Is Paul greater than Jesus?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JoeyWarren
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Personally, I consult every scripture that speaks of a topic when possible.

As I understand it, all scripture is inspired of God, thus equal.

Since the apostles never contradict Jesus…
 
2Peter 3:15-16

15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16
speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
 
Hello Joey Warren,

It has to do with the “faith alone” issue. The Protestants have to pave over Jesus teachings to make “faith alone” work. I think it is obvious that St. Paul is not throwing out Jesus and the Father’s commands but the “law” of circumcision and the Pharisee created “laws”.

St. Paul says,

Galatians 2:16…who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Jesus says,

NAB MAT 19:16"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
St. Paul’s writings were debating the law of circumcision and the Pharisee created Church laws and not God’s Law of the commandments.

NAB ACT 15:1

Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20"You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs."

**NAB PHI 3:5 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. (GAL 6:13)**NAB 1CO 7:19 **(St. Paul is speaking.)Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. **What matters is keeping God’s commandments.****NAB ROM 2:13 **(St. Paul is speaking.)For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; it is those who keep it who will be declared just.

NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)


. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and anguish will come upon every man who has done evil, the Jew first then the Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who has done good, likewise the Jew first, then the Greek.**NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.**Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.
 
Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
**
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.**
Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament
Workmanship (poihma). Old word from poiew with the ending -mat meaning result. In N.T. only here and Revelation 1:20. Created (ktisqenteß). First aorist passive participle of ktizw, not the original creation as in Colossians 1:16; Ephesians 3:9, but the moral and spiritual renewal in Christ, the new birth, as in Ephesians 2:15; Ephesians 4:24. For good works (epi ergoiß agaqoiß). Probably the true dative of purpose here with epi (Robertson, Grammar, p. 605). Purpose of the new creation in Christ. Which (oiß). Attraction of the relative a (accusative after prohtoimasen) to case of the antecedent ergoiß. Afore prepared (prohtoimasen). First aorist active indicative of prohtoimazw, old verb to make ready beforehand. In N.T. only here and Romans 9:23. Good works by us were included in the eternal foreordination by God. That we should walk in them (ina en autoiß peripathswmen). Expexegetic final clause explanatory of the election to good works.
bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=eph&chapter=002&verse=010&next=011&prev=009
 
Yes it is the faith alone issue.

Furthermore nowhere in the bible does it say that by Faith alone you are saved nor does it say that by Faith alone you are granted eternal life in heaven nor does it say that being saved will grant one eternal life. No where!

The gospels on the other hand address this issue.

A warning of the need for works(God’s will), just professing Jesus is lord is not enough to grant eternal life
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And the only answer in the bible about what is required for eternal life
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Then Jesus tells us of what we will be judged by in all of Matthew

Prelude to what you do the least of mine, you do to me
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
and Jesus gives a few details in

The Great Judgement
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
Tit 1:16 - They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Tit 2:7 - In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tit 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:14 - And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb 10:24 - And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

** And James hammers it home a couple of times**

Jas 2:14 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Peter defends good works

1Pe 2:12 - Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 
And finally in the Last book Jesus stresses Works.

Re 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Re 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Re 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Re 2:13 - I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Re 2:19 - I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Re 2:23 - And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Re 2:26 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Re 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 3:2 - Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Re 3:8 - I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Re 3:15 - I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Re 14:13 - And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And the nails driven in about be judged according to works

Re 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Re 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The Book of James and Revelations dispute the claim of Eternal Life by Faith Alone and that is why that evil man named Martin Luther tried to have them removed. They were detrimental to his theory.

When you die, you will be judged not by your faith aalone but of the works that faith produced. And if your faith produced no works, then woe unto thee.

Now do we want to get into the issue of Purgatory as well. Those possessing faith will have some good works and some will have bad works, and the taint of those bad works of vices and attitudes and predjudices must be purified for in the book of Revelations it says nothing unclean shall enter heaven:
Revelations 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Good day, it’s time to go to church and partake of Christ.
 
