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Holly3278
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Hi everyone. Is Pentecostalism a resurgence of the ancient Montanist heresy? 
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Nominefili
Guest
Oneness Pentecostals are modern-day Modalists.
But Pentecostal is such a broad term that it is hardly useful in theological discourse.
But Pentecostal is such a broad term that it is hardly useful in theological discourse.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Ok, well, how about speaking of Pentecostals in general? You know, the denomination that is similar to the Assembly of God denomination.Oneness Pentecostals are modern-day Modalists.
But Pentecostal is such a broad term that it is hardly useful in theological discourse.
S
sdtouchton
Guest
First Pentecostalism seeks to apply to our day what belonged only to the apostles and their day. Pentecostals teach that those extraordinary gifts given by the Lord to the apostles and others in New Testament times are intended for Christians in every age.
The purpose of the charismatic gifts was to authenticate the Apostles and their message in the early days of Christianity due to the fact that the New Testament had not yet been completed. God gave the Apostles some special gifts by which the Apostles and their message were accredited or authenticated as being of God. In New Testament times God spoke by direct revelations to His Apostles and Prophets. Signs were needed to confirm that their messages were actually from God.
Paul calls these gifts the signs of an apostle. In 2 Corinthians 10-13 Paul is defending his authority as an apostle against some who evidently were claiming that he was not a true apostle. In 2 Corinthians 12:12 Paul says, âTruly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.â Paul is saying here, âI evidenced to you my call as an apostle by such signs as were sufficient to prove to you that I am a true apostle from God.â Paul says that these signs and miracles were proof that he and his message were from God, that they authenticated his ministry as an apostle.
Now that the Apostles have passed from the scene and the Gospel has been introduced to the world and the New Testament Canon has been completed, those special sign gifts have passed away. Hebrew 2:3-4 is a clear demonstration that these special gifts have passed away. " How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed (past tense) unto us (readers) by them (the Apostles) that heard him; God also bearing them (the Apostles, not us, them) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with diverse miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his will."
Whatâs wrong with Pentecostalism? Secondly, Pentecostalism gives greater emphasis to the Holy Spirit than to the Lord Jesus Christ. The ultimate experience for Pentecostals is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and they speak much of being filled with the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and of the blessings of the Spirit-filled life and they urge men to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This emphasis is contrary to what the Bible teaches about the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
According to the Lord Jesus in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit doesnât seek to make men Spirit conscious. He makes them Christ conscious. " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
The chief function of the Holy Spirit of God is to glorify Christ and not Himself. A Spirit-filled man speaks of Christ, he glorifies Christ, he draws attention to Christ, he testifies to Christ that in all the things Christ may have the preeminence.
In Acts 1:8 the risen Lord tells us the purpose of His sending the Holy Spirit when He says: âBut ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.â At Pentecost when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit what did he preach about? Not the wonderful blessings of the Spirit-filled life! Whom did he glorify? Not the Holy Spirit. When Peter was tilled with the Spirit at Pentecost he preached Christ! Spirit-filled people are occupied with Christ!
Now how do we recognize the Holy Spiritâs presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away? The Holy Spirit today takes the things of Christ and shows them to men. He glorifies Christ and when the Holy Spirit fills men, they praise and they glorify Christ.
pbministries.org/Theology/Laurence%20Justice/embrace_pentecostalism.htm
The purpose of the charismatic gifts was to authenticate the Apostles and their message in the early days of Christianity due to the fact that the New Testament had not yet been completed. God gave the Apostles some special gifts by which the Apostles and their message were accredited or authenticated as being of God. In New Testament times God spoke by direct revelations to His Apostles and Prophets. Signs were needed to confirm that their messages were actually from God.
Paul calls these gifts the signs of an apostle. In 2 Corinthians 10-13 Paul is defending his authority as an apostle against some who evidently were claiming that he was not a true apostle. In 2 Corinthians 12:12 Paul says, âTruly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.â Paul is saying here, âI evidenced to you my call as an apostle by such signs as were sufficient to prove to you that I am a true apostle from God.â Paul says that these signs and miracles were proof that he and his message were from God, that they authenticated his ministry as an apostle.
