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samiam1611
Guest
I agree with that.
When knowledge on certain subjects cannot be obtained, spirituality often fills in the gaps. (for some people)
Is our Brain Pre-Wired to Believe in G-d?
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When knowledge on certain subjects cannot be obtained, spirituality often fills in the gaps. (for some people)
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atheistgirl
Guest
When things feel like theyre getting on top of me - know what I do - I look at the horses - I look into their eyes and watch their movements and look at how happy they are gamboling and galloping and playing - and suddenly, no matter what it is that’s on top of me - it falls away. Without fail, I will realise where Ive made things harder for myself by looking at their natural living and simplicity, and I’l ride back and all will be well again
Sarah x
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
meltzerboy
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(BTW, Judaism does not believe in original sin.) **
Not true. It believes in the sin of Adam and Eve, since it tells us they were the first to sin. If the Jews did not believe in original sin, why did the Jew John the Baptist preach baptism? What were we to be cleansed of? Why did Jesus, another Jew, preach baptism?
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(BTW, Judaism does not believe in original sin.) **
Not true. It believes in the sin of Adam and Eve, since it tells us they were the first to sin. If the Jews did not believe in original sin, why did the Jew John the Baptist preach baptism? What were we to be cleansed of? Why did Jesus, another Jew, preach baptism?
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Another reason to believe we are nobler than dogs and should aspire to be happier than dogs:
“Man is a reed, the weakest in nature, but he is a thinking reed…. Even if the universe should crush him, man would still be nobler than that which kills him, because he knows he dies; and he knows the advantage the universe has over him…. All our dignity, then, resides in thought.” Blaise Pascal
“Man is a reed, the weakest in nature, but he is a thinking reed…. Even if the universe should crush him, man would still be nobler than that which kills him, because he knows he dies; and he knows the advantage the universe has over him…. All our dignity, then, resides in thought.” Blaise Pascal
meltzerboy
New member
Not fair, Charlemagne! You know Pascal is my weakness: “L’homme est un roseau, le plus faible de la nature, mais c’est un roseau pensant.” The man is not only a great philosopher, but a great poet. Interestingly, Camus, in his very different way, believes the same thing. For him, although the universe may be absurd, WE are not absurd and do not let the universe crush us.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
**For him, although the universe may be absurd, WE are not absurd and do not let the universe crush us. **
Ah, but Camus was crushed under his car.
Est cela pas l’ironie absurde?
Ah, but Camus was crushed under his car.
Est cela pas l’ironie absurde?
meltzerboy
New member
Wow, Charlemagne, you have opened Pandora’s box! The Torah does not speak of original sin. Just the opposite: the Torah repeatedly informs mankind that it can gain G-d’s redemption by following His commandments. In fact, Moses (in Deuteronomy) explicitly cautions against those who might say that man is a slave to sin and that salvation cannot be achieved by means of the individual’s adherence to the commandments of the Law. In other words, atonement for sin is based on EACH individual’s efforts. The basis of Christianity is quite the opposite, namely, that Jesus came to redeem ALL of mankind for the original sin of Adam, who brought death into the world. But the disobedience of Adam in Genesis, when he eats of the Tree of Life, tells us that he was not born to be immortal to begin with. The word “sin” does not even appear in the Bible until Cain’s slaying of Abel. According to Judaism, man’s death is regarded as part of the Creation at the start, and not due to man’s disobedience toward G-d. The salvation of each person is enabled by means of obedience to G-d’s Word as inscribed by Moses, which is in effect the person’s expression of his love of G-d and his neighbor. That, my friend, is the Jewish perspective. And that is also part of the reason why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.
meltzerboy
New member
'Tis strange, 'tis passing strange…Good point!**For him, although the universe may be absurd, WE are not absurd and do not let the universe crush us. **
Ah, but Camus was crushed under his car.
Est cela pas l’ironie absurde?
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Windfish
Guest
So modern day Jews are Pelgians. Interesting. Drs. Bergsma and Pitre are PhDs in ancient Judaism, and what you’ve written does not sound very Jewish according to them.
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valentino
Guest
Metzerboy: I’ve found Judiasm beautiful especially in their religious rituals.When Jessus speaks of the prophets being persecuted I assume you agree with this.why were the prophets persecuted in opinion?
meltzerboy
New member
Well, we are much closer to Pelagianism than to Saint Augustine. Dr. Bergsma may be a PhD in ancient Judaism, but his research is according to the Catholic perspective and influenced by his Calvinist roots to boot!So modern day Jews are Pelgians. Interesting. Drs. Bergsma and Pitre are PhDs in ancient Judaism, and what you’ve written does not sound very Jewish according to them.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
But the Tree of Life wasn’t forbidden. Only the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil was forbidden. Adam and Eve lost access to the tree of life (and presumably to immortality) when we were expelled from the garden. Isn’t that how the story goes in the Torah?
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
meltzerboy
As to the matter of original sin, Genesis documents it and Genesis is a Jewish book. As to whether original sin was inherited as guilt, there can be no doubt, since the whole human race suffered the consequences of that sin, which was the loss of innocence, not to mention the Garden of Eden.
