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Wirraway
Guest
a sin on which planet?
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G
Geremia
Guest
Yes, and it seems many of the people on this thread need to go to confession for their responses. If a premarital relationship can avoid fornication even when passionately kissing, it still amplifies carnal attraction, overshadowing the fostering of a spiritual relationship.If an unmarried man passionately kisses his girlfriend, is it a sin?
W
Wirraway
Guest
someone who twists himself or herself into knots over whether a kiss is a sin has checked out of the human race.Yes, and it seems many of the people on this thread need to go to confession for their responses. If a premarital relationship can avoid fornication even when passionately kissing, it still amplifies carnal attraction, overshadowing the fostering of a spiritual relationship.
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Geremia
Guest
Note that I said “passionately kissing” not “kissing.”someone who twists himself or herself into knots over whether a kiss is a sin has checked out of the human race.
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Wirraway
Guest
where’s the bright line distinction between the two?Note that I said “passionately kissing” not “kissing.”
M
Marc_Aupiais
Guest
The difference is theological- one is a neutral action- the other is inordinate pursuit of sexual pleasure- and a mortal sin! Read the catechism n this- it agrees!
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Wirraway
Guest
I had intended to ask this way up in the thread but never got around to it. are you talking about teenagers or men and women in their 40s? or both?The difference is theological- one is a neutral action- the other is inordinate pursuit of sexual pleasure- and a mortal sin! Read the catechism n this- it agrees!
C
chaz0426
Guest
passionate kissing can lead to further things which can lead to sin. Trust me I’ve been there plenty of times and it is hard to stop and much easier to keep going. However me personally, I am able to stop about 100% of the time so I know my boundaries and limits and I can passionately kiss. However that is as far as I plan to go until i’m married. But being in college, and not being a virgin, it is hard to stop if you put yourself in that situation so it’s best to avoid it. However girls can be very tempting and seductive and sometimes they just come on to you. But yea, for me personally that is my line since that is as far as I am able to go and able to stop.
I only kiss girls/women I’ve had a emotionally intimate relationship with for a couple of months though, not girls I just met. So no I personally don’t think it is a sin unless your intentions are purely out of lust and/or go further to sexual acts and they not really from the heart. Then you are just cheating your girl/women.
Another note:
How do you expect to grow your relationship to the point of marriage if you only hold hands and hug? I mean if your girlfriend/boyfriend feels the same way as you then hey thats great and your relationship can do fine without kissing.
However from experience about 95% of girls I have come across in their late teens and 20’s since I’m 20 myself (even catholic and pretty religious ones) feel the same way I do and value intimacy and kissing. So if your girlfriend/boyfriend wants to kiss you and you don’t feel the same then there can be trouble and you need to discuss your boundaries.
But I think if one partner feels it is sinful to kiss and won’t do it until marriage while the other doesn’t feel the same, your robbing your partner of a lot of emotional intimacy and feeling of love that he/she needs. Unless both parties feel the same, your relationship will not even get to marriage if your restricted to hand holding and hugging only. That’s like being friends almost and I would think that once married things would be awkward after years of just doing that and you can go further than friend type stuff.
By the way, My boundaries are actually quite tight compared to most guys my age.
I only kiss girls/women I’ve had a emotionally intimate relationship with for a couple of months though, not girls I just met. So no I personally don’t think it is a sin unless your intentions are purely out of lust and/or go further to sexual acts and they not really from the heart. Then you are just cheating your girl/women.
Another note:
How do you expect to grow your relationship to the point of marriage if you only hold hands and hug? I mean if your girlfriend/boyfriend feels the same way as you then hey thats great and your relationship can do fine without kissing.
However from experience about 95% of girls I have come across in their late teens and 20’s since I’m 20 myself (even catholic and pretty religious ones) feel the same way I do and value intimacy and kissing. So if your girlfriend/boyfriend wants to kiss you and you don’t feel the same then there can be trouble and you need to discuss your boundaries.
But I think if one partner feels it is sinful to kiss and won’t do it until marriage while the other doesn’t feel the same, your robbing your partner of a lot of emotional intimacy and feeling of love that he/she needs. Unless both parties feel the same, your relationship will not even get to marriage if your restricted to hand holding and hugging only. That’s like being friends almost and I would think that once married things would be awkward after years of just doing that and you can go further than friend type stuff.
By the way, My boundaries are actually quite tight compared to most guys my age.
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Wirraway
Guest
in real life, you’d be robbing yourself of a partner.… if one partner feels it is sinful to kiss and won’t do it until marriage while the other doesn’t feel the same, your robbing your partner of a lot of emotional intimacy and feeling of love that he/she needs. …
E
eelpis
Guest
Yes according to the pope it is. There was a dubium sent to the Holy See and the pope answered that it depends on the individual but passionate kissing with the tongue constitutes grave matter objectively.