Now that the Apostles have passed from the scene and the Gospel has been introduced to the world and the New Testament Canon has been completed, those special sign gifts have passed away. Hebrew 2:3-4 is a clear demonstration that these special gifts have passed away. " How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed (past tense) unto us (readers) by them (the Apostles) that heard him; God also bearing them (the Apostles, not us, them) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with diverse miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his will."
Whatâs wrong with Pentecostalism? Secondly, Pentecostalism gives greater emphasis to the Holy Spirit than to the Lord Jesus Christ. The ultimate experience for Pentecostals is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and they speak much of being filled with the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and of the blessings of the Spirit-filled life and they urge men to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This emphasis is contrary to what the Bible teaches about the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
According to the Lord Jesus in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit doesnât seek to make men Spirit conscious. He makes them Christ conscious. " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
The chief function of the Holy Spirit of God is to glorify Christ and not Himself. A Spirit-filled man speaks of Christ, he glorifies Christ, he draws attention to Christ, he testifies to Christ that in all the things Christ may have the preeminence.
In Acts 1:8 the risen Lord tells us the purpose of His sending the Holy Spirit when He says: âBut ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.â At Pentecost when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit what did he preach about? Not the wonderful blessings of the Spirit-filled life! Whom did he glorify? Not the Holy Spirit. When Peter was tilled with the Spirit at Pentecost he preached Christ! Spirit-filled people are occupied with Christ!
Now how do we recognize the Holy Spiritâs presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away? The Holy Spirit today takes the things of Christ and shows them to men. He glorifies Christ and when the Holy Spirit fills men, they praise and they glorify Christ.
pbministries.org/Theology/Laurence%20Justice/embrace_pentecostalism.htm
C
Cluny
Guest
Most common garden-variety Pentecostals are not so theologically developed as to be Montanists, despite the official creedal statments of denominations such as the Assemblies of God.
L
Libertarian_FL
Guest
Acts 2:17-18
17 âIn the last days,â God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servantsâmen and women alikeâ
and they will prophesy.
[NLT]
This pretty much affirms to me that God does in fact send forth His gifts through the Holy Spirit of at least prophecy. And I will note the Catholic faith has a long record of men and women performing miracles of healing, speaking to animals and casting back demons just remember the bulk of your Saints lives. Lets see I would say clear and respected examples of Godâs gifts of the spirit that your tradition seems to protect.
So its pretty clear the authority and power of the Holy Spirit is alive and well, if you have problems with that take it to God, He clearly placed such powers at the hands of those that follow Him. And why make the Holy Spirit secondary to Jesus Christ and the Father are they not all parts of the deity, the Holy Spirits work is as important as the other aspects of God.
Iâm not defending this movement I tend to think all denominations are by their nature opposed to Godâs plan but they can make a case that their authority is real. My only question for them when they Speak in Tongues its not a real language the Bible on the Pentacost clearly stated people could understand the Apostles and disciples as they preached. So gibberish seems very odd.
17 âIn the last days,â God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servantsâmen and women alikeâ
and they will prophesy.
[NLT]
This pretty much affirms to me that God does in fact send forth His gifts through the Holy Spirit of at least prophecy. And I will note the Catholic faith has a long record of men and women performing miracles of healing, speaking to animals and casting back demons just remember the bulk of your Saints lives. Lets see I would say clear and respected examples of Godâs gifts of the spirit that your tradition seems to protect.
So its pretty clear the authority and power of the Holy Spirit is alive and well, if you have problems with that take it to God, He clearly placed such powers at the hands of those that follow Him. And why make the Holy Spirit secondary to Jesus Christ and the Father are they not all parts of the deity, the Holy Spirits work is as important as the other aspects of God.
Iâm not defending this movement I tend to think all denominations are by their nature opposed to Godâs plan but they can make a case that their authority is real. My only question for them when they Speak in Tongues its not a real language the Bible on the Pentacost clearly stated people could understand the Apostles and disciples as they preached. So gibberish seems very odd.
H
Hisalone
Guest
So much miss information in one post.First Pentecostalism seeks to apply to our day what belonged only to the apostles and their day. Pentecostals teach that those extraordinary gifts given by the Lord to the apostles and others in New Testament times are intended for Christians in every age.
