in favor of or in disagreement with doctrines other than the most basic teachings of Christianity. So I’m fine with the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, God creating the Universe, the Trinity, etc. but the things that are distinctly Catholic or Protestant or Anglican or Eastern Orthodox… I’m just so over the disagreement and the endless amounts of information to support any of these views that I’ve concluded I will never make up my mind about who is right, so I stopped caring.

Does that fall under doubt? Or what?

After non-stop research for the last 2 1/2 years regarding the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy, etc., I can totally relate to a lot of what you wrote. It is exhausting and very confusing MOST of the time. I think a lot of the exhaustion does come from getting caught up in the details and trying to decide “truth” on every minute thing.

As DavidFilmer stated (I think), it all comes down to authority.

Once I decided in my heart that the Catholic Church possesses the God-given authority, everything else just kinda fell into place. Do I understand it all now? No, but I’m willing to say that the Church that possesses the authority left by Christ knows better than I do. I’m willing to submit to that authority because I believe that, in the end, as long as I have sought God with all my heart (notice, I used a verb which means that I intend to keep seeking) and even if the Catholic Church ends up being wrong on something (gasp!), God knows that I have earnestly sought Him and not my own way in life. It’s very much like Pascal’s Wager.

My BFF that converted last year wisely told me that, at some point, I have to stop seeking definitive “proof” for every.single.thing. Proof is not faith. We are called to have faith, not the strongest intellect or best reasoning abilities. We get so caught up in seeking the “proof” that we fail to actually live our faith or put it into action. I am very guilty of this most of the time. I’m pretty sure my time would be better spent serving in a soup kitchen and showing others the love of Christ than scouring CAF

I don’t think that means we can be indifferent or apathetic, though. My point is, and this is critical, we must trust the authority we are submitting ourselves to. We may not understand it, but we must try to understand it or at least accept it as truth and authoritative in our lives. God will work everything else out in the end if we keep seeking Him.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

After non-stop research for the last 2 1/2 years regarding the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy, etc., I can totally relate to a lot of what you wrote. It is exhausting and very confusing MOST of the time. I think a lot of the exhaustion does come from getting caught up in the details and trying to decide “truth” on every minute thing.

As DavidFilmer stated (I think), it all comes down to authority.

Once I decided in my heart that the Catholic Church possesses the God-given authority, everything else just kinda fell into place. Do I understand it all now? No, but I’m willing to say that the Church that possesses the authority left by Christ knows better than I do. I’m willing to submit to that authority because I believe that, in the end, as long as I have sought God with all my heart (notice, I used a verb which means that I intend to keep seeking) and even if the Catholic Church ends up being wrong on something (gasp!), God knows that I have earnestly sought Him and not my own way in life. It’s very much like Pascal’s Wager.

My BFF that converted last year wisely told me that, at some point, I have to stop seeking definitive “proof” for every.single.thing. Proof is not faith. We are called to have faith, not the strongest intellect or best reasoning abilities. We get so caught up in seeking the “proof” that we fail to actually live our faith or put it into action. I am very guilty of this most of the time. I’m pretty sure my time would be better spent serving in a soup kitchen and showing others the love of Christ than scouring CAF

I don’t think that means we can be indifferent or apathetic, though. My point is, and this is critical, we must trust the authority we are submitting ourselves to. We may not understand it, but we must try to understand it or at least accept it as truth and authoritative in our lives. God will work everything else out in the end if we keep seeking Him.

Oh my, I think you totally understand where I’m coming from!! The only difference is that I’m there with Jesus and God, I don’t feel I need any more “proof” for them and I’ve accepted it on faith. But the Church is a harder pill to swallow…I keep asking myself “why exactly should I submit to an authority such as this seemingly human institution without proof that they are in fact what they claim to be?” I did what you did when I first converted. But eventually not having that proof I ended up losing my faith completely. I feel that viewing the Church as anything other than a human institution puts my faith in jeopardy because I don’t want to go through the same cycle that I went before where I kinda suspended disbelief but then the doubts were to big to deal with and I fell away from faith completely…and I rather have faith in God and Jesus than be atheist!

I’m not sure if I’m making sense. I guess what I’m saying is I’m not good at the faith thing because I doubt everything constantly and it’s like I only have just enough capacity for faith to put it in the belief in Jesus and I don’t want to ruin that by extending my faith to a long list of dogmas that I certainly don’t have proof of or confidence in at this time and then make it so much harder to sustain my faith (because there would be so much more to doubt and I obsessively doubt)

 

[Genesis315]

“God, I don’t care about some of the truths you have revealed for my good and means you have provided for my salvation. Even though, according to your divine wisdom, you chose to reveal and provide them, I think they’re irrelevant.”

