Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[Seamus_L]

A surprising number of ‘prodigals’ have never left. You don’t have to look that far to find cohabiting couples, homosexuals, users of contraceptives, those who are pro-choice, etc who will tell you quite openly that they have no plans to repent (though they would never use such a word) and that they must be accepted exactly as they are. The question that remains to be answered, is whether or not such people will be receiving even more encouragement to continue just as they are.

 

[jmcrae]

A surprising number of ‘prodigals’ have never left. You don’t have to look that far to find cohabiting couples, homosexuals, users of contraceptives, those who are pro-choice, etc who will tell you quite openly that they have no plans to repent (though they would never use such a word) and that they must be accepted exactly as they are. The question that remains to be answered, is whether or not such people will be receiving even more encouragement to continue just as they are.

That sort of thing has been going on for 2,000 years. But they have a better chance of finding Jesus if they come to Mass regularly than if they don’t.

 

[Brendan_64]

That sort of thing has been going on for 2,000 years. But they have a better chance of finding Jesus if they come to Mass regularly than if they don’t.

Yes indeed.

They’re hardly going to change their ways if we refuse them entry to our churches until they repent their ways. We should welcome them in, make them feel like our friends and brothers, and then trust in the Holy Spirit to guide them to the correct path.

 

[Veridical16]

But his father didn’t know that yet,when he ran out to meet him. He loved his son because he was his son.

That’s poor eisegesis. The context of the story is repentance and finding lost sheep. Not a feel good story about the modern world’s assumption of ‘Unconditional love.’
*
“My son was dead, and now is alive again” *

It’s about spiritual death; and the father recognizes the son is asking for spiritual life of the soul again. How could he not know the son was contrite.

The son returning to the house of the father was his contrition.

 

[Jon_S_1]

That’s poor eisegesis. The context of the story is repentance and finding lost sheep. Not a feel good story about the modern world’s assumption of ‘Unconditional love.’
*
“My son was dead, and now is alive again” *

It’s about spiritual death; and the father recognizes the son is asking for spiritual life of the soul again. How could he not know the son was contrite.

The son returning to the house of the father was his contrition.

Actually the father loved him while he was gone, and must have been hoping praying and watching for his return. The love never ended. Had he not repented he could not reside in the fathers house but the love was unconditional. Especially with the context of the great insult the prodigal paid his father by taking his early inheritance, wishing his father dead, it shows the radical love the father has.

God, loves ALL of us unconditionally. He loves us so much he died for ALL of us knowing many would reject his gift.

He loves us so much he allows us to choose him…

Or ourselves.

 

[Veridical16]

A surprising number of ‘prodigals’ have never left. You don’t have to look that far to find cohabiting couples, homosexuals, users of contraceptives, those who are pro-choice, etc who will tell you quite openly that they have no plans to repent (though they would never use such a word) and that they must be accepted exactly as they are. The question that remains to be answered, is whether or not such people will be receiving even more encouragement to continue just as they are.

They will and they are. It is a sad state of affairs when being a faithful Catholic in America, makes you feel like you’re following Gnosticism… Licentiousness and private judgment have isolated everyone. The only sin in today’s America, is to acknowledge openly that “sin exists” or to suggest someone “not sin”

It’s both a result of Martin Luther’s view on human nature , and this kind of protestantism, “I’m saved anyway, God will forgive me” combined with its offchute secular humanism, who have their own take,* “I’m not damned anyway, so sin like mad there is no God to ask for forgiveness” *

Then there’s the third option of Catholics with malformed consciences. “MY GOD , wouldn’t see this as a sin…how can it be a sin??” so they do it.

 

[Jon_S_1]

They will and they are. It is a sad state of affairs when being a faithful Catholic in America, makes you feel like you’re following Gnosticism… Licentiousness and private judgment have isolated everyone. The only sin in today’s America, is to acknowledge openly that “sin exists” or to suggest someone “not sin”

It’s both a result of Martin Luther’s view on human nature , and this kind of protestantism, “I’m saved anyway, God will forgive me” combined with its offchute secular humanism, who have their own take,* “I’m not damned anyway, so sin like mad there is no God to ask for forgiveness” *

Then there’s the third option of Catholics with malformed consciences. “MY GOD , wouldn’t see this as a sin…how can it be a sin??” so they do it.

And the devil rejoices.

We just need to remember. It’s hard enough for us to enter into life. It’s hard for us to follow Christ. So don’t worry about everyone else. It’s between them and God. We live like he commands and witness in word and deed.

Judgement pride and anger only distance us from becoming Saints.

 

[Veridical16]

Actually the father loved him while he was gone, and must have been hoping praying and watching for his return. The love never ended. Had he not repented he could not reside in the fathers house but the love was unconditional. Especially with the context of the great insult the prodigal paid his father by taking his early inheritance, wishing his father dead, it shows the radical love the father has.

