Is Orthodox Christianity seen as a place where the Catholic & Protestant Churches could possibly reunite?

[Tomdstone]

I thought this was more of a traditional custom than a matter of doctrinal dispute.

And ye shall not shave your head for the dead [a pagan practice] with a baldness on the top; and they shall not shave their beard… (Lev. 21:5),
a razor shall not come upon his head, until the days be fulfilled which he vowed to the Lord: he shall be holy, cherishing the long hair of the head all the days of his vow to the Lord… (Numbers 6:5-6).
However, the Roman Catholic Cardinal Humbertus pronounced anathema on Michael Cerularius saying in 1054: “While wearing beards and long hair you [Eastern Orthodox] reject the bond of brotherhood with the Roman clergy, since they shave and cut their hair.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

No what’s actually ironic is that you think that’s what the argument is about.

I think its about many points to be discussed. Including most importantly the operation of your Church. And yes it is ironic we have those who would come here and critique the CC and usually incorrectly, and you have, well. an unhistoric model and one which claims

primacy is something real within the Orthodox Church, and it implies real authority and responsibility of the first Church

The most divisive issues on the Orthodox agenda relate to the relations between the local Churches. The models of these relations are constantly evolving, reflecting global political frameworks. Understandings of the fellowship of the Orthodox Churches changes constantly, and there is no agreement on it. Some Churches consider this fellowship in terms of an utilitarian cooperation of sovereign entities, which safeguard their territorial integrity and punish any intruder, including another local Church. This philosophy reflects the logic of international law and, particularly, the idea of sovereignty of the national states. Other Churches believe the pan-Orthodox fellowship should be regarded as a confederation (or even a federation) of local Churches, with an effective and not just ritual Primus. The upcoming council could help in moving to an acceptance of a single philosophy of the Orthodox fellowship, although that is unlikely.

Two particular points of this philosophy were chosen decades ago for the agenda of the Pan-Orthodox council: the diptychs (the order) of the Churches, and the procedure of granting autocephaly (which means, literally, “self-headed”). Since it very unlikely the Churches could reach an agreement on both issues they were excluded from the agenda of the council. The issue of granting autocephaly has an immediate implication in Ukraine. The Synaxis dedicated a disappointingly laconic text to the situation in Ukraine:

According to the other perspective, primacy is something real within the Orthodox Church, and it implies real authority and responsibility of the first Church. According to Metropolitan Elpidophoros of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, who responded to the document of the Russian Orthodox Church, the first Church, in its primacy, has no equals among the other Churches.

The two interpretations of primacy seem to be irreconcilable. And it is very unlikely that the Pan-Orthodox council can accept a single Orthodox interpretation of Primacy

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicworldreport.com%2FItem%2F3001%2Fthe_fragile_promise_of_the_panorthodox_council.aspx&ei=pOt2VNrLCMqmNvqbgfAK&usg=AFQjCNF_WGobCTTGaX5zA0QpXqtnW30Nww

 

[Seraphim73]

I think its about many points to be discussed. Including most importantly the operation of your Church. And yes it is ironic we have those who would come here and critique the CC and usually incorrectly, and you have, well. an unhistoric model and one which claims

Yes the biggest fight we have now is what order the primates are to be commemorated in and how autocephaly is granted. Compared to what has been going on in other communities, including the Catholic Church since Vatican II, it seems extremely small.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes the biggest fight we have now is what order the primates are to be commemorated in and how autocephaly is granted. Compared to what has been going on in other communities, including the Catholic Church since Vatican II, it seems extremely small.

I have much hope and faith in you guys. As to the unity, 50 years compared to 1000 with no dialogue, we are moving along, I’m a firm believer in prayer and the Lord. What we can’t do He will.

 

[Tomdstone]

And some of your numerous items are just busybodying. I mean…beards???
.

If beards are just busybodying, then why did the Roman Catholic authorities and papal legates make such a big deal about beards and cite the wearing of a beard by Eastern Patriarch Michael Cerularius as a reason to excommunicate him in 1054?

 

[GEddie]

If beards are just busybodying, then why did the Roman Catholic authorities and papal legates make such a big deal about beards and cite the wearing of a beard by Eastern Patriarch Michael Cerularius as a reason to excommunicate him in 1054?