I have to admit that having been an Evangelical my whole life, I tended to avoid the Gospels, both epistles of Peter and James among other Scriptures, because they always confused me. I could not reconcile what I was reading with what I was being taught. And I did not want to give up the security of what I was being taught because it sounded too good to me (tickled my ears), so I blindly followed along. I stuck with Paul’s writings because I knew how to assimilate them into my presuppositions. My brain just skipped over anything he had to say that contradicted what I had been taught to believe, so it all worked out rather nicely for a long time. But deep down inside, I knew that something huge was missing from my Christianity, and I couldn’t shake it. I was becoming really uneasy in my own spirituality and what I was seeing around me. I began to church hop, trying to comfort myself, but couldn’t find peace.

But the hunger for the TRUTH prevailed. If you really hunger for TRUTH, no matter what it costs you in the “feel good” arena, the Holy Spirit will lead you to the fullness of it!

The freedom of not having to pick and choose my verses or which books in the Scriptures I am reading… it’s incredible! People say going to Rome is submitting to bondage, becoming a slave to a system of works, and it’s just the opposite. I don’t have to hide from half of the Scriptures anymore! You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you FREE!

To him who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

God Bless,
Jeanette
 
Daniel Marsh:
How do modern “faith alone” baptists view good works?
Good works were not really discussed that much to be honest. It was presumed that as long as you were following the outward appearance of conversion, i.e., an experience of conversion, followed by cleaning up well, learning the lingo,…that you were on the right track, or truly born again.

Works were something that most pastors had a hard time rallying the congregation to get involved in (like missions, charitable works…) because it was not considered as going hand in hand with faith.

That was my experience anyway, and I’ve been all over the board in the Evangelical world. To be fair, there were many who were truly inspired to do things that the Lord had “laid on their hearts”, but it was presumed that it was a “special” calling to be involved in that way. But on the other hand, Evangelicals are known for their huge financial givings to charities, especially in times of crisis, as are most Americans and others in well to do societies, but it is not tied in any way to a requirement for the evidence of true conversion.

Jeanette
 
One more thing

There is one scripture that equates belief to eterna life and that is
John 3:15-16: 15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life. 16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life
.

That in itself would be enough but since if have evidence of this scripture
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
so comparing the 2 we have a quandary so this is where you have to step back and examine the bible as a whole.

So “so that everyone who believes in Him” becomes this"
“so that everyone who believes in every aspect of Him”
meaning

Obey all the commandments.
Obey the new commandment that Jesus issued.
Obey all that christ taught and will teach.
Feed the hungry
Clothe the naked
Visit the sick
Visit the imprisoned
Do all commands Jesus issued
Do all directives(“Do this”) as Jesus commanded.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
etc.
etc.
etc.

This golden rule as more connotations then you can imagine.
Do unto others as you would have God do unto you.
What you do unto others you do unto Christ.
Need I go further?
 
Protestants talk about us giving too much credit to the saints and not enough to Jesus, well it seems like they jump through hoops to avoid what Christ actually talks about in order to have hyperdulia for St. Paul.

Evangelicals tend to diminish the whole 25th Chapter of St. Matthew’s Gospel, which Our Lord makes it pretty clear that Good Works are eminently important for salvation.
 
Daniel Marsh:
How do modern “faith alone” baptists view good works?
That is actually a complicated question. When I was baptist, I was taught that once you are saved then the Holy Spirit changes your heart so that you will want to do good.

For some reason very few sermons tended to be on helping the poor or visiting the sick. We did take up collections for those among us that had problems and for missions but little attention was paid to those outside of our Christian community-unless we wanted to convert them. It wasn’t that my Baptist church frowned upon good works, a few church members volunteered in town, but there was little emphasis stressed on helping your fellow human during the sermons.
 
This thread appears to be wandering aimlessly into random apologetics discussions. Thank you to all who participated, this thread is now closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top