Is that a good thing to say to God? I don’t think so. Indifference toward God’s revelation is indifference towards His charity (since He reveals because He loves us). Indifference toward divine wisdom and charity doesnot lead down the same path that embracing His wisdom and charity leads us.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

“God, I don’t care about some of the truths you have revealed for my good and means you have provided for my salvation. Even though, according to your divine wisdom, you chose to reveal and provide them, I think they’re irrelevant.”

Is that a good thing to say to God? I don’t think so. Indifference toward God’s revelation is indifference towards His charity (since He reveals because He loves us). Indifference toward divine wisdom and charity doesnot lead down the same path that embracing His wisdom and charity leads us.

You are misrepresenting what I’ve said.

Lots of people claim they have the truth - that the things they teach are from God. It seems appropriate to question these people.

Questioning people is not the same as telling God “you clearly revealed this truth and I don’t care about it”.

 

[Genesis315]

You are misrepresenting what I’ve said.

Lots of people claim they have the truth - that the things they teach are from God. It seems appropriate to question these people.

Questioning people is not the same as telling God “you clearly revealed this truth and I don’t care about it”.

Definitely question until you find the truth, but don’t give up. Giving up would be what I described, or least, you would be telling God it’s not worth the effort to find His truth and means of salvation.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Definitely question until you find the truth, but don’t give up. Giving up would be what I described, or least, you would be telling God it’s not worth the effort to find His truth and means of salvation.

But it’s seemingly impossible to figure it out. It seems to me there is no reason to search for “truth” beyond having discovered Jesus. All the doctrinal differences seem petty. Why not ignore the things Christians disagree on and embrace the things they do agree on? Why think we can find all the answers in this lifetime with our imperfect minds and imperfect reasoning skills?

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Also, Genesis315, you bring up a good point… You refer to finding God’s means of salvation. What exactly is that? Because it seems you’re saying that accepting a list of truths that the Catholic Church teaches, or at least accepting that the Church is the truth would be the means, but I had always thought the means to salvation was faith in Jesus. I don’t understand theology that deeply so I may be wrong but feel free to clarify. This is the thing that bothers me, that the Church seems to say you have to be Catholic (and all the rules that that entails) to be saved… Where as the Gospel seems to teach something a little more basic.

Edit: this should probably be a new thread… I’m gonna make it.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

But it’s seemingly impossible to figure it out. It seems to me there is no reason to search for “truth” beyond having discovered Jesus. All the doctrinal differences seem petty. Why not ignore the things Christians disagree on and embrace the things they do agree on? Why think we can find all the answers in this lifetime with our imperfect minds and imperfect reasoning skills?

I think you need to put YOURSELF in perspective. It will help you understand Christianity much better.

God does not expect ANYONE to sift through all of the doctrines and intellectually determine which ones must be true and which ones may not be.

God and YOU are in a dynamic, whereby he revealed Himself to you, and He awaits your response. How you ask? Look for Divine Revelation. Divine Revelation can only be found within a Divine Religion.

Because we all have busy lives, and some are better able to sort through doctrines than others, God has made it VERY EASY FOR US. He puts His Seal on His Revelation and His church.

How does God put His Seal on His Revelation? With Divine Miracles. Look at all of the OT Patriarchs, Moses, the Prophets etc. God seals His Revelation with Divine Miracles. Now that doesn’t mean that YOU personally will necessarily experience God’s Divine Miracles (although you may, or may already have.) That is why once the Revelation has been entrusted to an AUTHORITY (Such as the Patriarchs, Moses and the Prophets.) Then we merely need to be obedient to that authority.

If you think of yourself as a Christian, it is NOT because YOU found Jesus, but Jesus found YOU, through His Church, the repository of His Divine Revelation.

If you can not accept that His Church is Divine, then how can you believe that Jesus is Divine? If you can not accept the authority of His Church, then how can you accept the authority of Jesus?

Jesus said He who rejects you, rejects me, and Him who sent Me. Words to ponder…

Don’t kid yourself, you can NOT be a Christian without submitting to Your King, Your Savior, and His duly appointed Stewards on earth.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

I think you need to put YOURSELF in perspective. It will help you understand Christianity much better.

God does not expect ANYONE to sift through all of the doctrines and intellectually determine which ones must be true and which ones may not be.

God and YOU are in a dynamic, whereby he revealed Himself to you, and He awaits your response. How you ask? Look for Divine Revelation. Divine Revelation can only be found within a Divine Religion.

Because we all have busy lives, and some are better able to sort through doctrines than others, God has made it VERY EASY FOR US. He puts His Seal on His Revelation and His church.

