Is Paul an Apostle?

[patrick457]

What about the other letters?

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Ephesians 1:1-2)

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.

(Ephesians 2:19-21)

For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

(Ephesians 3:1-6)

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

(Ephesians 4:1-14)

In Ephesians “apostles” are commonly paired with “prophets” (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28) - not so much the prophets of the Old Testament but those who existed in the very early Church. In this letter “apostles and prophets” have a foundational role, suggesting that they belong to the first generation of Christians and have a key role in the building of the Church (Ephesians uses ekklēsia to refer to the universal Church, in contrast to other letters of Paul, where it is used mostly for local churches). Perhaps the reference to “evangelists” might support this view: elsewhere in the New Testament this word is used to refer to people who continued the work begun by “apostles” (cf. Philip the evangelist in Acts 21:8; Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:5).

 

[patrick457]

All other references to “apostle” in the other Pauline epistles is to Paul: say, 2 Timothy 1:11.

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.

(2 Timothy 1:8-14)

Within the New Testament, the author of Hebrews has a rather unique usage of apostolos: he uses it to refer to Jesus Himself as one who was sent by God.

Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God’s house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

(Hebrews 3:1-6)

The references to “apostles” in other letters (say, 1-2 Peter or Jude) are more ambiguous. They might be referring to the twelve, or they might refer to a larger group of people.

 

[patrick457]

Now it’s the gospels and Acts that is really the root of the problem here. Unlike Paul’s broad and sometimes inconsistent and confusing usage of “apostle” and the more ambiguous references by the other letter-writers, the gospels - specifically the synoptics - reserve the term apostoloi for the Twelve. In Matthew and Mark, the word appears only once - and it is clearly used to denote the twelve disciples:

And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach and have authority to cast out demons. He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder); Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

(Mark 3:13-19)

And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

(Matthew 10:1-4)

Luke is the one who uses the term the most, although for most of the time he does restrict it for the twelve in the gospel:

In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

(Luke 6:12-16)

On their return the apostles told him all that they had done. And he took them and withdrew apart to a town called Bethsaida.

(Luke 9:10)

One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”

(Luke 11:45-52)

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

(Luke 17:5-6)

And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and **the apostles **with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

(Luke 22:14-16)

Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles, but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them.

(Luke 24:10-11)

Luke continues the same pattern in his sequel Acts by restricting the term most of the time to the Eleven (later restored to Twelve with the election of Matthias), although in two places in chapter 14 he curiously calls both Barnabas and Paul - obviously not part the restored Twelve - “apostles,” contrary to his customary usage.

Now at Iconium they [Paul and Barnabas] entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.

Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd…

(Acts 14:1-4, 12-14)

 

[patrick457]

(Last post - finally!)

(Note Luke’s reference to “prophets and apostles” in 11:49. While he does link “prophets” with those from the OT, the term’s quite curious. Perhaps there’s also a reference here to the “prophets” of the early Church - cf. “apostles and prophets” in 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 and Ephesians 4:1-14?)

John’s gospel doesn’t use the term apostolos as a specialized term at all unlike the other gospels. There is only one place in the whole gospel where the word shows up:

When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.”

(John 13:12-17 ESV)

In Revelation, one passage where apostolos is used clearly refers to the Twelve (21:14 ton dōdeka apostolōn tou arniou “the twelve apostles of the Lamb”). 18:20 speaks of “you saints and apostles and prophets” (there it is again!). 2:2 has a nice use of the term to refer to false apostles: “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.”

To close this, here’s something from the Didache - “The Lord’s Teaching to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles.” Note how it uses the term apostle in the main text - it’s more closer to the sense Paul used it.

But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there’s a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.

 

[ezeekl]

I believe the scriptures to be inerrant. The scriptures [Acts 9] say that Jesus told Annaias that Paul was a chosen vessel of his to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. The scriptures call Paul an Apostle ten times. The scriptures do not call Matthias an Apostle. All scripture says of him is contained in Acts 1. He was elected to the office of bishop vacated by Judas and therefore was numbered among the eleven Apostles [Acts 1]. He is a bishop, nothing more. Paul was called by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Paul was sent by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Never called, never sent, elected as the first bishop. That sums up Matthias.

 

[rcwitness]

I believe the scriptures to be inerrant. The scriptures [Acts 9] say that Jesus told Annaias that Paul was a chosen vessel of his to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. The scriptures call Paul an Apostle ten times. The scriptures do not call Matthias an Apostle. All scripture says of him is contained in Acts 1. He was elected to the office of bishop vacated by Judas and therefore was numbered among the eleven Apostles [Acts 1]. He is a bishop, nothing more. Paul was called by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Paul was sent by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Never called, never sent, elected as the first bishop. That sums up Matthias.

