Is Paul the anti-christ?

[famdigy]

In 2 Corinthians 12:16, Paul makes a perplexing, yet revealing, statement: “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty,** I took you in by deceit**.”

Does Christianity accept “taking in by deceit” as a means of “ministering,” and propagandizing?

The Torah, the “Law,” which Paul mocked and considered a “yoke” and “bondage,” says: “Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.” Leviticus 19:11

 

[dolphinlove]

no, muhammad is the antichrist.

 

[Eucharisted]

Islam teaches that the antichrist won’t come until the end of the world. Paul is dead and it’s not the end of the world. So your own religion defeats your attempt to attack Christianity.

 

[famdigy]

no, muhammad is the antichrist.

Dolphine,
Does Christianity accept “taking in by deceit” as a means of “ministering,” and propagandizing?
if the answer is no, how do you explain Paul’s statement: “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty, I took you in by deceit.”

 

[Booklover]

In 2 Corinthians 12:16, Paul makes a perplexing, yet revealing, statement: “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty,** I took you in by deceit**.”

Does Christianity accept “taking in by deceit” as a means of “ministering,” and propagandizing?

The Torah, the “Law,” which Paul mocked and considered a “yoke” and “bondage,” says: “Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.” Leviticus 19:11

You make a statement like this, and don’t even bother to check out your own prophet and his god who is a deceiver?

Vickie

 

[famdigy]

Islam teaches that the antichrist won’t come until the end of the world. Paul is dead and it’s not the end of the world. So your own religion defeats your attempt to attack Christianity.

Islam teaches are are many anti-christs, the final major anti-christ won’t come until the end of the world as you said, but there are many minor anti-christs. So, Nick, what do you make of Paul’s statement and why do you take it as an attack on Christianity?

 

[SalomeBintullah]

In 2 Corinthians 12:16, Paul makes a perplexing, yet revealing, statement: “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty,** I took you in by deceit**.”

Does Christianity accept “taking in by deceit” as a means of “ministering,” and propagandizing?

The Torah, the “Law,” which Paul mocked and considered a “yoke” and “bondage,” says: “Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.” Leviticus 19:11

That’s some pretty selective quoting from a pretty bad translation. Here’s what it actually says, in context (2 Corinthians 12:14-18, RSV-CE):

“Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children. I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you the more, am I to be loved the less? But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by guile. Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?” (emphasis mine)

You can see here that this is what some people in Corinth are saying about him, and he’s rebuking them for saying such falsehoods. He is not saying that he’s a deceiver. And really, famdigy, if Paul were truly the Antichrist, do you think that he would be so dumb as to spill the beans to the Christians?

 

[famdigy]

You make a statement like this, and don’t even bother to check out your own prophet and his god who is a deceiver?

Vickie

thank you for the comment Vickie, but how do you explain Paul’s statement?

 

[Eucharisted]

Islam teaches are are many anti-christs, the final major anti-christ won’t come until the end of the world as you said, but there are many minor anti-christs. So, Nick, what do you make of Paul’s statement and why do you take it as an attack on Christianity?

I take it as an attack on Christianity because you love to lie and take things out of context - oh I can cite so many examples on CAF! And that’s why I won’t tell you what I think of Paul’s statement, because I know you’ll only use it to further your attack on Christianity, and, if it were possible, to weaken Catholics’ faith.

 

[John7]

no, muhammad is the antichrist.

I agree
moohamad is the antichrist…he fits in nicely to each of these verses

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

DOES PAUL FIT INTO ANY OF THESE VERSES NO !!

 

[Bill_Pick]

In 2 Corinthians 12:16, Paul makes a perplexing, yet revealing, statement: “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty,** I took you in by deceit**.”

Does Christianity accept “taking in by deceit” as a means of “ministering,” and propagandizing?

The Torah, the “Law,” which Paul mocked and considered a “yoke” and “bondage,” says: “Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.” Leviticus 19:11

In my opinion I think MUHAMMAD is the anti-christ and in my opinion I think Paul is in heaven.

 

[famdigy]

That’s some pretty selective quoting from a pretty bad translation. Here’s what in actually says, in context (2 Corinthians 12:14-18, RSV-CE):

“Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children. I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you the more, am I to be loved the less? But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by guile. Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?” (emphasis mine)

You can see here that this is what some people in Corinth are saying about him, and he’s rebuking them for saying such falsehoods. He is not saying that he’s a deceiver. And really, famdigy, if Paul were truly the Antichrist, do you think that he would be so dumb as to spill the beans to the Christians?

