Is Our Lady of Fatima Still Relevant?

[numealinesimpet]

From Cdl. Ratzinger:

“And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the “secret” of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: “… the events to which the third part of the ‘secret’ of Fatima refers now seem part of the past”. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past. Those who expected exciting apocalyptic revelations about the end of the world or the future course of history are bound to be disappointed. Fatima does not satisfy our curiosity in this way, just as Christian faith in general cannot be reduced to an object of mere curiosity. What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the “secret”: the exhortation to prayer as the path of “salvation for souls” and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

“We carry a treasure in earthen vessels”. Among many other things, the Vatican is a bureaucracy that has been in continuous existence at least since the time of Charlemagne –*Ninth Century. They are the most skilful in the world at “spin”. Without judging their innermost motives, we need to be very, very attentive to what they actually say and what they don’t say.

Cdl Ratziner said:

First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: “… the events to which the third part of the ‘secret’ of Fatima refers now seem part of the past”.

At that point in time, Cdl Ratzinger was under the authority of Cdl Sodano, who was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF: the former Holy Office). Up until Pope Paul VI, the Head of the Holy Office was always the Pope, and the other congregations were individually directly under the Pope. Now, since the changes introduced by Paul VI, the Head of the Holy Office (CDF) is the Cdl Secretary of State, and all the other congegations are under him. The pope is administratively reduced to a figurehead. He can operate independently only by particular ways, e.g. by issuing a Motu Proprio (which is “A statement of the Pope’s intentions that carries the force of Law”). People do not realise that the Pope can’t just order something and it has to be done. There is a Canon Law, and it must be followed. If this were not so, there would always be chaos. To recognise this takes a certain maturity. The pope can change canon law, but while it is in force, the pope too must follow it – because it is The Law that says he is pope.

Now the then Cdl Ratzinger was bound under Obedience to follow the Party Line on Fatima. But even then – notice that he does not affirm that Fatima does belong to the past; only that “we must affirm with Cdl. S. that it would seem to be part of the past”. Be aware of what he has not said! Cdl Ratzinger is actually distancing himself from Cdl Sodano’s attempts to bury the real message.

But now that he is pope, we see the action either of the Grace of State as the Vicar of Christ, or his freeing from enslavement to the Secretary of State. Because Pope Benedict has done a 180 degree reversal of some of the things he said about Fatima as Cdl Ratzinger.
He had been instructed to prepare a theological commentary justifying the Sodano Line that Fatima was now over and done with. Look it up and you will probably be surprised what he says. He equates “The Immaculate Heart” (but without capitals) with every heart that truly seeks God. And he equates the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart with Our Lady’s ‘Fiat’ to Archangel Gabriel. But now, as Pope, he has spoken again of the uniqueness of Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart (with capitals) and of the Triumph, said, “May it be so!” …meaning it is still in the future.

Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past. Those who expected exciting apocalyptic revelations about the end of the world or the future course of history are bound to be disappointed.

But this contradicts what they said before. When asked why it was not released before, they said it would cause instability and maybe panic. Why on earth would the release of a ‘prophecy’ 12 years out of date have caused such a stir? And were you not one of those who read it and thought, “Is that it? Is that all there is to it?” Mother Angelica commented, “You know, I think we didn’t get the whole thing…it’s scary”.

When Antonio Socci published his book laying out the evidence that there is indeed a second document on the Third Secret that has not yet been published – and that Cdl Sodano is trying to deny it while himself letting the cat out of the bag – ***Pope Benedict wrote a personal letter to Socci thanking him for the book, and for “the sentiments that inspired it”. *** Socci writes, "These words bring comfort to me, while I’m insulted by crude accusations [in Cdl Bertone’s own book] of doing “the game of Masonry”.

 

[numealinesimpet]

If you think Pope John was a bad character who knowingly defied Our Lady how do you explain his incorrupt body which is usually associated with saintliness?

I don’t at all think he was a bad character. He was misled by the liberal philosophy and theology with which he was formed. The world is not just Goodies and Baddies (or at least, only God can see these things). Here in Ireland there has been a bitter running battle over things like education, homosexuality, abortion etc, for decades on end. Yet it is very clear to me that many of those most vehemently pushing for the things my own friends are opposing, are absolutely sincere according to their own lights. Many have chips on their choulders, but are not aware of this. And many have had truly dreadful things happen to them in the name of the Church, while never having been given proper catechesis, which colours their present judgment. We are right to fight their programme of “The Liberal Agenda”, but we have no right to judge them as bad people.

