Is obedience necessary for your salvation?

[Linkowski]

I agree with just about everything you said, but does God really make us obedient? Does He, that is, compel us to be obedient? Is it even obedience if we are made to be so?

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

The elect were chosen from the foundation of the world to show forth the glory of God…

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Yes!

Obedience flows from love.

Loving God is necessary for salvation.

When God put the gift of love in our heart, then we can obey HIM!!!

LOVE RULES ALL.

LOVE is first and greatest!!!

 

[VociMike]

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

The elect were chosen from the foundation of the world to show forth the glory of God…

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So you don’t believe that obedience has any place in salvation? After all, it’s not obedience if one has no choice but to obey. I gather from your verses that you think people become robo-Christians the microsecond they are saved.

 

[Verita]

I think that most Protestants really agree with Catholics about obedience and good works (or good actions as I like to say). The problem is communication. Protestants and Catholics think about things and talk about things in radically different ways.

Many Protestants assume that obedience is automatically included in Faith, if you have the right kind of faith. So that they feel correct saying that all you need is faith since that includes obedience. This of course does not make obedience any less necessary. But protestantism strives toward making things as simple as possible.

Catholics see it as important to emphasize both especially since obedience is something that Jesus himself spoke of so much. Catholics recognize that even when you have the correct belief in God, obedience can still be very difficult.

Personally, I think the Catholic way is better. I have met people who profess to have belief in God but don’t see the necessity of living chaste lives etc. Usually their reasoning is that all they need is Faith so things like avoiding sin and confession don’t matter. This of course is not a view that protestants support, but it is the natural danger of espousing a doctrine called “Faith Alone”. Inevitably there will be those who take those words literally. For those, “Faith Alone” has become an endangerment to their souls.

 

[water]

You hit it on the head…plus when speaking with a large percentage of Catholics, they calim salvation by their ggood deeds that they do rather than on the basis of the crosswork of Christ.

This is based on your only assumption and misunderstanding of “Faith and Works” of Catholic’s belief.

We love God and that is what we should do the works. If you say you love God, yet you don’t do anything for what He has asked. This is what he is going to say to you:

whereinthebible.org/Matthew%2025:31-40

 

[water]

Catholics see it as important to emphasize both especially since obedience is something that Jesus himself spoke of so much. Catholics recognize that even when you have the correct belief in God, obedience can still be very difficult.

and congratulations on your way to be a Catholic! I checked out your profile.

 

[Truthstalker]

So you don’t believe that obedience has any place in salvation? After all, it’s not obedience if one has no choice but to obey. I gather from your verses that you think people become robo-Christians the microsecond they are saved.

Where do you get the idea that it’s not obedience if one has no choice but to obey?

They are not “his” verses. They are Bible.

Part of salvation is the gift of the will to obey God. If we were saved by our own wills, we would not be saved by faith or by grace but by our own wills, and we could boast that we did it ourselves: Pelagianism.

Are you saying that God saved all of you - except your will? That your will is still fallen? That He did not and will not replace your heart of stone with one of flesh? That David was futilely praying when he prayed “create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me…uphold me with a willing spirit.” (Ps 51:10-12)? Are you saying that the new spirit within you will freely choose sin rather than the will of God? The will of the flesh is weak, but the will of the spirit is united with His and is eternal and redeemed and new. Are you saying you are not freed from bondage to the law and you are still a slave to the law of sin even in your spirit? How can you claim then to be regenerated?

The Lord is my shepherd - His rod and staff comfort me. Those are instruments of discipline, often against my own will, that is, the will of the flesh. See also Romans 7:14-8:17 and Hebrews 12. He disciplines us as His children. I know my children hardly ever like to be disciplined, and when young, did not understand the need or the method. Very definitely against their wills at times.

We have free will, freed to choose to follow God, as a gift of grace. What kind of a freedom is it if it is free to take us back into the slavery of sin? What kind of a gift would it be from God if it led us to eternal death? No loving father gives a small child a viper as a present; God loves us and gives good gifts to His children.

