Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

[JD27076]

Considering the filoque, posted a recent thread, and that the Orthodox Church has 4 Apostolic Patriarchs, and the Catholic Church has only 1, the Roman Pontiff.

I know I shouild not be getting sucked into stuff like this, but I wan’t clarification please.

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Is the Catholic Church only 1000 years old?
How isn’t the OC not true? When was it established?
All the important questions…

Thanks
-Justin.

Also, a side question. Was Pope Shenouda III(God rest his soul) a real pope with infallible edicts such as the Roman Pontiff?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Considering the filoque, posted a recent thread, and that the Orthodox Church has 4 Apostolic Patriarchs, and the Catholic Church has only 1, the Roman Pontiff.

I know I shouild not be getting sucked into stuff like this, but I wan’t clarification please.

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Is the Catholic Church only 1000 years old?
How isn’t the OC not true? When was it established?
All the important questions…

Thanks
-Justin.

Also, a side question. Was Pope Shenouda III(God rest his soul) a real pope with infallible edicts such as the Roman Pontiff?

The Roman Pontiff is not and Apostolic Patriarch.
He is the Pope.
All the others, if they want to come into the RCC, must obey the Pope.
The RCC is 2000 years old.
The RCC is the only true Church.
Last question’s answer: No.

 

[clmowry]

There can only be one successor to St. Peter. He happened to end his days in Rome and it is therefore this bishopric that his successors occupy.

Chuck

 

[The_Scott]

Also, a side question. Was Pope Shenouda III(God rest his soul) a real pope with infallible edicts such as the Roman Pontiff?

When you hear the word “pope” used for an Orthodox leader, it is synonymous with the term “Patriarch.” He isn’t any more powerful than any of the other patriarchs in the Orthodox Church; he just has a different title. That’s all.

 

[Nine_Two]

Considering the filoque, posted a recent thread, and that the Orthodox Church has 4 Apostolic Patriarchs, and the Catholic Church has only 1, the Roman Pontiff.

I know I shouild not be getting sucked into stuff like this, but I wan’t clarification please.

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Is the Catholic Church only 1000 years old?
How isn’t the OC not true? When was it established?
All the important questions…

Thanks
-Justin.

Also, a side question. Was Pope Shenouda III(God rest his soul) a real pope with infallible edicts such as the Roman Pontiff?

Within Orthodox Christianity all Bishops are seen as the successors of all the Apostles. The Patriarchs sit on Apostolic Sees, but themselves owe their succession to no greater a source than any other bishop.

Regarding the title of Pope. Neither the Copts nor us interpret the title as a supreme priest, as Catholics do. The use of the title for the Alexandrian Patriarch predates its usage by Rome, and therefore if legitimate claim is to be made on the title for only one church it surely belongs with Alexandria. Certainly he was a real pope, he just didn’t claim the same things the Roman Catholic pope does.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Within Orthodox Christianity all Bishops are seen as the successors of all the Apostles. The Patriarchs sit on Apostolic Sees, but themselves owe their succession to no greater a source than any other bishop.

Regarding the title of Pope. Neither the Copts nor us interpret the title as a supreme priest, as Catholics do. The use of the title for the Alexandrian Patriarch predates its usage by Rome, and therefore if legitimate claim is to be made on the title for only one church it surely belongs with Alexandria. Certainly he was a real pope, he just didn’t claim the same things the Roman Catholic pope does.

How many different Orthodox Churches are there? Also what are the churches that used to be Orthodox but came back to the Catholic Church but still retain their own liturgies?

 

[Nine_Two]

How many different Orthodox Churches are there? Also what are the churches that used to be Orthodox but came back to the Catholic Church but still retain their own liturgies?

There are 15 Churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion. I believe there are seven in the Oriental Orthodox Communion, but I could be wrong on that.
There is not a single case of an Orthodox Church moving to Catholicism. Only splinter groups. I believe there are 22 or something along those lines.

 

[Mickey]

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church?

Yes.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

Stay Catholic. It is the true Church. Look up the miracles of the Catholic Church. Then add logic. Sum=Catholics are right.
Read this
And please, no one shoot me down this time (if you read the other posts where I linked to this blog, you know what I’m speaking of).

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Note from Moderator:

The topic of this thread is an apologetic response from Catholics to the Orthodox claims the poster saw elsewhere. Please keep this thread on-topic.

The focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church’s Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator

 

[DavidFilmer]

How isn’t the OC not true? When was it established?

Like the Church at Rome, the Orthodox Church was established in the Apostolic era. Rome was the center of the western Church (which includes much of north Africa). Many Western churches were established by missionaries from Rome. Thus, many Western churches “originated” from Rome.