As for the pope knowingly defying Our Lady, self-deception can carry us very far. The Pope very definitely was hostile to Fatima, and instead of consecrating Russia he let the KGB into his Council. How he justified it to himself I don’t know. But he (and his predecessors and successors) were told to do a certain thing by Our Lady, who backed up her authenticity with the Miracle of the Sun, and they have not done so.

I hope it is true that Pope John XXIII is incorrupt, as this is a miracle that has never been bestowed on other than Catholic saints. But that does not mean he could not have made mistakes. And if you are Pope and you make mistakes about the Church, the effects will reverberate for centuries. It has happened before.

S. Thomas Aquinas wrote, * “Contra factum non argumentum est”.* “Against a fact there is no argument”. Now it is a fact that the Second Vatican Council agreed to drop the criticism, or even mention, of Communism, in exchange for the presence of two top ecclesiastics of the Russian Orthodox Church. And both of them were discovered to be KGB agents. Nothing is more obvious than that the Church did an about-face on Communism and adopted Ostpolitik – on John XXIII’s watch. And it is obvious that the Consecration of Russia went against Ostpolitik. And it is a fact that Pope John read the Third Secret (the 25 lines) and re-sealed it with these words written on the envelope –“I leave it for others to decide” … when it was his own duty to make that decision.

 

[VitaminC]

A couple points as to posting #168:

Contrary to the claims of Socci and the Fatima Center, the evidence doesn’t support the idea that Cardinal Ratzinger was reluctantly forced to go along with Cardinal Sodano. Cardinal Ratzinger had actually already flip-flopped his position on Fatima by the mid nineties. I post below published comments from Cardinal Ratzinger in his 1984 interview with Jesus Magazine and another interview from 1996. The comments are color coded. Red goes with red, green goes with green. The point of the color coding is to show how he contradicted himself:

In 1984, when asked by an interviewer why the Third Secret hasn’t been revealed:
“Because, according to the judgement of the Popes, it adds nothing to what a Christian must know concerning what derives from Revelation: i.e., a radical call for conversion; the absolute importance of history; the dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore of the world. And then the importance of the end times. If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational. But the things contained in this ‘Third Secret’ correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for ‘salvation’.”

In 1996, when asked by an interviewer why the Third Secret hasn’t been revealed:

“I’ve had enough of speaking about that. The message transmitted by Sister Lucy, and not yet revealed, concerns neither the history of the world in general nor individual facts in particular. The Lady does not enter into details about the future. The Secret contains nothing new, it foretells no tragedy for humanity, nothing apocalyptic and nothing essential for the faith. The Lady simply opens a path, and this path leads to conversion and to faith. In a certain sense, the Second Vatican Council was the realization of the Virgin’s message and, in summoning it, Pope John XXIII did the essential in answer to the Virgin’s message.”[taken from The Catholic Counter-Reformation in the XXth Century, #289, Oct. 1996] → see:* catholicism.org/downloads/suppressing.pdf . Also the book, FATIMA IN TWILIGHT, Mark Fellows, Marmion Publications, 2003).

So, what happened? Cardinal Ratzinger told two different stories. He didn’t just tell two different stories. His second story was the exact opposite of his first one!

According to EWTN, in the '90s Cardinal Ratzinger also stated the following. This is the most freaky part of all:

“To all those who are curious, I would say that they should be certain that the Virgin does not engage in sensationalism; she does not create fear. She does not present apocalyptic visions, but guides people to her Son. And in this we have the essential (of the secret).” ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ENDNEAR.TXT

====
Also, the Secretary of State is not the head of the CDF. All offices except the CDF answer to him. The CDF only answers to him in matters of national security or foreign relations. The prefect for the CDF answers directly to the pope.

 

[numealinesimpet]

A couple points as to posting #168:

Contrary to the claims of Socci and the Fatima Center, the evidence doesn’t support the idea that Cardinal Ratzinger was reluctantly forced to go along with Cardinal Sodano. Cardinal Ratzinger had actually already flip-flopped his position on Fatima by the mid nineties.

The additional evidence you cite does give weight to the thesis that the then Cdl Ratzinger did agree with Cdl Sodano. Socci constantly tries to put the best construction on things. Fr Kramer is more forthright.

So, what happened? Cardinal Ratzinger told two different stories. He didn’t just tell two different stories. His second story was the exact opposite of his first one!

“Against a fact there is no argument”.
It is encouraging that, as Pope, he seems to have changed his mind once again on Fatima.
As an aside, he was the only Expert in Holy Orders at the preliminary discussions over the Second Vatican council who wore a suit instead of clerical garb. compare that with the recent Papal Masses. All prelates are strictly instructed to wear full vestments.