You can’t dismiss the sin of Adam and Eve (disobedience) by saying the word “sin” is not even used until Cain killed Abel.
That the Jews at the time of Jesus expected another Messiah than Jesus there can be no doubt. However, since virtually all of the early Christians were Jews, it cannot be said that at least the Jews who knew him well did not recognize in the command to baptize a need to have the guilt of original washed away by the waters of baptism.
As to the matter of original sin, Genesis documents it and Genesis is a Jewish book. As to whether original sin was inherited as guilt, there can be no doubt, since the whole human race suffered the consequences of that sin, which was the loss of innocence, not to mention the Garden of Eden.
You can’t dismiss the sin of Adam and Eve (disobedience) by saying the word “sin” is not even used until Cain killed Abel.
That the Jews at the time of Jesus expected another Messiah than Jesus there can be no doubt. However, since virtually all of the early Christians were Jews, it cannot be said that at least the Jews who knew him well did not recognize in the command to baptize a need to have the guilt of original washed away by the waters of baptism.
meltzerboy
New member
You’ve touched on a very complex issue, on which much ink has been spilled. There are several interpretations regarding the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They are discussed in the Kabbalah, for example, and both Jewish and Christian scholars have poured over their possible meanings. It has even been suggested that they are not separate trees, but one tree: that is, the Tree of Life is contained within the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. To make the whole issue more complex, there is in pagan mythology relative to Osiris, mention of the Tree of Life as well. A discussion of all the various interpretations is beyond the scope of this thread and, frankly, I am far from an authority on the topic. I do know, however, that the Jewish understanding of Adam’s disobedience to G-d is not marked by original sin as there are corroborating scriptural passages in the OT that point in the opposite direction.
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Charlemagne_II
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meltzerboy
**I do know, however, that the Jewish understanding of Adam’s disobedience to G-d is not marked by original sin as there are corroborating scriptural passages in the OT that point in the opposite direction. **
Am I getting confused here? Is there another sin than the one of Adam and Eve that preceded theirs? Where is that documented?
**I do know, however, that the Jewish understanding of Adam’s disobedience to G-d is not marked by original sin as there are corroborating scriptural passages in the OT that point in the opposite direction. **
Am I getting confused here? Is there another sin than the one of Adam and Eve that preceded theirs? Where is that documented?
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
That’s really intersesting. So what is the Jewish interpretation of being expelled from the Garden? Are there not real consequences that we suffer from today as a result of being expelled from Eden, that are a result of Adam’s sin?
meltzerboy
New member
Judaism does not believe that the sin of Adam was carried by the rest of humanity until that humanity was redeemed by a suffering servant (Jesus) who was the Messiah and, in a sense, the “new Adam.” That is not the Jewish conception of the Messiah (and that topic is for another thread!). Even Christians never say that people will not commit sin again once they accept Jesus as their Savior, but rather that now they have a means of atoning for their sins through Jesus. The Jews believe that every individual has ALWAYS had a means of atoning for their sins, namely through prayer to G-d the Father and through good deeds toward their fellow men: faith and works, as in Catholicism. (Indeed, prayer to G-d alone is insufficient on the Day of Atonement. Only sins committed directly against G-d can be atoned for by praying to G-d; however sins committed toward one’s fellow men must be atoned for by asking forgiveness of them directly.) Judaism does not view man as incapable of atonement without a Redeemer (despite man’s good intentions) because man is too depraved. For Jews, man is not a depraved being (the idea of which some Jews would consider insulting to G-d, who created that being) and does not, left to his own devices, become a slave to sin. These are Christian ideas, necessary to support the internal logic of the faith, that the Coming of Jesus as the Redeemer changes the inner nature of man if he believes in Jesus. That’s my understanding of Christianity (from the outside); please correct me if I got it wrong. However, Judaism still says man needs G-d to lead a moral life, and the Torah is regarded as the eternal Word of G-d that tells man how to lead this kind of life. Moses states that obedience to Torah Law is not far from man’s capability: it is not regarded as something man cannot possibly do because of his sinful nature. On the other hand, much of early Christianity believed the opposite: that following the Law in its multitude of requirements is impossible for man, and therefore Jesus had to die and be resurrected in order to fulfill the Law in man’s place. This notion runs counter to Jewish teaching: namely, that any other (including the Messiah) can take on himself another person’s sins. Each person is responsible for his own moral behavior (by means of following G-d and His Torah) and salvation (not as important a notion) according to Judaism.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Christians don’t say that man was created depraved. We were all created in the image of God and therefore are higher than the angels. But you are right, we believe it wasn’t possible for man to redeem himself on his own.
meltzerboy
New member
Thanks for the correction!
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4Horsemen
Guest
That’s been true for pagan religions (and others) which are dependent on the approval of a melange of deities. Pagans also believed that the forces of nature were inherent in the gods’ whims and, in some cases their deities were greedy for human sacrifice. Nowadays, true religion seeks for answers to the workings of the universe using reason. As Pope Benedict speaks, faith and reason do not have to be in conflict. We can still believe in God and explain our world through science.
“Science can purify religion from error and superstition and religion can purify science from idolotry and false absolutes.”
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