The Eastern Churches were not established by Roman missionaries - they were established independent of Rome.

To Latin Catholics, this does not matter. The temporal authority of the Church on earth is established by Jesus, not by the nationality of the guy who first established Christianity in a particular region. And Latin Catholics see clear Biblical and ECF evidence that Jesus vested ultimate temporal authority in the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Vico]

Considering the filoque, posted a recent thread, and that the Orthodox Church has 4 Apostolic Patriarchs, and the Catholic Church has only 1, the Roman Pontiff.

I know I shouild not be getting sucked into stuff like this, but I wan’t clarification please.

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Is the Catholic Church only 1000 years old?
How isn’t the OC not true? When was it established?
All the important questions…

Thanks
-Justin.

Also, a side question. Was Pope Shenouda III(God rest his soul) a real pope with infallible edicts such as the Roman Pontiff?

Q4. Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term “Church” in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?
A4. The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. “Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all – because of the apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds”[13], they merit the title of “particular or local Churches”[14], and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

“It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”.[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]

On the other hand, because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history.[18]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

Before the major Council of Chalcedon all of the original sees established by the apostles where united.

These include Eastern Orthadox and Oriental orthadox.

At this point of Christianity the Nicean-Constantinople creed marked the church with 4 attributes. That being

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

There is only 1 Church that has these 4 marks and that is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the One holy catholic and Apostolic Church.

One - The Church is one church, it is united both through theology and heirarchy. The eastern orthadox churchs aren’t united through heirarchy OR theology. Although they are all “in communion” with each other, their respective patriarchs often disagree on theological issues and don’t recognise certain eparchy for eg the Greek Orthadox eparchy in the USA. The Easter Orthadox Church is NOT one. Therefor in can’t be the One True Church Established by Christ. The Catholic Church on the other hand is, Patriarchs of the Easter Catholic Churches even if they have their own Canon Laws are still united with Rome through Theology AND hierarchy.

Holy - The Church must be Holy. It MUST respect, make available and uphold the Sacraments as placed by Our Lord Jesus Christ himself. The Catholic Church does this and to be fair so do the Orthadox Churches.

Catholic - The Church must be established by our Lord for the salvation of ALL Souls, it is a universal church for ALL men. Not only the Greek or the Russian or the Coptic ethnicities. Although it is harder to disprove that the Orthadox church is not Catholic. One can only look at history and observe that although the Greek Orthadox initially was richer and had more resources than Rome, it did NOT evangelise the same way the Catholic Church did. The Catholic Church is Universal and continues to evangelise while the Orthadox do not see evangelisation as their mission anymore.

Apostolic - The Church must be headed by a valid Apostle or (Bishop) in modern-day language. Both the Orthadox and the Catholic church have this. However there are only 2 churches that claim the seat of St Peter and that is the Catholic Chuch and the Syriac Orthadox Church. The Syriac Orthadox Church’s claim is invalid has it equals the seat of saint peter to that of St Mark in alexandria (this is fundamentally incorrect) as Christ entrusted his Church to St Peter to be his vicor not a person who is “First among equals”.

Christ build his church on himself as the unshakeable rock that evil can’t triumph over he gave Saint Peter the keys to heaven. It is the Church that St Peter is head of that will be the only way to heaven (as symbolised by the keys), there is no other way to heaven apart from the VISIBLE institution that St Peter himself was made the head of.

[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

[adoglover1956]

Before the major Council of Chalcedon all of the original sees established by the apostles where united.

These include Eastern Orthadox and Oriental orthadox.

At this point of Christianity the Nicean-Constantinople creed marked the church with 4 attributes. That being

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

There is only 1 Church that has these 4 marks and that is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the One holy catholic and Apostolic Church.

One - The Church is one church, it is united both through theology and heirarchy. The eastern orthadox churchs aren’t united through heirarchy OR theology. Although they are all “in communion” with each other, their respective patriarchs often disagree on theological issues and don’t recognise certain eparchy for eg the Greek Orthadox eparchy in the USA. The Easter Orthadox Church is NOT one. Therefor in can’t be the One True Church Established by Christ. The Catholic Church on the other hand is, Patriarchs of the Easter Catholic Churches even if they have their own Canon Laws are still united with Rome through Theology AND hierarchy.

Holy - The Church must be Holy. It MUST respect, make available and uphold the Sacraments as placed by Our Lord Jesus Christ himself. The Catholic Church does this and to be fair so do the Orthadox Churches.