What about the 70 in Luke 10? They were chosen and sent…before Paul…?

 

[ezeekl]

What about the 70 in Luke 10? They were chosen and sent…before Paul…?

They also came back. Although the Eastern church refers to them as the minor apostles, it should be pointed out that they were not empowered as the eleven were when they were sent. They could heal and maybe expell demons. They could not forgive sin nor consecrate the Eucharist. Also they could not empower others as the eleven did with Matthias.

 

[patrick457]

I believe the scriptures to be inerrant. The scriptures [Acts 9] say that Jesus told Annaias that Paul was a chosen vessel of his to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. The scriptures call Paul an Apostle ten times. The scriptures do not call Matthias an Apostle. All scripture says of him is contained in Acts 1. He was elected to the office of bishop vacated by Judas and therefore was numbered among the eleven Apostles [Acts 1]. He is a bishop, nothing more. Paul was called by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Paul was sent by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Never called, never sent, elected as the first bishop. That sums up Matthias.

I’m repeating what I said in the last post. Luke the author limits apostoloi to the Twelve most of the time in virtually all of Luke and in most of Acts. The only time he uses it to others distinct from the Twelve is in chapter 14 of Acts, where he clearly uses it to refer to Barnabas and Paul.

The rule of thumb here is that you have to consider the different authors separately. The New Testament books are bound under one cover nowadays, but they originally weren’t written that way. So how Paul uses the word apostolos is to be distinguished from how Luke or Mark or John use it.

 

[aragonjohn1]

I am confused if Paul is an apostle. I read in acts that the 11 choose Mathias to replace Judas so why do we call Paul and Apostle?

Am fairly sure that St. Paul is a disciple.

but, i know that he probably is esoterically both an Apostle and Disciple.

Hope this helps
God bless

 

[ezeekl]

I’m repeating what I said in the last post. Luke the author limits apostoloi to the Twelve most of the time in virtually all of Luke and in most of Acts. The only time he uses it to others distinct from the Twelve is in chapter 14 of Acts, where he clearly uses it to refer to Barnabas and Paul.

The rule of thumb here is that you have to consider the different authors separately. The New Testament books are bound under one cover nowadays, but they originally weren’t written that way. So how Paul uses the word apostolos is to be distinguished from how Luke or Mark or John use it.

But does it matter if the writers were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. In other words would the Holy Spirit talk out of both sides of his mouth, so to speak? I don’t think so.

 

[patrick457]

But does it matter if the writers were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. In other words would the Holy Spirit talk out of both sides of his mouth, so to speak? I don’t think so.

I’d like to use an analogy. The Catholic Church is composed of twenty-three autonomous particular churches, each with its own different traditions and spirituality and some difference in emphases. It’s a single Church comprised by different churches which you can’t just lump together. Same goes with Scripture. One single inspired canon comprised by different books and authors which cannot simply be homogenized.

 

[ezeekl]

I’d like to use an analogy. The Catholic Church is composed of twenty-three autonomous particular churches, each with its own different traditions and spirituality and some difference in emphases. It’s a single Church comprised by different churches which you can’t just lump together. Same goes with Scripture. One single inspired canon comprised by different books and authors which cannot simply be homogenized.

Bad analogy. The CatholicChurch maybe composed of different Rites but all of them are united in the Pope. Same too, the writers of scripture are all united in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not inspire any of the scripture writers to contradict another. That is why one cannot pull a verse out of scripture and ignore what other verses may say on the matter. We are not protestants, some of whose ministers do exactly that.

 

[_thaddeus]

I believe the scriptures to be inerrant. The scriptures [Acts 9] say that Jesus told Annaias that Paul was a chosen vessel of his to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. The scriptures call Paul an Apostle ten times. The scriptures do not call Matthias an Apostle. All scripture says of him is contained in Acts 1. He was elected to the office of bishop vacated by Judas and therefore was numbered among the eleven Apostles [Acts 1]. He is a bishop, nothing more. Paul was called by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Paul was sent by Christ. Matthias wasn’t. Never called, never sent, elected as the first bishop. That sums up Matthias.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say that “I believe the scriptures to be inerrant.”
I enjoy reading the Jerusalem Bible and the New English Bible.

JB Acts 1:23-26
23Having nominated two candidates, Joseph known as Barsabbas, whose surname was Justus, and Matthias, 24they prayed, ‘Lord, you can read everyone’s heart; show us therefore which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this ministry and apostolate, which Judas abandoned to go to his proper place’. 26They then drew lots for them, and as the lot fell to Matthias, he was listed as one of the twelve apostles.r

1r. ‘he was listed as one of the twelve apostles’ Western Text.