Thank you, I took the quote from Bible gateway
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%209:4-18;%202%20Cor%2011:7-12;%2012:14-18;%201%20Thess%202:5&version=49#cen-NASB-29039J

can you explain why the translation I was quoting doesn’t have the words “you say”. Instead this is what it reads:

But be that as it may, I (I)did not burden you myself; nevertheless,** crafty fellow that I am, I (J)took you in by deceit.**

 

[Eucharisted]

Thank you, I took the quote from Bible gateway
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%209:4-18;%202%20Cor%2011:7-12;%2012:14-18;%201%20Thess%202:5&version=49#cen-NASB-29039J

can you explain why the translation I was quoting doesn’t have the words “you say”. Instead this is what it reads:

But be that as it may, I (I)did not burden you myself; nevertheless,** crafty fellow that I am, I (J)took you in by deceit.**

That’s some pretty selective quoting from a pretty bad translation. Here’s what in actually says, in context (2 Corinthians 12:14-18, RSV-CE):

That’s some pretty selective quoting from a pretty bad translation. Here’s what in actually says, in context (2 Corinthians 12:14-18, RSV-CE):

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Thank you, I took the quote from Bible gateway
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%209:4-18;%202%20Cor%2011:7-12;%2012:14-18;%201%20Thess%202:5&version=49#cen-NASB-29039J

can you explain why the translation I was quoting doesn’t have the words “you say”. Instead this is what it reads:

But be that as it may, I (I)did not burden you myself; nevertheless,** crafty fellow that I am, I (J)took you in by deceit.**

Good question. I’m really not sure. It may be that in the original Greek the words “you say” are implied but not actually there, and this is just the choice that that translator made.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

There’s also the possibility that Paul was saying it sarcastically. This makes sense given the questions he asks directly afterward. It’s like he’s saying, “Yeah, I’m such a deceiver. Did I ever deceive you, take advantage of you? Did any of the people I sent ever take advantage of you? Come on, Corinthians, think about it for a second!”

 

[famdigy]

here are the various translations of Pauls statements:

King James Version:
16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!

2 Corinthians 12:16 (New International Version)
16Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am,** I caught you by trickery!**

2 Corinthians 12:16 (Contemporary English Version)
16You agree that I wasn’t a burden to you. Maybe that’s because I was trying to catch you off guard and trick you.

2 Corinthians 12:16 (21st Century King James Version)
16But be it so, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Why is there a discrepency between the translations I quoted above and the one you provided. What did he really say? does anyone know?, I’m looking for the literal words which came out of his mouth and not the translations or interpretations made by others

 

[John7]

In 2 Corinthians 12:16, Paul makes a perplexing, yet revealing, statement: “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty,** I took you in by deceit**.”

TAKING SOMEONE IN ‘DOLOS’ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ANTICHRIST
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

THEREFORE THIS WHOLE THREAD IS RELEGATED TO STUPIDITY
CAN YOU READ ?!?

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Thank you, I took the quote from Bible gateway
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%209:4-18;%202%20Cor%2011:7-12;%2012:14-18;%201%20Thess%202:5&version=49#cen-NASB-29039J

can you explain why the translation I was quoting doesn’t have the words “you say”. Instead this is what it reads:

But be that as it may, I (I)did not burden you myself; nevertheless,** crafty fellow that I am, I (J)took you in by deceit.**

I did some quick research just now on the translation you were using. It’s the New American Standard Bible, and it’s a literal, word-for-word translation. So it often sacrifices clarity and meaning for the sake of literalness.

 

[jakasaki]

Here is your answer Famdigy…

Verses: [13-18]

Paul insists on his intention to continue refusing support from the community
(2 Cor 11:8-12).

In defending his practice and his motivation, he once more protests his love
(2 Cor 11:11)

and rejects the suggestion of secret self-enrichment.

He has recourse here again to language applied to his opponents earlier:
“cunning” (⇒ 2 Cor 11:3),
“deceit” (⇒ 2 Cor 11:13),
“got the better of you” (⇒ 2 Cor 11:20),
“take advantage” (⇒ 2 Cor 2:11).

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839

 

[SalomeBintullah]

here are the various translations of Pauls statements:

King James Version:
16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!

2 Corinthians 12:16 (New International Version)
16Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am,** I caught you by trickery!**

2 Corinthians 12:16 (Contemporary English Version)
16You agree that I wasn’t a burden to you. Maybe that’s because I was trying to catch you off guard and trick you.

2 Corinthians 12:16 (21st Century King James Version)
16But be it so, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Why is there a discrepency between the translations I quoted above and the one you provided. What did he really say? does anyone know?, I’m looking for the literal words which came out of his mouth and not the translations or interpretations made by others

See post #15 and post #18. Those should help.