So if busybodying from one side had a role in causing the split 960 years ago, more busybodying from the other side would be the way to close it? IDTS!!!

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Tomdstone]

So if busybodying from one side had a role in causing the split 960 years ago, more busybodying from the other side would be the way to close it? IDTS!!!

ICXC NIKA.

Roman Catholics were the ones who started making such a big deal about beards and excommunicating clergy who wore them.

 

[boar2roar]

Yes the biggest fight we have now is what order the primates are to be commemorated in and how autocephaly is granted. Compared to what has been going on in other communities, including the Catholic Church since Vatican II, it seems extremely small.

The only reason you guys fight less is because you already basically became a confederate union of independent churches. Its not something to be proud of when you fight over even petty things like this even when the churches have no power over the other. There would be real fireworks if the orthodox had a more unified structure.

 

[GEddie]

Roman Catholics were the ones who started making such a big deal about beards and excommunicating clergy who wore them.

Point taken.

But doing the same thing in the reverse direction is not going to bring the two sides together.

ICXC NIKA

 

[boar2roar]

The Catholic Popes have called for the restoration of full communion with the Eastern Orthodox, but if Catholics don’t want to make any small adjustments in the interest of unity, then what?

Why do catholics need to be the ones making all the adjustments? The pope isn’t the one snubbing and acting like an hostile fool (patriarch of Moscow) because of some western conspiracy or jealousy or something.

 

[GEddie]

Why do catholics need to be the ones making all the adjustments? The pope isn’t the one snubbing and acting like an aggressive fool (patriarch of Moscow) because of some western conspiracy or jealousy or something.

Do both sides even agree that union in some sense would be desirable?

Or is this whole issue just another “at the end of time” hope item?

ICXC NIKA.

 

[boar2roar]

Do both sides even agree that union in some sense would be desirable?

Or is this whole issue just another “at the end of time” hope item?

ICXC NIKA.

Mainly end of time. Certain parts of the orthodox church will refuse to budge no matter what Rome does.

 

[Seraphim73]

Mainly end of time. Certain parts of the orthodox church will refuse to budge no matter what Rome does.

Where is the Catholic Church willing to budge?

 

[boar2roar]

Where is the Catholic Church willing to budge?

Before anybody does some budging the Russian and Romanian orthodox churches need to stop thinking that being seen talking with a catholic is a great controversy and a sign of selling out.

 

[Seraphim73]

Before anybody does some budging the Russian and Romanian orthodox churches need to stop thinking that being seen talking with a catholic is a great controversy and a sign of selling out.

Would you like to answer my question?

 

[Tomdstone]

Before anybody does some budging the Russian and Romanian orthodox churches need to stop thinking that being seen talking with a catholic is a great controversy and a sign of selling out.

That has not been my experience. I spoke with a Romanian Orthodox priest and he said that I was welcome in his Church at any time.

 

[Tomdstone]

Where is the Catholic Church willing to budge?

I believe that the Catholic Church is willing to budge on the issue of whether or not it will allow Orthodox priests to wear beards. Previously, the Catholic papal legate Humbertus excommunicated Michael Cerularius in 1054, citing that he wore a beard (among other issues).

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Why do catholics need to be the ones making all the adjustments? The pope isn’t the one snubbing and acting like an hostile fool (patriarch of Moscow) because of some western conspiracy or jealousy or something.

 

[prodromos]

Why do catholics need to be the ones making all the adjustments?

Because they are the ones who have made many adjustments away from the faith once held in common. I was reading a thread in Traditional Catholicism a few days ago and discovered that a Catholic priest can celebrate Mass several times a day at the same altar. I’ve also learned that a priest can celebrate a private mass on his own.

All these are huge changes.

In the Orthodox Church, a priest cannot serve more than one liturgy per day, neither can more than one liturgy be served on the same altar in one day. It is also not possible for a priest to serve the liturgy unless he is accompanied by at least one other person.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We don’t see it that way, in fact we see the Orthodox with their own set of issues which need to be resolved resulting from a 1000 separation of the faith always held in common.

Communion with Rome isn’t suggested, its required and that is the faith always held in common.

In other words the primacy of Rome and the petrine model is the standard, and in relation as per the pan council of 2015 the E-Orthodox need to resolve their understanding in their own community before in all reality fruitful dialogue with Rome can proceed.