The Catholic Catechism is very unclear on this issue.

 

[Linkowski]

So you don’t believe that obedience has any place in salvation? After all, it’s not obedience if one has no choice but to obey. I gather from your verses that you think people become robo-Christians the microsecond they are saved.

My will has been aligned with God’s will and He causes me to walk in His way. This whole concept is not out of character in scripture…

Jeremiah 32:40 NAS95 40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and** I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.**

I want His will - not mine.

 

[Linkowski]

This is based on your only assumption and misunderstanding of “Faith and Works” of Catholic’s belief.

We love God and that is what we should do the works. If you say you love God, yet you don’t do anything for what He has asked. This is what he is going to say to you:

whereinthebible.org/Matthew%2025:31-40

When the question is asked to Catholics, “On what basis are you going to heaven”…this is what I get each time:

I am good, I keep the commandments, I do this and I do that…they are boasting of their own good.

You ask me and I will claim the crosswork of Christ as my only means to salvation. My boasting is of Christ.

Romans 10:3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 

[VociMike]

Where do you get the idea that it’s not obedience if one has no choice but to obey?

Why would God tell us again and again to obey if, by being saved, we had no choice but to obey? Forced obedience is no obedience at all, but compulsion. So the question is, does God compel us to follow His will, or does He rather enable us and strengthen us to follow His will?

They are not “his” verses. They are Bible.

No, they are selected verses he picked out of the bible to argue a point. Not exactly the same thing.

Part of salvation is the gift of the will to obey God. If we were saved by our own wills, we would not be saved by faith or by grace but by our own wills, and we could boast that we did it ourselves: Pelagianism.

Nobody is arguing that we do it all ourselves, but many Protestants end up arguing that God does it all Himself. Both arguments are wrong.

 

[VociMike]

My will has been aligned with God’s will and He causes me to walk in His way. This whole concept is not out of character in scripture…

You say He causes you. Does that mean He forces you, or that He guides and strengthens you? Do you have any choice in the matter? Can you disobey, or does God make it impossible?

 

[pablo_rafael]

This seems to me a LAW \ GOSPEL question.

Let me rephrase the question. I will ask: Does our salvation depend on what we do; is it because of our own merit?

GOSPEL:
The simple answer as I see it is NO. Our savior’s death on the cross wipes out our sins. "For by GRACE you are saved through FAITH; it is not from yourselves but is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 We cannot add to the redeeming work of Christ.

I will rephrase the question again: As Christians do we have to show obedience to God?

LAW:
The answer is YES. As forgiven children of God we are in His family and serve Him out of love. “I will show my faith by what I do.” James 2: 18 A person cannot be saved and love the savior without putting it into practice.

An analogy: I did nothing to be born into my family; it was the choice of my parents. Do I have a role in my family to love and obey? You bet I do. I don’t do it because they will kick me out of the family if I don’t measure up. I do it because they have shown love to me, and I want to respond.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

 

[Linkowski]

You say He causes you. Does that mean He forces you, or that He guides and strengthens you? Do you have any choice in the matter? Can you disobey, or does God make it impossible?

Ezekiel 36:26-27 KJV 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don’t want my will…

 

[water]

I don’t want my will…

In other word, obey.

 

[VociMike]

Ezekiel 36:26-27 KJV 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don’t want my will…

So then you are arguing that the instant a person is saved they become a robo-Christian, incapable of either obeying or disobeying, but simply being pushed by God throughout the rest of his/her life. Is that a common view?

Interestingly, by using an OT verse to support your argument, you are also arguing that the Jews became robo-Jews as well, even without being saved. They walk in God’s statutes and what, go to heaven as Jews, or go to hell for not being Christians? I wonder how many Jews would accept that understanding.

 

[Truthstalker]

So then you are arguing that the instant a person is saved they become a robo-Christian, incapable of either obeying or disobeying, but simply being pushed by God throughout the rest of his/her life.