Catholic - The Church must be established by our Lord for the salvation of ALL Souls, it is a universal church for ALL men. Not only the Greek or the Russian or the Coptic ethnicities. Although it is harder to disprove that the Orthadox church is not Catholic. One can only look at history and observe that although the Greek Orthadox initially was richer and had more resources than Rome, it did NOT evangelise the same way the Catholic Church did. The Catholic Church is Universal and continues to evangelise while the Orthadox do not see evangelisation as their mission anymore.

Apostolic - The Church must be headed by a valid Apostle or (Bishop) in modern-day language. Both the Orthadox and the Catholic church have this. However there are only 2 churches that claim the seat of St Peter and that is the Catholic Chuch and the Syriac Orthadox Church. The Syriac Orthadox Church’s claim is invalid has it equals the seat of saint peter to that of St Mark in alexandria (this is fundamentally incorrect) as Christ entrusted his Church to St Peter to be his vicor not a person who is “First among equals”.

Christ build his church on himself as the unshakeable rock that evil can’t triumph over he gave Saint Peter the keys to heaven. It is the Church that St Peter is head of that will be the only way to heaven (as symbolised by the keys), there is no other way to heaven apart from the VISIBLE institution that St Peter himself was made the head of.

[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

I’m Catholic but there is a lot to disagree with here. BTW…do you mean Orthodox?

 

[Luvtosew]

I’m Catholic but there is a lot to disagree with here. BTW…do you mean Orthodox?

I’m Catholic too and I agree with you.

 

[smad0142]

Well to find the true Church of Christ, it must have all the elements the Early Church had.

The Early Church clearly had St. Peter as the head of the Apostles, even if the some people may have disputed the extent of his authority as the leader. Nonetheless the Catholic Church continues to have this same structure, i.e. the Petrine Leader in communion with all the other Bishops in the world. The Orthodox simply have Bishops, no Pertine Leader. And patriarchates should not be a defining metric for determing if a church is the True Church, because patriarchates were established centuries after Christ founded as Church as an administrative, not a sacramental, reality.

Also if you are wondering how the Petrine role was understood centuries before the Schism, read the Formula of Hormisdias. It is very short, and very illuminating.

 

[adoglover1956]

Well to find the true Church of Christ, it must have all the elements the Early Church had.

The Early Church clearly had St. Peter as the head of the Apostles, even if the some people may have disputed the extent of his authority as the leader. Nonetheless the Catholic Church continues to have this same structure, i.e. the Petrine Leader in communion with all the other Bishops in the world. The Orthodox simply have Bishops, no Pertine Leader. And patriarchates should not be a defining metric for determing if a church is the True Church, because patriarchates were established centuries after Christ founded as Church as an administrative, not a sacramental, reality.

Also if you are wondering how the Petrine role was understood centuries before the Schism, read the Formula of Hormisdias. It is very short, and very illuminating.

I read it. It basically comes down to a period in history where people were having a party excommunicating each other. In some cases it was religious…in some cases it was self importance…and in some cases it was political.

But…I think we risk violating the purpose of this part of the forum which is to discuss Western and Eastern Catholicism. So…rather than be suspended or banned I will bow out.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

But…I think we risk violating the purpose of this part of the forum which is to discuss Western and Eastern Catholicism. So…rather than be suspended or banned I will bow out.

This thread was posted in the Apologetics forum. The moderator of that forum thought a more thorough response to the original post would be available on the Eastern Catholicism forum and moved the thread here.

If it is on-topic to the original post, it may be posted here.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Well to find the true Church of Christ, it must have all the elements the Early Church had.

The Early Church clearly had St. Peter as the head of the Apostles, even if the some people may have disputed the extent of his authority as the leader. Nonetheless the Catholic Church continues to have this same structure, i.e. the Petrine Leader in communion with all the other Bishops in the world. The Orthodox simply have Bishops, no Pertine Leader. And patriarchates should not be a defining metric for determing if a church is the True Church, because patriarchates were established centuries after Christ founded as Church as an administrative, not a sacramental, reality.

Also if you are wondering how the Petrine role was understood centuries before the Schism, read the Formula of Hormisdias. It is very short, and very illuminating.

The pope himself is a Patriarch. Just one that happened to be very special in the early Church. He was the first of the patriarchs. How far his power and actual influence went I do not know.

Also if you are wondering how the Petrine role was understood centuries before the Schism, read the Formula of Hormisdias. It is very short, and very illuminating.

Well, Hormisdas was a Pope himself, of course he wrote in support of his own position

 

[John_of_Patmos]

The pope himself is a Patriarch. Just one that happened to be very special in the early Church. He was the first of the patriarchs. How far his power and actual influence went I do not know.

Well, Hormisdas was a Pope himself, of course he wrote in support of his own position

The most important part of smad’s post was that the True Church must have the successor to Peter.
In Christ, John of Patmos.