Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

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Randy_Carson said:
I know.

But this is what the “low information” Catholic, Protestant or Atheist is hearing.

Hardly a day goes by when we’re not having to walk something back or dig for the deeper meaning in a statement or action.

He washed whose feet?
He said what to a homosexual?
Atheists just need to follow their consciences?

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith must have its hands full putting out clarifications.
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Why are you so concerned about what “low information” people MIGHT be hearing. They also are hearing that we worship Mary and our priests rape all our kids.

We can’t worry about what people might be hearing. It’s clear even in the mainstream media that Pope Francis has not changed the church teaching at all.

The only place I hear sniveling about it is here.

Now gird up your loins and go preach the good news!
 
Randy_Carson said:
I know.

But this is what the “low information” Catholic, Protestant or Atheist is hearing.

Hardly a day goes by when we’re not having to walk something back or dig for the deeper meaning in a statement or action.

He washed whose feet?
He said what to a homosexual?
Atheists just need to follow their consciences?

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith must have its hands full putting out clarifications.
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Honestly, who are the ones demanding clarification and deeper meaning?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Can you imagine where our country would be with regard to abortion if Catholics had not dedicated themselves to overcoming this evil? Is this one of the “small-minded issues” that Pope Francis was referring to in his recent press interview?
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Where would the US be with respect to abortion? Looking at it as a Canadian where that battle was lost some years ago, with all due respect I see that the US essentially has abortion on demand much as we do with the possible exception of degrees of funding.

And this is in spite of 8 years of Republican rule prior to Obama. I’m not well versed on the subtleties of US politics but from where I sit, it sure seems like little has changed in the US. Perhaps you could provide examples. As someone adopted in infancy I do have very strong feelings against abortion but:
Randy_Carson said:
As a conservative Catholic, what I’m hearing is that we’ve been doing it all wrong. That’s probably not what he means…but that’s the message I’m getting so far.
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Well whatever we’re doing doesn’t appear to be working. What I see Francis emphasizing is that among those undergoing an abortion, there is a sinner that bears the image of Christ whether we like or not. And often, it can be a poor, scared young woman barely older than a girl tha perhaps may be facing pressure from he parents and boyfriend and perhaps even abuse. He wants us to reach out to people like her on her territory, on “ground zero” on the war against abortion. I’m not saying that abortion activists don’t already do that, but it’s clear to me he wants a change of emphasis and for us to work as much or more on the socio-economic issues involved as we do on the legal aspects.

In a sense, yes, he’s saying we’re doing it wrong. Not that abortion is suddenly fine and dandy, but that perhaps we should try a more loving approach given that the legalistic one has had such mediocre results.
Randy_Carson said:
hope that your expressions of optimism are well-founded, but I can’t get over the sense that this Father is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home…you’re fine wherever you are. I’ll send more money.”

:o
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He isn’t saying that at all. He is saying we are all sinners and prodigal sons and daughters, and that the Church should welcome us home like the father did to his son. It’s important to note that in that parable, the father made no demands on the son. He was just so thrilled to see him again. What the Holy Father wants is a mass prodigal return and a beginning of a spiritual journey of conversion.

As one who has been there, done that, I can only say that it is grace, and not rule enforcement, that fuels my ongoin conversion. It starts with a single step, and it grows with our reciprocal unconditional love by God and our returning that love by our conversion.

St. Benedict knew that 1500 years ago and it’s why his Rule emphasizes growth in humility and why monks profess stabilitiy, obedience and ongoing conversion
 
I’ve read through the thread, and i’m a bit disconcerted. It’s not about the Holy Father’s interview. Despite our claims of orthodoxy and traditions, we still can’t seem to trust God and His faithful servant.
 
Jon_S said:
Why are you so concerned about what “low information” people MIGHT be hearing. They also are hearing that we worship Mary and our priests rape all our kids.

We can’t worry about what people might be hearing. It’s clear even in the mainstream media that Pope Francis has not changed the church teaching at all.

The only place I hear sniveling about it is here.

Now gird up your loins and go preach the good news!
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Preach to whom?