God, loves ALL of us unconditionally. He loves us so much he died for ALL of us knowing many would reject his gift.

He loves us so much he allows us to choose him…

Or ourselves.

You are right also. I think my concern was there has been an abuse of the idea of “unconditional love” in today’s world.

For many parents today feel they’re obligated to “unconditional love” and will say he wants his child to be happy no matter what the state of his soul is in, and I do not think that is the love God has for us, since to love is to will the “Good for the beloved” that’s real love. Not an enabling love that many think the Lord’s mercy is now…

It’s almost an incorporation of the “once saved, always saved” presumption.

St. Maximilian Kolbe had a sibling mired in sin, and no doubt he was to love him always, as God does, but that does not mean, he and his mother were “okay with it” and happy about it, because they loved them unconditionally. It means that while in this life, we hope and pray that they return to life and seek the mercy of the Lord in the end.

Not accepting of this contentedness that just because the person exists, we leave them to their own devices in some sort of static presence of God’s unconditional love.

Families are divided today as Jesus said they would be. I think it’s important that those who have a brother or sister or son or daughter, not get fooled into thinking that the Lord’s mercy asks for a false tolerance rooted in a misunderstanding of “unconditional love.”

 

[Brendan_64]

Families are divided today as Jesus said they would be. I think it’s important that those who have a brother or sister or son or daughter, not get fooled into thinking that the Lord’s mercy asks for a false tolerance rooted in a misunderstanding of “unconditional love.”

And it would also be wrong to close your doors to an erring family member and only welcome them back as a family member once they had changed their ways.

 

[holyrood]

Yes indeed.

They’re hardly going to change their ways if we refuse them entry to our churches until they repent their ways. We should welcome them in, make them feel like our friends and brothers, and then trust in the Holy Spirit to guide them to the correct path.

Has any such person been refused entry to a Catholic church?

As to the original question, do the pope’s words make me feel like the prodigal son–no.

I feel as if I was there with the father gladly helping kill the fatted calf, glad to see my brother come home, and the father turned and slapped me (and millions of other Catholics) in the face and accused me of doing things I never did.

Obsessed? Small-minded? When was I obsessed and small-minded about abortion and homosexuality? When I took a pregnant girl into my home after her parents kicked her out? When I am a loving and accepting friend week in and week out to several friends in particular who are gay, and accept them as they are, and hold my tongue and act as the peacemaker when they trash my faith, understanding where they’ve been in life, and praying for them?

I posted a link to a site with a good discussion of this that I thought perhaps helped shed better light on his words, but honestly, to have even the appearance of the pope having this opinion is as close as I’ve ever come to walking away from the Catholic Church.

I’ll re-emphasize: I’m in full agreement with welcoming everyone into church. I always have been. I’m in full agreement that there’s more to the Catholic faith than abortion, homosexuality, and birth control. I always have been, and the Church IS doing those other things. My problem is the feeling that millions of Catholics have been falsely, very unjustly, accused of things they never did, said, felt, or thought.

 

[Veridical16]

I agree. When I sinned I never felt good about it. But, now we have the culture telling us not to feel guilty about our sins. We have militant atheists all the way to Mega Church Protestants saying, don’t worry about sin.** My Evangelical Mother tells me God can’t see a Christian’s sins**? I’m like, how do they come up with this stuff?

There is an unfortunate occurrence with some protestants and evangelicals - (there are no doubt thsoe who strive to keep the commandments) , who get caught up into the idea that they “can’t help sinning” and Jesus saved them already.

I learned this when I used to not understand and ignored the sacraments when I was younger. Only when I grew in my faith and started to return to the sacramental life of the Church there exists a supernatural state of grace, and state of mortal sin, because when one really repents, he can see clearer , when converting away from the habits of sin, due to the graces from God.

It appears the Holy Father has sat down at the table with the tax collectors and the prostitutes of our time. “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” The bottom line will be: is it followed up with, “Go and Sin No More.” If it is not,** I agree with you that it won’t be fruitful at all. **If it is, it will be true Christianity.

If it’s the former, I wouldn’t be so troubled , I’d just keep pleading more with the Lord for it just displays the humanness of our Popes.
I saw many comments due to the media sensationalism, how some protestants commented they’re glad “they don’t have to be obedient to anyone”

, I think that indicates to me, that one can either choose tor choose to persevere when the enemy presents these “discouragements.” I said to myself, even though I have qualms about the Pope’s recent evangelization approach, to see some statements that say "I am free from being under the guidance a man "

that kind of thinking is one of pride.