How does God put His Seal on His Revelation? With Divine Miracles. Look at all of the OT Patriarchs, Moses, the Prophets etc. God seals His Revelation with Divine Miracles. Now that doesn’t mean that YOU personally will necessarily experience God’s Divine Miracles (although you may, or may already have.) That is why once the Revelation has been entrusted to an AUTHORITY (Such as the Patriarchs, Moses and the Prophets.) Then we merely need to be obedient to that authority.

If you think of yourself as a Christian, it is NOT because YOU found Jesus, but Jesus found YOU, through His Church, the repository of His Divine Revelation.

If you can not accept that His Church is Divine, then how can you believe that Jesus is Divine? If you can not accept the authority of His Church, then how can you accept the authority of Jesus?

Jesus said He who rejects you, rejects me, and Him who sent Me. Words to ponder…

Don’t kid yourself, you can NOT be a Christian without submitting to Your King, Your Savior, and His duly appointed Stewards on earth.

I don’t see how some of you don’t get it. Do you think that Catholicism is the only religion that claims to have God’s truth???

They aren’t.

I see no way of proving conclusively that they’re the only ones whose claim is true.

It seems more likely that to claim “we have the truth!” is just a human inclination.

 

[captainrick]

I don’t see how some of you don’t get it. Do you think that Catholicism is the only religion that claims to have God’s truth???

They aren’t.

I see no way of proving conclusively that they’re the only ones whose claim is true.

It seems more likely that to claim “we have the truth!” is just a human inclination.

I, for one, “get it,” and agree with you.

(By the way, thank you, Moderators, for dealing promptly with the GWWDVD problem)

 

[steve_b]

Hi,

I’m in a situation where I honestly don’t care whether the list of Church dogmas and doctrines are all true… I know, I know, kinda weird. But that’s where I’m at. So, I hear that denying any of these is a bad thing, that doubting them might be acceptable…

That’s not acceptable either.

When we say the creed at mass, we don’t say “I believe in…” and then say or think, except for…

We believe in all of what we confess, or there is no AMEN at the end for that person. Meaning they have heresy in them

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
D:

but I guess I’m curious about the way I view them - I don’t exactly doubt them so much as I don’t care at all whether they’re true or not.

Indifferentism / relativism to truths about the faith is just as bad.
D:

I currently just see them as a hindrance to faith in Christ for me.

Faith is NOT something you manufacture yourself.
D:

I’ve adopted a mentality where I completely reject any arguments in favor of or in disagreement with doctrines other than the most basic teachings of Christianity. So I’m fine with the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, God creating the Universe, the Trinity, etc. but the things that are distinctly Catholic or Protestant or Anglican or Eastern Orthodox… I’m just so over the disagreement and the endless amounts of information to support any of these views that I’ve concluded I will never make up my mind about who is right, so I stopped caring.

The things you say you believe in came via the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.
D:

Does that fall under doubt? Or what?

I’d say it comes under the definition of heresy

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

 

[DavidFilmer]

I’d say it comes under the definition of heresy

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

I didn’t see anything in D0ubtfire’s post to suggest any obstinacy, or any sort of denial (which suggests a deliberate refusal to believe). Not believing is not the same as refusing to believe.

Complacency or indifference, maybe (and that’s not good), but not obstinate denial.

 

[slh3016]

I don’t see how some of you don’t get it. Do you think that Catholicism is the only religion that claims to have God’s truth???

They aren’t.

I see no way of proving conclusively that they’re the only ones whose claim is true.

It seems more likely that to claim “we have the truth!” is just a human inclination.

I think you are looking at this backwards.

Yes, all religions claim to have “the truth” but we know that cannot be true, right? Truth is NOT relative; it is ABSOLUTE.

Soooooo, looking at the history of the Christian religion, we must decide where TRUTH resides and who has the most authentic claim of possessing the truth that Christ deposited with the Apostles. The first thing you must decide for yourself: Did Christ deposit the fullness of truth with the Apostles/early church?

Here’s what the Bible says about truth:

John 16:13 - “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”

1 Timothy 3:15 - “…if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and buttress of the truth.”

So from these two verses we can see that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth) to guide the Church into all truth and the Church will be the the pillar of truth!

Does that sound like an invisible Church to you? It certainly doesn’t to me.

Also, the one mark of the Church that is the pillar of truth is that the Holy Spirit is guiding it. Now, many Protestants claim that they are led by the Holy Spirit (and I don’t doubt that the Spirit is at work in those congregations and in individual lives) but IF the Holy Spirit is leading all 25K+ of them, then either a) the Holy Spirit is a liar and a fraud, b) the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic, or c) all of those “churches” are not truly led by the Holy Spirit. Which of those three seems most logical to you?