In another thread about Francis’ comments on following one’s conscience, a poster wrote:

“I have spent the last 15 years trying to convince my wife’s parents that Catholics do not believe in a works gospel. Now, I find out that it’s all works.”

His point, of course, was that Francis told atheists that it’s what they do and not what they believe that determines their eternal reward. We could go round and round about this, but the bottom line is what the unsaved* hear*.

I’m not convinced that what they’re hearing is: “Jesus loves you. You need to become a follower of Christ.” I think what they’re hearing is: “You’re okay just the way you are. Don’t pay any attention to the person trying to tell you that you’re a sinner in need of salvation.”

Why preach taking up one’s cross or dying to self when following the dictates of one’s conscience is sufficient?
 
OraLabora said:
ongoing conversion
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This you are saying is very much in my culture…It’s like we are all travelers and traveling.
So this is probably why I tend to hear what he is saying as I would to a " personal trainer",and excuse my habitual lack of proper words to express myself.,and a coach training his team. Every player needs training,until the season is over,at least on earth…cause ultimately,we have to make it to Heaven all together,or at least it is my wish and my prayer ,cause He loves us.
Thanks.
 
clem456 said:
Honestly, who are the ones demanding clarification and deeper meaning?
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Faithful Catholics who are stunned by what they’re hearing.

If you don’t believe me, just wander around the web for an hour or so. Even Catholic Answers staffers like Jimmy Akin and Michele Arnold are trying to explain the context of what we’re seeing and hearing.

Michele is on the home page just today, for example.
 
OraLabora said:
Where would the US be with respect to abortion? Looking at it as a Canadian where that battle was lost some years ago, with all due respect I see that the US essentially has abortion on demand much as we do with the possible exception of degrees of funding.
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A quick fact check would reveal that abortion clinics are closing at an increasing rate.

christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/september/abortion-clinics-closing-planned-parenthood-abby-johnson.html

Who led that fight? Unitarians?
 
This thread truly saddens me.

The pride, and selfishness.

If I didn’t know better, by the amount of people that trust their own authority over the church’s and the Pope’s I would think this was a Protestant forum.

It’s clear people just don’t get it. They just don’t get what being a disciple of Christ is about. . 😦
 
clem456 said:
Honestly, who are the ones demanding clarification and deeper meaning?
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Randy_Carson said:
Faithful Catholics who are stunned by what they’re hearing.

.
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Exactly. That’s a big part of this Pope’s message so far. To awaken (stun as you say) faithful Catholics into further conversion from laity to bishop.
Whose responsibility is it to read the Pope’s messages in their entirety, to pray about the things we don’t understand, and talk about it with competent pastors?
“1000 difficulties don’t make a single doubt”.
 
Jon_S said:
This thread truly saddens me.

The pride, and selfishness.

If I didn’t know better, by the amount of people that trust their own authority over the church’s and the Pope’s I would think this was a Protestant forum.

It’s clear people just don’t get it. They just don’t get what being a disciple of Christ is about. . 😦
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Pope Francis himself says often that discernment takes time. The first thing that pops into one’s mind is not always the right thing; he himself always suspects his first reaction. I don’t think he’d be shocked to know that he says things that good Catholics are shocked to hear. Being shocked is OK! The main question is whether or not they keep listening, whether or not they continue to question what he means and how what he says is an expression of the truth. That is all he would ask–that is, that faithful Catholics pose Mary’s question, “How is this to be understood, how can this be?” and not Zechariah’s question, “How do you expect me to accept this message, how am I to know this?”
 
Jesus’ challenging words when sending his faithful disciples come to mind here. From Matthew 10: This passage is not about having a safe and self-assured spiritual niche. It predicts dissension even among the faithful.
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
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“ ‘a man against his father,
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a daughter against her mother,
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a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
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36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.
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Jon_S said:
This thread truly saddens me.

The pride, and selfishness.

If I didn’t know better, by the amount of people that trust their own authority over the church’s and the Pope’s I would think this was a Protestant forum.

It’s clear people just don’t get it. They just don’t get what being a disciple of Christ is about. . 😦
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agnes theresa:
If they are “stunned” by hearing the Pope say that we should live the Gospel message first, that is simply appalling.
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Why?

I think some people have legitimate concerns.