M
Mattapoisett64
Guest
Since it is objectively grave matter, does that mean always objectively grave, even within marriage, or is it only grave outside of marriage? Since it is not procreative, and constitutes an unnatural use of the body (the mouth being ordered to speaking and eating as Aquinas would, or maybe did, say), perhaps the thread has missed the point in that it is always wrong?Yes according to the pope it is. There was a dubium sent to the Holy See and the pope answered that it depends on the individual but passionate kissing with the tongue constitutes grave matter objectively.
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eelpis
Guest
It’s always wrong outside of marriage. That were the criteria when the pope answered the dubium. But you might have another opinion than the pope if you wish. I hope that you don’t adopt a schismatic mentality though.Since it is objectively grave matter, does that mean always objectively grave, even within marriage, or is it only grave outside of marriage? Since it is not procreative, and constitutes an unnatural use of the body (the mouth being ordered to speaking and eating as Aquinas would, or maybe did, say), perhaps the thread has missed the point in that it is always wrong?
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larsegarots
Guest
There is absolutely nothing wrong with kissing outside of marriage, and nothing in the bible that suggests it is.
C
cynic
Guest
What if you are married?
From what I can gather, Catholics believe that any kind of ‘passionate’ contact (clothes on) should only occur as the neccessary means of arousal before ‘relations’. Once that’s over with, all ‘passionate’ contact should cease immediately, as it no longer serves a purpose, and the couple should go back to thinking of each other as brother and sister, ie as platonic partners.
From what I can gather, Catholics believe that any kind of ‘passionate’ contact (clothes on) should only occur as the neccessary means of arousal before ‘relations’. Once that’s over with, all ‘passionate’ contact should cease immediately, as it no longer serves a purpose, and the couple should go back to thinking of each other as brother and sister, ie as platonic partners.
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rusty20
Guest
If you passionately kiss purely to become sexually aroused, then yes it is problematic.
BUT, if you happen to be sexually aroused (and resist) while passionately kissing a girlfriend, I see nothing wrong.
I think people confuse the two in this thread…
BUT, if you happen to be sexually aroused (and resist) while passionately kissing a girlfriend, I see nothing wrong.
I think people confuse the two in this thread…
W
Wirraway
Guest
uh…Yes according to the pope it is. There was a dubium sent to the Holy See and the pope answered that it depends on the individual but passionate kissing with the tongue constitutes grave matter objectively.
No.
anyway, I’d like to see the dubium and the responsum. what century was it sent?
P
Person
Guest
I would really like it if you could post a link to the Dubium. I could use a modern source such as this in convincing others of the truth that you have said is expressed in it.
P
Person
Guest
First, I think that when you wrote “purely,” you meant “merely.” I often make the mistake of using the word “purely” in these contexts, which leads to confusion, thus I can understand the mistake.If you passionately kiss purely to become sexually aroused, then yes it is problematic.
BUT, if you happen to be sexually aroused (and resist) while passionately kissing a girlfriend, I see nothing wrong.
I think people confuse the two in this thread…
Second, I think you are close to describing the truth on this matter. What do you mean by “and resist”? Resist what, specifically?
P
Person
Guest
PART ONE OF TWO
First, we must define “passionate kissing.”
The word “passion” would indicate the presence of emotion(s), such as desire, in this case, sexual desire. When one encourages the increase of sexual desire through an act, one also increases sexual pleasure. The word “kissing” stands in contrast to the word “kiss.” A “kiss” is a solitary unit. “Kissing” is a prolonged activity. Therefore, “passionate kissing” is “a prolonged activity in which one experiences sexual desire and sexual pleasure through the use of mutual exchanges of kisses.”
Next, we shall define the two subjects involved in a general way. A brief definition of “human person” is “a rational animal.” Why are we not mere animals? It is because we have an intellect and a will. Like animals, we are drawn to sensual delights. As humans, we are called to prefer spiritual delights over sensual delights. It is the intellect that ultimately desires to fully know spiritual things and the will that ultimately chooses to do spiritual things.
Now let’s compare an animal and a human. Animals act primarily on sensual delights. They do what is pleasurable or useful and do not do what is painful or harmful. Human persons, as rational animals, share this in common with animals. One difference between animals and humans in this matter is that human persons understand the proper ordering of spiritual things. In the case of sexual desire and sexual pleasure, we understand that they are properly ordered specifically in the marital context.
We must acknowledge the commonality among human persons–our anthropology, our ontology. We also must acknowledge certain commonalities among males and also among females. Male human persons are normally sexually aroused, even if only slightly, when engaging in passionate kissing, as previously defined. Passionate kissing in female human persons normally increases a desire for relationship or deep communion.