NEB Acts 1:23-26
23Two names were put forward: Joseph, who was known as Barsabbas, and bore the added name of Justus; and Matthias. 24Then they prayed and said, ‘Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, 25declare which of these two thou hast chosen to receive this office of ministry and apostleship which Judas abandoned to go where he belonged.’ 26They drew lots and the lot fell on Matthias, who was then assigned a place among the twelve apostles.2.26

[2.26] Some witnesses read was then appointed a colleague of the eleven apostles.

As these bibles too errant?

 

[patrick457]

I’m not sure what you mean when you say that “I believe the scriptures to be inerrant.”
I enjoy reading the Jerusalem Bible and the New English Bible.

JB Acts 1:23-26
23Having nominated two candidates, Joseph known as Barsabbas, whose surname was Justus, and Matthias, 24they prayed, ‘Lord, you can read everyone’s heart; show us therefore which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this ministry and apostolate, which Judas abandoned to go to his proper place’. 26They then drew lots for them, and as the lot fell to Matthias, he was listed as one of the twelve apostles.r

1r. ‘he was listed as one of the twelve apostles’ Western Text.

This reminds me. Acts of the Apostles actually exists in two versions: the shorter version most of us are familiar with and which can be found in most Bibles, and a longer version (containing 10% more content) preserved only in manuscripts of the so-called Western text-type. This is how the passage reads in the Western version (words not present in the shorter version in bold):

Of the men therefore which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus Christ went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. And he put forward two, Joseph called Barnabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew of these two the one whom thou hast chosen, to take the place in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place. And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the twelve apostles.

By contrast, the reference to Barnabas and Paul as “apostles” in Acts 14:14 is omitted in the Western text.

 

[patrick457]

Bad analogy. The CatholicChurch maybe composed of different Rites but all of them are united in the Pope. Same too, the writers of scripture are all united in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not inspire any of the scripture writers to contradict another. That is why one cannot pull a verse out of scripture and ignore what other verses may say on the matter. We are not protestants, some of whose ministers do exactly that.

Tell me then where these authors contradict each other.

 

[ezeekl]

I’m not sure what you mean when you say that “I believe the scriptures to be inerrant.”
I enjoy reading the Jerusalem Bible and the New English Bible.

JB Acts 1:23-26
23Having nominated two candidates, Joseph known as Barsabbas, whose surname was Justus, and Matthias, 24they prayed, ‘Lord, you can read everyone’s heart; show us therefore which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this ministry and apostolate, which Judas abandoned to go to his proper place’. 26They then drew lots for them, and as the lot fell to Matthias, he was listed as one of the twelve apostles.r

1r. ‘he was listed as one of the twelve apostles’ Western Text.

NEB Acts 1:23-26
23Two names were put forward: Joseph, who was known as Barsabbas, and bore the added name of Justus; and Matthias. 24Then they prayed and said, ‘Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, 25declare which of these two thou hast chosen to receive this office of ministry and apostleship which Judas abandoned to go where he belonged.’ 26They drew lots and the lot fell on Matthias, who was then assigned a place among the twelve apostles.2.26

[2.26] Some witnesses read was then appointed a colleague of the eleven apostles.

As these bibles too errant?

The newer translations water down the original Greek in their attempt to make it “meaningful” to the modern audience and in the process do violence to the scriptures. The older versions stick closer to the Greek. For instance the Douay Rheims is quite clear on Acts 1:23-26:

"23 And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the **eleven **apostles.

In verse 26 how did the number eleven in the DR get changed to twelve in the NEB?

If we look at Jerome’s Vulgate of 405 AD we see Acts 1:26 written thusly [in Latin]:

" Et dederunt sortes eis, et cecidit sors super Mathiam: et annumeratus est cum **undecim **Apostolis."

I emboldened the word 'undecim’ In Latin the number one is uno and the number ten is decem. undecim is 1+10 and that is eleven not twelve. Now you tell me if your newer bible is truly inerrant.

 

[ezeekl]

Tell me then where these authors contradict each other.

I didn’t say they did. Please read what I wrote. I copied it below. Notice the sentence I underlined. They were not inspired to contradict one and therefore, they didn’t.

Originally Posted by ezeekl
Bad analogy. The CatholicChurch maybe composed of different Rites but all of them are united in the Pope. Same too, the writers of scripture are all united in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not inspire any of the scripture writers to contradict another. That is why one cannot pull a verse out of scripture and ignore what other verses may say on the matter. We are not protestants, some of whose ministers do exactly that.