It’s not something to worry about ultimately, but I think to single out Catholics on here who aren’t so overly optimistic or do not have positive outlooks from the interview aren’t necessarily prideful.

The Catholic Church’s mission does not , nor does it ,

The pope needs our constant filial prayers and obedience, but when Pope Francis disapproved of a statue made of him, that means he likely would not like the attempts to overly focus on his individual charism and guilt others for not following it.
While it’s not good to constantly say, “the pope needs to” it’s also not good to get mad at others who may have disliked the effectiveness of the Pope’s interview in an honest way.

Randy is right about the reactions of those outside the Church, and the interview did confuse a lot of people, and those Catholics who read it entirely for themselves could see positive aspects as well as some negative ones. This was an interview between two Jesuits, not a circumspect thorough outline of how to evangelize.

What’s more glaring is the attempts of others to get others to group think, with this attempt to generalize an overly optimistic spin of his interview rather than an evenhanded take of the reality of it.

He is the vicar of Christ, not Christ. The visible head of the Church, not Christ. If some want to say they had a problem with the interview, so be it. Shaming them is wrong.

One need not be offended by it and then judge them as if they are prideful, when it’s possible they are not. Steadfast Pro-lifers who reacted emotionally last week did just that, they weren’t prideful or placing themselves above the pope.
A caller last friday, wasn’t reprimanded by the Hosts, for questioning the Pope’s media interaction, when he was clearly upset, and the priest just said the Pope sometimes shoots from the hip.

While it’s good to prevent oneself from treating the Pope as if he was just another public representative or any ol’ leader – It’s good to not build up a cult of personality around the Pope to the point of browbeating others for not expressing an outward show of perpetual positivity about the pope’s approach. That is not what the papacy is about, and that is not what we are supposed to do as laity.

Whether one prefers Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict or now Pope Francis is irrelevant. That is not what the papacy is about.

I even see some who intentionally or not, use Francis on these threads to attack JPII, and Pope Benedict.
 
Randy_Carson said:
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith must have its hands full putting out clarifications.
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Why? Pope Francis is very clear in what he has said. If anyone isn’t clear then all they have to do is look at the transcripts of what he has said. What he has said is pretty clear plain speech, and is fully in line with orthodox Catholic doctrine. Everything Pope Francis has said can be found within the current Catechism, from welcoming homosexuals to the possibility of atheists achieving salvation.

What we don’t need is the CDF (or anyone else) saying, “Pope Francis may have said that, but what he really meant was this…”

Take the man at his word. He is our Pope and he is guided by the Holy Spirit. The media will put enough spin on his words as it is, what we don’t need is the CDF (or any other Church departments) putting their own spin on the Pope’s words in order to appease certain elements with our own Church who feel challenged (and a little uncomfortable) by the elements of Church teaching that our Pope is emphasising.

Pope Francis means exactly what he says, his words do not need clarification from anyone else.
 
clem456 said:
Jesus’ challenging words when sending his faithful disciples come to mind here. From Matthew 10: This passage is not about having a safe and self-assured spiritual niche. It predicts dissension even among the faithful.
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That passage is relevant to the interview. The multipage threads was a result of some Catholics sensing that the divisions amongst Catholic families would remain, because they are aware of their own fellow Catholics who live in sin, abusing the interview to rationalize their sin, while still going to Church.

That some Catholics did not get it, and instead attacked those for having a negative reaction to the interview, further illustrates the reality, that wills will be divided.
 
Veridical16 said:
Why?

I think some people have legitimate concerns.

It’s not something to worry about ultimately, but I think to single out Catholics on here who aren’t so overly optimistic or do not have positive outlooks from the interview aren’t necessarily prideful.

The Catholic Church’s mission does not , nor does it ,

The pope needs our constant filial prayers and obedience, but when Pope Francis disapproved of a statue made of him, that means he likely would not like the attempts to overly focus on his individual charism and guilt others for not following it.
While it’s not good to constantly say, “the pope needs to” it’s also not good to get mad at others who may have disliked the effectiveness of the Pope’s interview in an honest way.