According to EWTN, in the '90s Cardinal Ratzinger also stated the following. This is the most freaky part of all:

“To all those who are curious, I would say that they should be certain that the Virgin does not engage in sensationalism; she does not create fear. She does not present apocalyptic visions, but guides people to her Son. And in this we have the essential (of the secret).” ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ENDNEAR.TXT

====

Also, the Secretary of State is not the head of the CDF. All offices except the CDF answer to him. The CDF only answers to him in matters of national security or foreign relations. The prefect for the CDF answers directly to the pope.

I am glad to hear that.

 

[LayingHands]

I am a new believer in Our Lady of Fatima. I remember watching a film about Fatima when I was a child at school; but I forgot about the apparition shortly afterwards and never really thought about it again. Recently, thanks to CAF, I rediscovered Our Lady of Fatima and I have become a believer. I’ve ready many websites, including The Fatima Network of Father Nicholas Gruner. I am aware that Fr. Gruner is not a priest in good standing with the Catholic Church, but I find his interpretation of the Fatima message interesting. He believes the Fatima message remains relevant to our times, but others seem to think that the time of Fatima passed with the end of the Cold War and the fall of Soviet Russia. Father Gruner does not believe the Consecration of Russia has been performed, but the Church maintains that this was done by Pope John Paul II in 1984.

My question: Is Fatima still relevant to our time? Or has the time of Fatima passed?

I have also noticed that traditional Catholics seem to be the main proponents of Our Lady of Fatima; they seem to be the ones who really believe in the importance of this message. Why is this?

Please Note: I am aware that there are many conspiracy theories surrounding Fatima. I have no problems discussing these, but please do not see this as an opportunity to slander Vatican II or the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I mention this because I have come across traditionalists who insist Fatima is opposed to Vatican II, and this leads them to be uncharitable in their words. I am really interested in this topic and I would love to have a friendly, polite discussion about all of the elements of the Fatima apparitions. Thanks.

Easily, Our Lady of Fatima is also Our Lady of Lourdes and is also Our Lady of Guadalupe…she is and has always been Our Mother Mary, Mother of Jesus Christ…appearing to the masses with Messages for Humanity…to say that Our Lady of Fatima has passed to become possibly irrelevant?..is to say, Our Mother Mary may in time also become irrelevant…this will never happen…

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

If you think Pope John was a bad character who knowingly defied Our Lady how do you explain his incorrupt body which is usually associated with saintliness?

Pope John XXIII’s body incorrupt? Where did you hear that? John XXIII is not a saint. I wouldn’t call him a bad character, there are even rumors he wanted to stop Vatican II, but he’s not worthy of being a saint regardless.

 

[Hope3]

I do not think that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary has happened in its entirety because I think that the time period of peace that was promised will actually be during the time period immediately after the Three Days Darkness and it will be during the reign of the Great Monarch (Rev. 6:1-2) and this peace will last until he lays down his scepter. When he lays down his scepter, then it will be the time of the Antichrist.

It is prophesied that this Great Monarch will ride a white horse and so does the conqueror in Revelation 6:1-2.

Anna Catherine Emmerich:

August to October, 1820

“I see more martyrs, not now but in the future…I saw the secret sect relentlessly undermining the great Church. Near them I saw a horrible beast coming up from the sea… All over the world, good and devout people especially the clergy were harassed oppressed and put into prison. I had the feeling that they would become martyrs one day. “8

“When the Church had been for the most part destroyed [by the secret sect], and when only the sanctuary and altar were still standing, I saw the wreckers enter the Church with the Beast. There they met a Woman of noble carriage who seemed to be with child because she walked slowly. At this sight, the enemies were terrorized, and the Beast could not take but another step forward. It projected its neck towards the Woman as if to devour her, but the Woman turned about and bowed down [towards the altar], her head touching the ground. Thereupon, I saw the Beast taking to flight towards the sea again, and the enemies were fleeing in the greatest confusion… Then, I saw in the great distance great legion approaching. In the foreground I saw a man on a white horse. Prisoners were set free and joined them. All enemies were pursued. Then, I saw that the Church was being promptly rebuilt, and she was more magnificent than ever before….” 9 from catholicrevelations.org/PR/bl%20anna%20maria%20katarina%20emmerick.htm

After Pope Benedict was elected, he stated, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves,” so we are definitely not now in the time period of peace that our Lady promised.

speramus-hope.blogspot.com/2010/04/anniversary-of-election-of-pope.html

 

[Victorious]

I do not think that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary has happened in its entirety because I think that the time period of peace that was promised will actually be during the time period immediately after the Three Days Darkness and it will be during the reign of the Great Monarch (Rev. 6:1-2) and this peace will last until he lays down his scepter. …After Pope Benedict was elected, he stated, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves,” so we are definitely not now in the time period of peace that our Lady promised.