 

[patrick457]

The newer translations water down the original Greek in their attempt to make it “meaningful” to the modern audience and in the process do violence to the scriptures. The older versions stick closer to the Greek. For instance the Douay Rheims is quite clear on Acts 1:23-26:

"23 And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the **eleven **apostles.

In verse 26 how did the number eleven in the DR get changed to twelve in the NEB?

If we look at Jerome’s Vulgate of 405 AD we see Acts 1:26 written thusly [in Latin]:

" Et dederunt sortes eis, et cecidit sors super Mathiam: et annumeratus est cum **undecim **Apostolis."

I emboldened the word 'undecim’ In Latin the number one is uno and the number ten is decem. undecim is 1+10 and that is eleven not twelve. Now you tell me if your newer bible is truly inerrant.

Have you read what I just wrote after that post? What we have here are two ancient versions of Acts. The shorter version which had become the standard says “eleven,” but the longer, Western version says “twelve.”

I’ll do ya a favor here: I’ll repeat it.

This reminds me. Acts of the Apostles actually exists in two versions: the shorter version most of us are familiar with and which can be found in most Bibles, and a longer version (containing 10% more content) preserved only in manuscripts of the so-called Western text-type. This is how the passage reads in the Western version (words not present in the shorter version in bold):

Of the men therefore which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus Christ went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. And he put forward two, Joseph called Barnabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew of these two the one whom thou hast chosen, to take the place in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place. And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the twelve apostles.

By contrast, the reference to Barnabas and Paul as “apostles” in Acts 14:14 is omitted in the Western text.​

So before you speak ill of newer Bibles (yeah, I know quite a number of them are a bit hokey in one way or another - but in this particular instance it’s not their fault), first consider that the ancient manuscripts themselves are the ones who differ. And before someone pipes - sure, the longer version might not be the ‘original’ version, but the fact that the reading exists suggests that at least some early Christians understood Matthias to be the twelfth apostle.

 

[patrick457]

I didn’t say they did. Please read what I wrote. I copied it below. Notice the sentence I underlined. They were not inspired to contradict one and therefore, they didn’t.

Originally Posted by ezeekl
Bad analogy. The CatholicChurch maybe composed of different Rites but all of them are united in the Pope. Same too, the writers of scripture are all united in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not inspire any of the scripture writers to contradict another. That is why one cannot pull a verse out of scripture and ignore what other verses may say on the matter. We are not protestants, some of whose ministers do exactly that.

I didn’t make myself clear back - sorry about that. What I mean is, please show me where I said or implied that these authors contradict each other.

 

[ezeekl]

Have you read what I just wrote after that post? What we have here are two ancient versions of Acts. The shorter version which had become the standard says “eleven,” but the longer, Western version says “twelve.”

I’ll do ya a favor here: I’ll repeat it.

This reminds me. Acts of the Apostles actually exists in two versions: the shorter version most of us are familiar with and which can be found in most Bibles, and a longer version (containing 10% more content) preserved only in manuscripts of the so-called Western text-type. This is how the passage reads in the Western version (words not present in the shorter version in bold):

Of the men therefore which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus Christ went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. And he put forward two, Joseph called Barnabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew of these two the one whom thou hast chosen, to take the place in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place. And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the twelve apostles.

By contrast, the reference to Barnabas and Paul as “apostles” in Acts 14:14 is omitted in the Western text.​

So before you speak ill of newer Bibles (yeah, I know quite a number of them are a bit hokey in one way or another - but in this particular instance it’s not their fault), first consider that the ancient manuscripts themselves are the ones who differ. And before someone pipes - sure, the longer version might not be the ‘original’ version, but the fact that the reading exists suggests that at least some early Christians understood Matthias to be the twelfth apostle.

Since you did me afavor then allow me to return the favor.

Please refer to the Council of Trent and specifically the Fourth session in April, 1546. In the section entitled, *“Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures’ *” the last paragraph states:

But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church."

Here the council specifically stated that the scriptures are to be “… as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition”. The Vulgate edition has eleven Apostles in Acts 1:26 not twelve. That is what the council has effectively said is the correct number of Apostles.

Furthermore, the , in the very next section entitled “Decree Concerning the Edition and the Use of the Sacred Books” states the following:

“Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,—considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,—ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many ages, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.”

so the Vulgate edition is declared to be the authentic one and “…no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.” That coming from a general council of the church, whose decrees are accepted as infallible, sort of settles it I would think.