Given the normal desires that we feel when in engaged in passionate kissing, either for sexual intercourse or for a deeper relationship, it is proper inside the context of marriage since sexual intercourse and deep communion are embedded in the essence of what it means to be married. It will benefit us to consider what it means to be in courtship.
Courtship is “a period of discernment in which two subjects, a male and female, seek to determine whether or not they are called to marriage with one another.” Courtship, by definition, is not marriage and should not be confused with it. There is no commitment in courtship except for the commitment to exclusively discern. For this reason, courtship is primarily “an exclusive friendship between a male and female human person.”
As rational beings, courting subjects are called to focus on the spiritual things in their courtship. Examples of some spiritual things to foster and/or explore during a courtship are: friendship, personal values, beliefs, dreams, goals. Since both subjects are also “animals,” they would normally have a difficult time focusing primarily on spiritual things when they are “fostering” carnal things by probing into one another’s mouths with their lips and/or tongues. The sensations elicited by such things normally overpower one’s intellect and place the focus on the body rather than on the aforementioned spiritual things.
We are called to selflessly give. Some courting singles maintain that passionate kissing can be a selfless act in which one focuses on the pleasure of the other. When focusing on female anthropology, we must reconsider such notions. Since, by definition of the term “courtship,” termination of a courtship must always be a viable option, it is selfish for a male subject to engage in passionate kissing with an unmarried woman because doing so would foster an increased desire for deep communion. The level of desire for relationship that a woman who engages in passionate kissing would normally experience is one that can only be fulfilled by the marital vow. Because it is always possible that a courtship may terminate, it is normally selfish and cruel of the male subject to engage in passionate kissing with a woman to whom he is not married.
First, we must define “passionate kissing.”
The word “passion” would indicate the presence of emotion(s), such as desire, in this case, sexual desire. When one encourages the increase of sexual desire through an act, one also increases sexual pleasure. The word “kissing” stands in contrast to the word “kiss.” A “kiss” is a solitary unit. “Kissing” is a prolonged activity. Therefore, “passionate kissing” is “a prolonged activity in which one experiences sexual desire and sexual pleasure through the use of mutual exchanges of kisses.”
Next, we shall define the two subjects involved in a general way. A brief definition of “human person” is “a rational animal.” Why are we not mere animals? It is because we have an intellect and a will. Like animals, we are drawn to sensual delights. As humans, we are called to prefer spiritual delights over sensual delights. It is the intellect that ultimately desires to fully know spiritual things and the will that ultimately chooses to do spiritual things.
Now let’s compare an animal and a human. Animals act primarily on sensual delights. They do what is pleasurable or useful and do not do what is painful or harmful. Human persons, as rational animals, share this in common with animals. One difference between animals and humans in this matter is that human persons understand the proper ordering of spiritual things. In the case of sexual desire and sexual pleasure, we understand that they are properly ordered specifically in the marital context.
We must acknowledge the commonality among human persons–our anthropology, our ontology. We also must acknowledge certain commonalities among males and also among females. Male human persons are normally sexually aroused, even if only slightly, when engaging in passionate kissing, as previously defined. Passionate kissing in female human persons normally increases a desire for relationship or deep communion.
Given the normal desires that we feel when in engaged in passionate kissing, either for sexual intercourse or for a deeper relationship, it is proper inside the context of marriage since sexual intercourse and deep communion are embedded in the essence of what it means to be married. It will benefit us to consider what it means to be in courtship.
Courtship is “a period of discernment in which two subjects, a male and female, seek to determine whether or not they are called to marriage with one another.” Courtship, by definition, is not marriage and should not be confused with it. There is no commitment in courtship except for the commitment to exclusively discern. For this reason, courtship is primarily “an exclusive friendship between a male and female human person.”
As rational beings, courting subjects are called to focus on the spiritual things in their courtship. Examples of some spiritual things to foster and/or explore during a courtship are: friendship, personal values, beliefs, dreams, goals. Since both subjects are also “animals,” they would normally have a difficult time focusing primarily on spiritual things when they are “fostering” carnal things by probing into one another’s mouths with their lips and/or tongues. The sensations elicited by such things normally overpower one’s intellect and place the focus on the body rather than on the aforementioned spiritual things.
We are called to selflessly give. Some courting singles maintain that passionate kissing can be a selfless act in which one focuses on the pleasure of the other. When focusing on female anthropology, we must reconsider such notions. Since, by definition of the term “courtship,” termination of a courtship must always be a viable option, it is selfish for a male subject to engage in passionate kissing with an unmarried woman because doing so would foster an increased desire for deep communion. The level of desire for relationship that a woman who engages in passionate kissing would normally experience is one that can only be fulfilled by the marital vow. Because it is always possible that a courtship may terminate, it is normally selfish and cruel of the male subject to engage in passionate kissing with a woman to whom he is not married.
