Is Papal Primacy as it is currently understood a development?

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Guest1

New member
If it’s okay to paste from Wikipedia

While acknowledging that “the New Testament contains no explicit record of a transmission of Peter’s leadership; nor is the transmission of apostolic authority in general very clear,”[25] it considers that its doctrine has a developmental history and that its teaching about matters such as the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the union of his two natures in a single person developed as the result of drawing out from the original revealed truth consequences that were not obvious at first: “Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church ‘through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts’; it is in particular ‘theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth’”.[26]

Accordingly, it would be a mistake to expect to find the modern fully developed doctrine of papal primacy in the first centuries, thereby failing to recognize the Church’s historical reality.[27] The figure of the pope as leader of the worldwide church developed over time, as the figure of the bishop as leader of the local church seems to have appeared later than in the time of the apostles.[a]

That the Christian scriptures, which contain no cut-and-dried answers to questions such as whether or not there is forgiveness for post-baptismal sins, and whether or not infants should be baptized, gradually become clearer in the light of events, is a view expressed, when considering the doctrine of papal primacy, by Cardinal John Henry Newman, who summed up his thought by saying:

[…] developments of Christianity are proved to have been in the contemplation of its Divine Author, by an argument parallel to that by which we infer intelligence in the system of the physical world. In whatever sense the need and its supply are a proof of design in the visible creation, in the same do the gaps, if the word may be used, which occur in the structure of the original creed of the Church, make it probable that those developments, which grow out of the truths which lie around them, were intended to fill them up."[29]
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Guest1 said:
While acknowledging that “the New Testament contains no explicit record of a transmission of Peter’s leadership; nor is the transmission of apostolic authority in general very clear,”[25] it considers that its doctrine has a developmental history
Click to expand...
I couldn’t even get past the first sentence without rolling my eyes. 😉

The quote (from an ARCIC document) is talking about apostolic succession (and in particular, papal succession), and is not discussing primacy or its development, per se.
Guest1 said:
That the Christian scriptures, which contain no cut-and-dried answers to questions such as whether or not there is forgiveness for post-baptismal sins, and whether or not infants should be baptized
Click to expand...
Huh?

1 Corinthians 5:5 – “so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” Sure sounds like punishment for sins now, so that salvation might be attained later.

Scripture records baptisms of entire households. How are we to understand that infants are excluded from this reference?

Anyway, the answer to your question, from a Catholic perspective, is found at Matthew 16:19. Only Peter is given this authority (in this context). When Jesus says “you” in verse 19, it’s in the singular, not plural. Moreover, only Peter is seen to be told by Jesus to care for Jesus’ flock (John 21:16-17).

The expression of this authority has developed over time (just as the Church has grown and developed), but the notion of papal primacy was there from the beginning.
 
I think that the Eastern Churches may recognize a weaker primacy of honor, but anything stronger could present a stumbling block to reunion.
 
Can you give an example please on expression?

Also is it an official Church teaching concerning the expression being a development?

Thank you for your answer.
 
[1] Here are a list of Popes with dates of their service until Constantine and the Council of Nicea [325 Ad]
  1. St. Peter (32-67)
  2. St. Linus (67-76)
  3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  4. St. Clement I (88-97)
  5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
  6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
  7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
  8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
  9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
  10. St. Pius I (140-155)
  11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
  12. St. Soter (166-175)
  13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
  14. St. Victor I (189-199)
  15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
    EDITED TO MEET SPACE LIMITSt.
  16. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
  17. St. Miltiades (311-14)
  18. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
THIS IS HIGHLY NOTABLE IN THAT UNTIL THE EDICT OF MILAN THE RCC WAS SO SEVERELY PERSECUTED; THAT MOST OF HER EARLY POPES WERE MARTYRED FOR THEIR CATHOLIC FAITH; YET TOOK THE CHAIR OF PETER KNOWING THAT SUCH WAS LITERALLY LIFE ENDANGERING

The above quoted article is quoted from Wikipedia; an interesting but not always accurate site. I would like to address the 2nd to last comments:

[2]John 3:5
Sin forgiveness IS taught God’s WAY in John 20:19-23 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If YOU forgive the sins of any, they ARE forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they ARE retained.”

[3] Infant Baptism IS Taught: John 3:5 “ Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” THERE IS NO EXCLUSION OF INFANTS HERE WHO TOO ARE BORN WITH ORIGINAL SIN.

[4]Papal Primacy is biblically provable by comparing Mt 10: 1-6 to Mt 28:19-20 It was in an absolute sense God Ordained

Chpt 10: And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave THEM authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every Infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter… THESE TWELVE Jesus sent out, charging THEM to go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Chpt 28: YOU Go therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL THAT I have commanded [taught] YOU; and lo, I am with YOU always, to the close of the age."

Further supported by: John17:17-20 Sanctify THEM in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so [TOO] I have sent THEM into the world. And for THEIR SAKE I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,

St. Irenaeus
“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]
 
Guest1 said:
Can you give an example please on expression?
Click to expand...
I simply mean “the way that a particular thing is realized”.

So, for instance, at the beginning of the Church, the leadership of the Church was expressed through twelve apostles. Today, it’s through ~5100 bishops.
Also is it an official Church teaching concerning the expression being a development?
Click to expand...
Not sure what you’re asking… 🤔
 
The Church is an organic, living thing, not a dead letter or set of doctrines. Living things grow while at the same time retaining their identity and “being”.
Is an acorn part of an oak tree? Yes. At the same time the tree does not look like an acorn. The continuous reality of the tree is expressed more fully as it grows, yet it retains the substance of what came before.
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, … Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Hi, Guest!

Have you considered where the scholars go wrong?

Where in in the Gospels does Christ call any of His Disciples, “Apostle?”

Did they discover that Christianity did not exists till years after Christ’s Ascension?

How did St. Paul Know that Jesus was the Rock that gave living water to the Hebrews on their trek in the dessert?

How did the Apostles determine to continue to Celebrate Jesus’ Supper, every Sunday?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
So is it official teaching from the Catholic church that there has been development like Acorn to a tree with the Bishop of Rome?
 
The “development” is in theological terminology; NOT in historical fact.

May I suggest you GOOGLE “The List of all Popes”

They are named and date from St Peter himself

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
Sure. The theology unpacks the reality that was always there. History and theology are intertwined. The Church has one foot in this world and one foot in the Divine. Both in history and outside time.
759…This “family of God” is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world,
Click to expand...
The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Christ is alive, so is the Church. The human element of the Church is moving towards fullness.
The Church - perfected in glory

769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182

III. THE MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH

770 The Church is in history, but at the same time she transcends it. It is only "with the eyes of faith"183 that one can see her in her visible reality and at the same time in her spiritual reality as bearer of divine life.
Click to expand...
 
Hi, Guest!

…if I follow you correctly, yes; I would say more as Unfolding (as with the Universe: all laws and mysteries existing completely from the Beginning and being Unfolded/discovered through time (as the new 9.7 million years old tooth akin to Lucy/Ardi).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top