It’s an act of humility to acknowledge the authority, as well as to go to the saints with your prayer. So I can see where the life of the Church, within the Church, if we look for it, provides a perfecting of the virtue of humility, that can be stilted when relying on one’s own spiritual individual authority, when outside the Church.

James 4:6 “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

I believe that’s what the Papacy the Magisterium, and the Communion of Saints can do for one growing closer to the faith, because while you can acknowledge God by yourself, you get confronted with acknowledging you are lesser to others.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Has any such person been refused entry to a Catholic church?

As to the original question, do the pope’s words make me feel like the prodigal son–no.

I feel as if I was there with the father gladly helping kill the fatted calf, glad to see my brother come home, and the father turned and slapped me (and millions of other Catholics) in the face and accused me of doing things I never did.

Obsessed? Small-minded? When was I obsessed and small-minded about abortion and homosexuality? When I took a pregnant girl into my home after her parents kicked her out? When I am a loving and accepting friend week in and week out to several friends in particular who are gay, and accept them as they are, and hold my tongue and act as the peacemaker when they trash my faith, understanding where they’ve been in life, and praying for them?

I posted a link to a site with a good discussion of this that I thought perhaps helped shed better light on his words, but honestly, to have even the appearance of the pope having this opinion is as close as I’ve ever come to walking away from the Catholic Church.

I’ll re-emphasize: I’m in full agreement with welcoming everyone into church. I always have been. I’m in full agreement that there’s more to the Catholic faith than abortion, homosexuality, and birth control. I always have been, and the Church IS doing those other things. My problem is the feeling that millions of Catholics have been falsely, very unjustly, accused of things they never did, said, felt, or thought.

I am with you - thanks for this.

 

[Veridical16]

I once had a habitual sin that I was struggling with. I had other sins as well but because my conscious was immature, I was unaware of them. I went to confession weekly to deal with my habit and, as I did the Holy Spirit was able to work on conscious and, I became more aware of my sins than before and over time my confessions became more complete. **All of this happened without others pointing out my faults. **

You are definitely right about having a merciful attitude towards those you see who sin as well. Yet there is a distinction, between one’s private sins, and one of a public sinner.

The Lord is clear in scriptures how we are to try to plead with getting our brother back in right relation with God in their lives – but you are right, we are to pray for those who may be offending the Lord publicly , whether in front of you, or one who is like Nancy Pelosi.

On the other side, however the distinction between one who has personal sins, and one who sins openly, are why some have been troubled by the Holy Father’s freewheeling comments the past few weeks about how we are to reach these lost sheep.

The sin of sodom for instance – while we are to love the person even more so because of its graveness [It along with usury are one of the four sins that cry out to heaven] because its against nature – and I did not understand this, until I could see, its destructiveness. When one persists openly and requests they be accepted for it. It provides a temptation to those around them, those who encourage the individual and enable them. The result then affects those around them directly, to grow a tolerance to sin in general, when one persists in it around others . It makes those who put up with it, look at one’s own personal sins as no big deal as well.
Those who are not in a state of grace, are easily influenced to develop a poor conscience or understanding of the reality of sin, because of this behavior of encouragement and false tolerance.

It’s precisely why the contraceptive culture has promoted the allowance of “gay marriage” and the false compassion towards public sinners. There is a built of tolerance for instance, amongst many who also are not living a good life either whether promiscuously, , that leads to permissiveness of either the parents or the friend, who also are mired in their own sinful lifestyle.
That’s why many Americans lost their nerve in preserving marriage, from institutionalized divorce, contraception and cohabitation, because their nature tells them they would be hypocrites to go along with the Church’s stance combined with the fact that , they have no point of reference anymore, as who can they turn to guidance? The presidents? Corrupted Clergy?

who else but God can know them to point them out.

God would not need to have established his Church, or have a clergy,
Matthew 18 *

h “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16* i If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17j If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
*

It might be a mistake to feel one can never rebuke your brother or sister openly or directly; To never disapprove of what one can witness, is not good for the person. To just say, because we know how bad of a sinner we are, or have been too, it’s better to shy away. I think it’s incomplete and can lead to being in the wrong.

It’s can give the temptation to take the easy way out, and go along to get along.
It doesn’t make one a hypocrite because he is a sinner if that person is a penitent. Every saint had a past and every sinner has a future.
Jesus said remove the mote from one’s eye, and then after doing so, to go and help them remove theirs.
We are merciful because we have no choice, because of the one who gave us mercy first — and in thanksgiving to God, we show that mercy for the dignity of our neighbors by sometimes , having to forgo niceties when they sin openly. We start by prayer, but we can’t always rule out that we might have to address the one who is sinning directly in a tactful manner if the sinner is disposed to being asked to come back to God.