The purpose of the charismatic gifts was to authenticate the Apostles and their message in the early days of Christianity due to the fact that the New Testament had not yet been completed. God gave the Apostles some special gifts by which the Apostles and their message were accredited or authenticated as being of God. In New Testament times God spoke by direct revelations to His Apostles and Prophets. Signs were needed to confirm that their messages were actually from God.
Paul calls these gifts the signs of an apostle. In 2 Corinthians 10-13 Paul is defending his authority as an apostle against some who evidently were claiming that he was not a true apostle. In 2 Corinthians 12:12 Paul says, âTruly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.â Paul is saying here, âI evidenced to you my call as an apostle by such signs as were sufficient to prove to you that I am a true apostle from God.â Paul says that these signs and miracles were proof that he and his message were from God, that they authenticated his ministry as an apostle.
Now that the Apostles have passed from the scene and the Gospel has been introduced to the world and the New Testament Canon has been completed, those special sign gifts have passed away. Hebrew 2:3-4 is a clear demonstration that these special gifts have passed away. " How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed (past tense) unto us (readers) by them (the Apostles) that heard him; God also bearing them (the Apostles, not us, them) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with diverse miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his will."
Whatâs wrong with Pentecostalism? Secondly, Pentecostalism gives greater emphasis to the Holy Spirit than to the Lord Jesus Christ. The ultimate experience for Pentecostals is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and they speak much of being filled with the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and of the blessings of the Spirit-filled life and they urge men to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This emphasis is contrary to what the Bible teaches about the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
According to the Lord Jesus in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit doesnât seek to make men Spirit conscious. He makes them Christ conscious. " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
The chief function of the Holy Spirit of God is to glorify Christ and not Himself. A Spirit-filled man speaks of Christ, he glorifies Christ, he draws attention to Christ, he testifies to Christ that in all the things Christ may have the preeminence.
In Acts 1:8 the risen Lord tells us the purpose of His sending the Holy Spirit when He says: âBut ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.â At Pentecost when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit what did he preach about? Not the wonderful blessings of the Spirit-filled life! Whom did he glorify? Not the Holy Spirit. When Peter was tilled with the Spirit at Pentecost he preached Christ! Spirit-filled people are occupied with Christ!
Now how do we recognize the Holy Spiritâs presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away? The Holy Spirit today takes the things of Christ and shows them to men. He glorifies Christ and when the Holy Spirit fills men, they praise and they glorify Christ.
pbministries.org/Theology/Laurence%20Justice/embrace_pentecostalism.htm
There is nowhere to begin.
C
Cluny
Guest
<<17 âIn the last days,â God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servantsâmen and women alikeâ
and they will prophesy.
[NLT]>>
The real meaning of this passage (quoting Joel) is that weâve been in the Last Days since Pentecost of 29 AD (or thereabouts).
<<Iâm not defending this movement I tend to think all denominations are by their nature opposed to Godâs plan>>
Since there is only ONE pre-denominational Church, and the one you attend IS denominational, why do you attend a church that you believe by its nature is opposed to Godâs plan?
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servantsâmen and women alikeâ
and they will prophesy.
[NLT]>>
The real meaning of this passage (quoting Joel) is that weâve been in the Last Days since Pentecost of 29 AD (or thereabouts).
<<Iâm not defending this movement I tend to think all denominations are by their nature opposed to Godâs plan>>
Since there is only ONE pre-denominational Church, and the one you attend IS denominational, why do you attend a church that you believe by its nature is opposed to Godâs plan?
B
buonhead
Guest
âNow how do we recognize the Holy Spiritâs presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away?â
Dear Sdtouchton,
I see you list your religion as Catholic ⌠but why do you give a fundamentalist answer to the question of the gifts of the Spirit & provide a link to a Baptist site?
That is not the âCatholic Answerâ. The Catholic Church does not deny the gifts of the Spirit ⌠even the so-called charismatic or sign gifts.
Peace,
BH
Dear Sdtouchton,
I see you list your religion as Catholic ⌠but why do you give a fundamentalist answer to the question of the gifts of the Spirit & provide a link to a Baptist site?
That is not the âCatholic Answerâ. The Catholic Church does not deny the gifts of the Spirit ⌠even the so-called charismatic or sign gifts.
Peace,
BH
P
PaulDupre
Guest
I donât know about all the other religions out there, but for us Catholics the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well.
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