Well, a couple of things about the promised period of peace. (1) Surely the quality and duration of this peace depend on how many of us get on the stick and live the message of Fatima (prayer, penance, conversion). To the extent we dink around and don’t take the message seriously, we are not going to get all of the good that we could have gotten. (2) Our Lady did not promise that all evil would be eradicated from the earth during this period of peace. Nor could she have: the final end of all evil will not come until the End of Time.

 

[irishcolleen45]

If Our Lady of Fatima is still relevant (and I’m not saying she isn’t), why did Our Lady appear in Kibeho Rwanda in 1981-89? If Our Lady appears more recently, does that mean the messages from prior apparitions have been fulfilled?

At Kibeho, she said her message was not just for Rwandans but for all the world.

I have not noted Medjugorje because the visitations at Medjugorje have not been approved by the Vatican but the visitations at Kibeho have been approved.

Whether or not Our Lady of Fatima is still relevant, I find it amazing how merciful and patient God has been despite His children’s negative behavior. How much longer will His mercy be with us?

 

[Victorious]

If Our Lady of Fatima is still relevant (and I’m not saying she isn’t), why did Our Lady appear in Kibeho Rwanda in 1981-89? If Our Lady appears more recently, does that mean the messages from prior apparitions have been fulfilled?

Nope. The essential message of Fatima was: repent, convert, pray and do penance. That is relevant at all times and in all places.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

If Our Lady of Fatima is still relevant (and I’m not saying she isn’t), why did Our Lady appear in Kibeho Rwanda in 1981-89? If Our Lady appears more recently, does that mean the messages from prior apparitions have been fulfilled?

At Kibeho, she said her message was not just for Rwandans but for all the world.

I have not noted Medjugorje because the visitations at Medjugorje have not been approved by the Vatican but the visitations at Kibeho have been approved.

Whether or not Our Lady of Fatima is still relevant, I find it amazing how merciful and patient God has been despite His children’s negative behavior. How much longer will His mercy be with us?

No, they have not.

I would imagine it won’t be much longer before God has had enough and sends the chastizement.

 

[Br_John_Marie]

Dear Br. / Sr. in Christ,

Your question about the relativeness/ importance of Our Lady of Fatima is truly a good question to ask and deserves a detailed response… from reading the responses you have received so far, I believe that still more needs to be said to establish the importance of Our Lady of Fatima and her message.

While Fatima’s prophetic message for the world is important, the essence of Fatima is Our Lady’s requests of the little children (Francisco, Jacinta, and Lucia), and all of us.

Our Lady’s words to the children: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifices themselves and to pray for them”. This is THE ESSENCE of the message of Fatima for then and for today.

Further, God wishes to save sinners as Our Lady said sadly: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart”.

Let us put these words into practice today because it is more relevant today than ever before in the history of mankind.

Best regards in Our Lady,
Br. John Marie Joseph,
Little Children of Our Sorrowful Mother
The Netherlands

 

[JustaServant]

How anyone can look at the state of the world today, especially our own country, and believe Our Lady of Fatima ‘belongs to the past’, has to be completely blind to all that is going on around them.

 

[MerryCatholic]

Dempsey,

i would not even visit his site. the consecration of russia was done. and sister lucy herself said heaven has accepted it. so whatever father gruner says, don’t even give it the time of day. i would avoid his site at all costs.

 

[VitaminC]

Dempsey,

i would not even visit his site. the consecration of russia was done. and sister lucy herself said heaven has accepted it. so whatever father gruner says, don’t even give it the time of day. i would avoid his site at all costs.

Actually, Sr. Lucia, in a 1985 interview with Sol de Fatima Magazine stated the last consecration FAILED. She repeated this claim in a 1987 interview with reporter Enrique Romero which was published in the early August edition of the Argentinian publication Para Ti. She once again said it FAILED.

In 1989 Fr. Coelho reported that the Vatican “ordered” her and those associated with her to start saying the consecration was completed. Then dubious letters started appearing purportedly by Sr. Lucia saying the consecration had been completed.

And Fr. Malachi Martin in the 1990’s in a taped interview with Bernard Janzen said that agents for the Vatican had “published forged letters” in Sr. Lucia’s name and “put statements on her lips she never made.”

Cardinal Bertone claims he met with Sr. Lucia after the publication of the 2000 booklet. He claims she told him the full Third Secret had been released and that the consecration had been completed, too. Attorney Christopher Ferrara had a field day debunking and exposing the falsehoods in Bertone’s book and appearances. Cardinal Bertone has been disgraced. He has no credibility left. And the best evidence we have is that the consecration of Russia had never been completed.