What an oversimplification. God raises children, not chimpanzees, kids into adulthood, not slaves for the market, heirs of the kingdom, not something less than human, calls us out of darkness into light, out of poverty into riches, from despair and lack of hope into certainty in him, from sickness into health, from narrow-mindedess to a vision of Himself, from death to life, from isolation into community, from slaves of sin to sonship.

God being infinite, and sin finite, there is therefore more room of will in God. There is more freedom in the will of God than in the will of man, and God sets our wills free to follow Him. It is in sin there is slavery, and it is only in surrendering ourselves to Christ that there is freedom.

“Robo-Christian”. What a detestable oxymoron.

 

[VociMike]

What an oversimplification.

Well, when somebody quotes “And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” without any commentary, I assume he’s making a simple statement.

God raises children, not chimpanzees, kids into adulthood, not slaves for the market, heirs of the kingdom, not something less than human, calls us out of darkness into light, out of poverty into riches, from despair and lack of hope into certainty in him, from sickness into health, from narrow-mindedess to a vision of Himself, from death to life, from isolation into community, from slaves of sin to sonship.

God being infinite, and sin finite, there is therefore more room of will in God. There is more freedom in the will of God than in the will of man, and God sets our wills free to follow Him. It is in sin there is slavery, and it is only in surrendering ourselves to Christ that there is freedom.

I am happy to assent to all of this.

“Robo-Christian”. What a detestable oxymoron.

There’s nothing detestable in trying to summarize my understanding of the rather inscrutable comments of another. Even you talked about how God “makes us obedient”. What does that mean? I asked and didn’t get an answer.

I’m not the one who argues, as I have seen other Protestants argue, that e.g. once saved they cannot sin. I’m glad that neither of us agrees that God turns believers into robo-Christians. But for those who seem to argue that once saved they have no option but to walk in God’s statues, the term should at least elicit from them a clarification of their position.

 

[Alexius]

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Of course God works in us. but we are the ones who perform the works. We are active participants in our salvation, equipped with the grace of God. That is the difference between the inactive and distorted grace of monergism and the active and true grace of synergism…

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You must remember Genesis. We are created in God’s image to do good works. That is God’s plan from the beginning of time. In Christ, we are fully equipped to do these works, by God’s grace…

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

“He who perseveres to the end will be saved,” Paul also says…May seem to compliment, but Christ abides in us IF we abide in him. Many do not…

2Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

I don’t know the context of this verse, but I think it is pretty straight forward: We are insuffient beings without God!!!

The elect were chosen from the foundation of the world to show forth the glory of God…

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I cannot even begin to accurately explain the foreknowledge of God, nor can any human being for that matter. How can we even begin to grasp that which is outside of time and space, that which is in God’s mind…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Mintaka]

Re: “On what basis are you going to Heaven?”

Assuming these people know you’re a Christian, they assume you know all about Christ’s role in salvation already. Why the heck would they insult you by repeating reasons you already know?

The most uncomfortable thing is that you are tempting them to presumption about their eternal fate. We can legitimately have hope – tons of hope. But God is our judge, not us; and it’s rude and presumptuous to say, “Oh, yeah, Jesus is sending me to Heaven.” We don’t know the future. We can hope and intend that we won’t turn away from God and choose Hell, but we don’t know that for sure until we’ve persevered to the end.

Beyond that, asking personal questions is just plain rude.

Of course nobody is going to slap your face for it, since you’re asking in a Christian context. But since you don’t have to worry about such a defense, that just makes such questions even more rude.

 

[guanophore]

So when Protestants speak of “salvation by works” they are simply using the wrong words?

Oh, BTW, I’ve never heard a single Catholic who claimed they are saved by their good deeds, and yet you claim that “a large percentage” of Catholics make exactly that claim. How do you explain such a vast discrepancy?

I think many Catholics have not studied and do not understand their faith very well. They go through the motions because they are “supposed to” but they are often devoid of life. “A form of godliness without the power thereof”. I grew up that way myself! I think it is a rampant belief in American Catholicism. In any case, Catholics would not, as a rule “claim they are saved” by anything, because they don’t think about salvation in the same way that Protestants do.