Randy is right about the reactions of those outside the Church, and the interview did confuse a lot of people, and those Catholics who read it entirely for themselves could see positive aspects as well as some negative ones. This was an interview between two Jesuits, not a circumspect thorough outline of how to evangelize.

What’s more glaring is the attempts of others to get others to group think, with this attempt to generalize an overly optimistic spin of his interview rather than an evenhanded take of the reality of it.

He is the vicar of Christ, not Christ. The visible head of the Church, not Christ. If some want to say they had a problem with the interview, so be it. Shaming them is wrong.

One need not be offended by it and then judge them as if they are prideful, when it’s possible they are not. Steadfast Pro-lifers who reacted emotionally last week did just that, they weren’t prideful or placing themselves above the pope.
A caller last friday, wasn’t reprimanded by the Hosts, for questioning the Pope’s media interaction, when he was clearly upset, and the priest just said the Pope sometimes shoots from the hip.

While it’s good to prevent oneself from treating the Pope as if he was just another public representative or any ol’ leader – It’s good to not build up a cult of personality around the Pope to the point of browbeating others for not expressing an outward show of perpetual positivity about the pope’s approach. That is not what the papacy is about, and that is not what we are supposed to do as laity.

Whether one prefers Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict or now Pope Francis is irrelevant. That is not what the papacy is about.

I even see some who intentionally or not, use Francis on these threads to attack JPII, and Pope Benedict.
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First of all I never said I was angry. I said it saddened me.

Seeing unnecessary divisions within the body of Christ saddens me.

I don’t place the Pope above Christ, nor to I take everything he says as an infallible statement to follow blindly.

That said, he is the Bishop of Rome. He has been in the church a long time.

HE HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD SPANNING DECADES FIGHTING ABORTION AND GAY MARRIAGE

THE VERY NEXT DAY HE SPOKE STRONGLY AGAINST ABORTION

So yeah it saddens me to see so many Catholics giving the media spin so much weight. Lending credibility to the media lies rather than giving both the benefit of the doubt to the new pope as well as an effort to understand a new strategy.

Change in strategies are hard but often necessary
 
Randy_Carson said:
Can you imagine where our country would be with regard to abortion if Catholics had not dedicated themselves to overcoming this evil? Is this one of the “small-minded issues” that Pope Francis was referring to in his recent press interview?

As a conservative Catholic, what I’m hearing is that we’ve been doing it all wrong. That’s probably not what he means…but that’s the message I’m getting so far.

I hope that your expressions of optimism are well-founded, but I can’t get over the sense that this Father is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home…you’re fine wherever you are. I’ll send more money.”

:o
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Randy,

I say this as one who has over the years found your posts to be generally right on and informative. I think perhaps it is your hearing. I can’t understand from reading the interview why you would get the feeling he is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home”.
I just don’t see this. I think he’s saying that for a good portion of people today half the battle is just getting the wounded home so that they can be healed. To strain the example a bit maybe–there are a good number of people who were never home, never took their inheritance and squandered it. They have been deeply wounded by the world and they need to be called their true home and healed–only when they experience the love of Christ and see his sacrifice for them will they understand the need to repent. Additionally, I would think your concerns would be somewhat allayed by the section addressed to confessors where he clearly calls out those confessors who dismiss sin as not sin. I think your taking afront where none is to be found. Isn’t the question how we help people grow in holiness? How best lead them out of their sin? I don’t go to confession to be condemned–I go there to seek forgiveness for my sins–for the ones I continually struggle with–a good confessor helps me to over come these sins helps by providing guidance.

Do you disagree with the Popes analysis that we it is not prudent to treat high cholesterol before we stop the stop the blood gushing from the gaping wound in the leg? Many conservative Catholics have been doing what the Pope suggests all along. Acting in Charity and extending Christs mercy and calling one to a holy life are not somehow contrary to being a “conservative” Catholic. I dislike the labels conservative or liberal–either one is Catholic trying to adhere to Church teaching or one is not. I don’t find the labels helpful.

I guess I just don’t hear the Pope calling us to anything that other Popes have not, indeed to what Jesus and the Apostles called us to. Granted I am not as smart as you but I pray that my ears and my heart are open and that I am not deceived.

The Peace of Christ,
Mark
 
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