Sr. Lucia did say a consecration of the “world” had been done, and had shortened WWII. This has nothing to do with what was requested by the Blessed Virgin in the Second Secret, the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

 

[Windfish]

Hello, everyone.

I want to know everything I possibly can about Our Lady of Fatima before I share it with my non-believing friends. I think faith should involve more than just signs, but non-believers, especially, may need an extra-Biblical impetus.

I think the reports from anti-clerical and anti-religious sources which verified the miracle are examples of clinching historical evidence, but there are a few oddities:

-Why didn’t everyone in the crowd see the miracle? We can speculate that the miracle was selective, but is there any evidence of that?

-The unusual solar activity was not observed by others around the world.

-The testimonies by witnesses, I have read, varied quite substantially. Evidence of mass delusion/hysteria?

-How can we explain that the solar system was not affected by the sun’s movements?

-I have read that even between the three children, their accounts of their encounters with the apparition varied substantially. Is this true?

Can anyone familiar with the evidence and facts answer these oddities? I just want to be as informed as possible before I decide to share this story.

 

[Victorious]

-Why didn’t everyone in the crowd see the miracle? We can speculate that the miracle was selective, but is there any evidence of that?

-The unusual solar activity was not observed by others around the world.

-The testimonies by witnesses, I have read, varied quite substantially. Evidence of mass delusion/hysteria?

-How can we explain that the solar system was not affected by the sun’s movements?

-I have read that even between the three children, their accounts of their encounters with the apparition varied substantially. Is this true?

Can anyone familiar with the evidence and facts answer these oddities? I just want to be as informed as possible before I decide to share this story.

I don’t think the variances in witness accounts are problematic. God can make people see different things depending on what they need to see or not see for their benefit. It is true that the children themselves experienced the apparitions differently. Whereas both Lucia and Jacinta could both see and hear the apparitions, Francisco could only see them. In fact, in the very beginning, Francisco couldn’t see the Blessed Mother until he started praying the Rosary. On the other hand, Francisco often remarked that Our Lord “looks so sad,” which suggests he was able to see things that the girls did not see (or at least that Lucia did not mention). Also, if you read Lucia’s memoirs, you will find that Lucia saw the angel for the first time long before the apparitions of 1917 (perhaps as early as 1915).

As far as the lack of effects on the solar system, God can do or not do anything He wants. And while the solar miracle was not visible around the world, it was visible more than 30 miles away, which tends to blow the mass hysteria theory out of the water.

 

[hawkeye]

Yes !

 

[Windfish]

I don’t think the variances in witness accounts are problematic. God can make people see different things depending on what they need to see or not see for their benefit. It is true that the children themselves experienced the apparitions differently. Whereas both Lucia and Jacinta could both see and hear the apparitions, Francisco could only see them. In fact, in the very beginning, Francisco couldn’t see the Blessed Mother until he started praying the Rosary. On the other hand, Francisco often remarked that Our Lord “looks so sad,” which suggests he was able to see things that the girls did not see (or at least that Lucia did not mention). Also, if you read Lucia’s memoirs, you will find that Lucia saw the angel for the first time long before the apparitions of 1917 (perhaps as early as 1915).

As far as the lack of effects on the solar system, God can do or not do anything He wants. And while the solar miracle was not visible around the world, it was visible more than 30 miles away, which tends to blow the mass hysteria theory out of the water.

Excellent feedback. Thank you! You did not, however, specifically comment on the fact that not everyone in the crowd witnessed the miracle. I don’t mean to prod you at all, but non-believers (at least those familiar with the facts) emphasize this to discredit the whole history.

Can anyone direct me to thorough resources on the facts of Our Lady of Fatima?

 

[Victorious]

Excellent feedback. Thank you! You did not, however, specifically comment on the fact that not everyone in the crowd witnessed the miracle. I don’t mean to prod you at all, but non-believers (at least those familiar with the facts) emphasize this to discredit the whole history.

Can anyone direct me to thorough resources on the facts of Our Lady of Fatima?

I can’t recall any accounts where it was said that not everybody saw the miracle. But if there are people who didn’t see it, I’d have to conclude that God didn’t want them to see it for one reason or another. Maybe they didn’t deserve to see it.

For more information on Fatima, your first stop should be the memoirs of Sr. Lucia, In Her Own Words. They are in two volumes. The first volume focuses on the contents of the apparitions; the second focuses on Lucia’s family life, and what happened after the apparitions.