There are only two options, in my mind, as to which visible Church is being led by the Holy Spirit from the time of Pentecost until today. Those options are either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, which incidentally agree on a substantial more than they disagree on in opposition to Protestantism.

Next, you have to decide on authority and which of these two do you think best gives a structure that can deal with problems and disputes better? Which seems most likely to be the type of authoritative structure that Christ would’ve left on Earth? To me, that can only be the Catholic Church, which is why I’m in RCIA. Again, I may not understand or fully comprehend everything that the Catholic Church teaches, but I’m willing to humble myself and admit that I and my reasoning abilities are far from infallible I trust the Church that is led by the Holy Spirit. Honestly, some of the doctrines/dogmas you refer to as being stumbling blocks to you in your relationship with Christ will only be stumbling blocks IF you allow them to be. Otherwise, just accept (notice, I didn’t say believe or be convinced, just merely accept) them and move on with life

 

[steve_b]

I didn’t see anything in D0ubtfire’s post to suggest any obstinacy, or any sort of denial (which suggests a deliberate refusal to believe). Not believing is not the same as refusing to believe.

Complacency or** indifference**, maybe (and that’s not good), but not obstinate denial.

Definitions

• Obstinate = stubbornly refusing to change one’s opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
• Indifference = : lack of interest in or concern about something

This isn’t an either /or, but it’s both obstinate AND indifferent

Doubtfire wrote:

“I’ve adopted a mentality where I completely reject any arguments in favor of or in disagreement with doctrines other than the most basic teachings of Christianity. So I’m fine with the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, God creating the Universe, the Trinity, etc. but the things that are distinctly Catholic or Protestant or Anglican or Eastern Orthodox… I’m just so over the disagreement and the endless amounts of information to support any of these views that I’ve concluded I will never make up my mind about who is right, so I stopped caring.”

Now take a look again at the definitions

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I don’t see how some of you don’t get it. Do you think that Catholicism is the only religion that claims to have God’s truth???

They aren’t.

I see no way of proving conclusively that they’re the only ones whose claim is true.

It seems more likely that to claim “we have the truth!” is just a human inclination.

Exactly right. That is why God puts his seal on the authentic religion. That is what I was talking about with the Divine Miracles.

Now, it is true, in our time, we have to take on Faith, Biblical miracles. But ecclesiastical miracles are still happening today, if it helps your Faith.

So there IS a way of proving conclusively whose claim is true. That is EXACTLY why Jesus told the Pharisees, if you don’t believe in Me, then at least believe in the works that I do. (His undeniable miracles.) But just like the Pharisees, we always have free will. So we can reject even Divine proofs if our hearts are hardened, and our necks stiff.

 

[3DOCTORS]

*Note: I composed a long, thoughtful reply and got logged out and wasn’t able to get back to save the original :banghead: so this is a reconstructed verson and probably not as good. *

I had started off by noting that there were several good tidbits in other posts that I would like to quote but I don’t have the time to do that just now. I’ll try to get back and do that post later on.

Here’s the gist of the rest –

Our culture encourages us to “think for ourselves” – often to a fault. It’s one of those things that can be good, too – keeps us from being overly gullible, joining Elvis UFO cults, and so on. But sometimes it can interfere with our recognizing the good and true when we find it, or the questioning can cause us to nitpick or to study every concept it till our brain hurts, then give up in frustration.

Some people have a questioning nature and are inclined to be more questioning in one area or another. For some the most questioning area is religion. As mentioned before, if there is anxiety or a need to feel in control this can become very strong for a person.

What has been coming to my mind is the 6th chapter of John. usccb.org/bible/john/6 Specifically, Bread of Life Discourse from verse 22 through 59. Jesus presented the doctrine plus His divine authority to back it up, and the Jews quarreled among themselves about it, and many stopped following Jesus at that time. Jesus asks his own disciples what they are going to do, and Simon Peter answers in verses 68-69: “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

In a homily I once heard, it was pointed out that we don’t know what happened later on to those who left. Some may have reconsidered and returned on their own, or later encountered the early Christians after Jesus’s Resurrection and were convinced then and came to believe. So even if the doctrine was “too much” for them at first, maybe it wasn’t always so.

Finally, since this whole Bible chapter points to the Eucharist, that’s what I would recommend to the OP – to find an Adoration chapel and go sit quietly in front of Jesus in the Eucharist. Bring your doubts, your questions, your unrest. He can handle them. Try to quiet your mind, still your heart, and allow the Holy Spirit to fill you and bring you the peace that we as human beings can’t find on our own with all our intellect and our drivenness. Even if you come not believing, feeling the whole exercise a waste of time, what have you got to lose, and what might you possibly regain and be glad you did?