P
Person
Guest
PART TWO OF TWO
Since passionate kissing normally clouds one’s intellect, it is contrary to the spirit of discernment embedded in the definition of courtship. A male subject, who sincerely desires to marry a woman, will often unknowingly attempt to manipulate her into wishing to marry him through such an enticement as passionate kissing provides. As Christians, we are called to investigate our hearts and discover our impure intentions and be certain not to act upon them. For this reason, the truly pure and selfless man will not engage in passionate kissing with any unmarried woman. He will act only upon his pure intentions and engage in activities of spiritual discovery as opposed to bodily discovery.
It is also likely that courting women who maintain that passionate kissing can be a selfless act in which one focuses on the pleasure of the other have fallen into error. Male subjects, by nature, have a quick sexual response to one passionate kiss and an even greater response to a prolonged series of passionate kisses. It is not the goal of Christianity to reduce the nature of male human persons by attempting to help the male grow unaware of his bodily sensations. It is important for a man to recognize the normal movements of his body rather than to deceive himself. He must always remember that because he is a man certain intentional actions arouse sexual desire and pleasures in him that they do not arouse in the woman. Each intentional action is open to moral analysis. Intentionally experiencing a certain level of sexual desire and pleasure outside of marriage is seriously sinful. It is not properly ordered because it is outside of the proper marital context. Engaging in passionate kissing is an intentional action and, for that reason, it is subject to moral analaysis. The male subject who is unmarried and engages in passionate kissing engages in personal sin. While this is a personal sin, his female counterpart is an accomplice in his immoral action, thus there is an interpersonal or “social” element to the sin.
While it is often improper for a man to disclose the details of his sexual feelings to the woman he is courting, if she has a basic understanding of male sexuality, then she can monitor her own actions in accordance with Christian principles of purity. If a female subject only monitors her own sexual responses without taking into consideration those of her male counterpart, it would be difficult to call her way of thinking anything but selfish. Therefore, while many maintain that engaging in passionate kissing is an act of self giving, it is actually one of selfishness, in which one person assists in placing the other in a state either of mental obscurity or mortal sinfulness.
With all of this said, we must remember that affection is good and normal. There are certain forms of affection that are appropriate for those who are courting to share with one another. There is a wide variety of forms of affection that do not increase sexual desire or pleasure to excessive levels. Rather than ask the question “Is passionate kissing wrong for unmarried people,” we may now wish to ask, “What are the many beautiful ways that couples can show pure affection?”
Since passionate kissing normally clouds one’s intellect, it is contrary to the spirit of discernment embedded in the definition of courtship. A male subject, who sincerely desires to marry a woman, will often unknowingly attempt to manipulate her into wishing to marry him through such an enticement as passionate kissing provides. As Christians, we are called to investigate our hearts and discover our impure intentions and be certain not to act upon them. For this reason, the truly pure and selfless man will not engage in passionate kissing with any unmarried woman. He will act only upon his pure intentions and engage in activities of spiritual discovery as opposed to bodily discovery.
It is also likely that courting women who maintain that passionate kissing can be a selfless act in which one focuses on the pleasure of the other have fallen into error. Male subjects, by nature, have a quick sexual response to one passionate kiss and an even greater response to a prolonged series of passionate kisses. It is not the goal of Christianity to reduce the nature of male human persons by attempting to help the male grow unaware of his bodily sensations. It is important for a man to recognize the normal movements of his body rather than to deceive himself. He must always remember that because he is a man certain intentional actions arouse sexual desire and pleasures in him that they do not arouse in the woman. Each intentional action is open to moral analysis. Intentionally experiencing a certain level of sexual desire and pleasure outside of marriage is seriously sinful. It is not properly ordered because it is outside of the proper marital context. Engaging in passionate kissing is an intentional action and, for that reason, it is subject to moral analaysis. The male subject who is unmarried and engages in passionate kissing engages in personal sin. While this is a personal sin, his female counterpart is an accomplice in his immoral action, thus there is an interpersonal or “social” element to the sin.
While it is often improper for a man to disclose the details of his sexual feelings to the woman he is courting, if she has a basic understanding of male sexuality, then she can monitor her own actions in accordance with Christian principles of purity. If a female subject only monitors her own sexual responses without taking into consideration those of her male counterpart, it would be difficult to call her way of thinking anything but selfish. Therefore, while many maintain that engaging in passionate kissing is an act of self giving, it is actually one of selfishness, in which one person assists in placing the other in a state either of mental obscurity or mortal sinfulness.
With all of this said, we must remember that affection is good and normal. There are certain forms of affection that are appropriate for those who are courting to share with one another. There is a wide variety of forms of affection that do not increase sexual desire or pleasure to excessive levels. Rather than ask the question “Is passionate kissing wrong for unmarried people,” we may now wish to ask, “What are the many beautiful ways that couples can show pure affection?”
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