 

[agnes_therese]

I feel as if I was there with the father gladly helping kill the fatted calf, glad to see my brother come home, and the father turned and slapped me (and millions of other Catholics) in the face and accused me of doing things I never did.

Obsessed? Small-minded? When was I obsessed and small-minded about abortion and homosexuality? When I took a pregnant girl into my home after her parents kicked her out? When I am a loving and accepting friend week in and week out to several friends in particular who are gay, and accept them as they are, and hold my tongue and act as the peacemaker when they trash my faith, understanding where they’ve been in life, and praying for them?

I posted a link to a site with a good discussion of this that I thought perhaps helped shed better light on his words, but honestly, to have even the appearance of the pope having this opinion is as close as I’ve ever come to walking away from the Catholic Church.

I’ll re-emphasize: I’m in full agreement with welcoming everyone into church. I always have been. I’m in full agreement that there’s more to the Catholic faith than abortion, homosexuality, and birth control. I always have been, and the Church IS doing those other things. My problem is the feeling that millions of Catholics have been falsely, very unjustly, accused of things they never did, said, felt, or thought.

In the first place, the Pope said “The church** sometimes** has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules.” SOMETIMES. How is that “slapping you in the face and accusing you of things you never did”?

And then he said: “The church’s ministers must be merciful, take responsibility for the people and accompany them like the good Samaritan, who washes, cleans and raises up his neighbor. This is pure Gospel.” Which is exactly what you did when you took in the pregnant girl, when you’ve been a fried to your gay friends.

He says everyone should be doing what you’ve done, and that’s “slapping you in the face”?

 

[Veridical16]

And it would also be wrong to close your doors to an erring family member and only welcome them back as a family member once they had changed their ways.

Where did I say to do that? Don’t put words in my mouth.

If you have a problem with what I said above, you are mistaken for it and need to re-read it.
Because it should not irked anyone, unless they have a wrong outlook on the message of the Church themselves. i.e. asking for those to repent implies if they don’t you “close the doors”

There is no closing the doors from the Church. For every soul that while STILL alive on Earth – for a Joseph Stalin or a Hitler still had opportunity to seek the Lord’s mercy.
No Church Member has the ability to close the door on someone while on Earth. Because Jesus does not do so. As CS Lewis said to the effect* Hell is a door locked from the inside.* The sinner does it himself if on his deathbed if he still does not repent, and his repentance would require extraordinary graces.

My comments are about false tolerance. NOBODY said that in mercy, means you SHUN the person in general. You pray for them in suffering, but you don’t go around acting as if everything is peachy in what you see, with this* “I’m okay, you’re okay”* attitude. You bear their sins.

Knowing the reality of sin. You do as Jesus did. We weren’t worthy to even walk and eat with Jesus, yet he did so, and he suffered the offenses of those who even were penitent from even their most venial sins, such as the Apostles themselves in silence. (We can see it when Jesus did have to rebuke them from time to time)

There is a lot of false charity or false compassion that is promoted among the Church in america. Watch Fulton Sheen’s False Compassion video.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7pKqfhWeo

.
It all boils down to when that person is no longer disposed to whatever you’ve been trying to do to get them to come to their sense. What does treat them like a publican or tax collector mean?

It means you have to start back at square one, if a person who is in the Church, continues to live in his sin in spite of your admonishments – then they are essentially, no longer in the Church, even if they go through the motions. i.e. like Pelosi.

People think following Matthew 18, means, that they can just ignore that Jesus said to try to get the brother who sins, to come to his senses by using the last resort as the first resort now.
First you DO try to help them openly and directly. It doesn’t mean you just abandon them.

All I see is Catholics who want the easy way out, to sin by Omission, under the name of false tolerance.

“Christian Love Is Not Tolerance”

Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.** It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.**

The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

• Bishop Fulton Sheen

That some now have a problem when they’re shaken out of their contentedness that Jesus is a clap-happy God who smiles no matter what we do, proves the Church is in a crisis.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Has any such person been refused entry to a Catholic church?

As to the original question, do the pope’s words make me feel like the prodigal son–no.

I feel as if I was there with the father gladly helping kill the fatted calf, glad to see my brother come home, and the father turned and slapped me (and millions of other Catholics) in the face and accused me of doing things I never did.

Obsessed? Small-minded? When was I obsessed and small-minded about abortion and homosexuality? When I took a pregnant girl into my home after her parents kicked her out? When I am a loving and accepting friend week in and week out to several friends in particular who are gay, and accept them as they are, and hold my tongue and act as the peacemaker when they trash my faith, understanding where they’ve been in life, and praying for them?

I posted a link to a site with a good discussion of this that I thought perhaps helped shed better light on his words, but honestly, to have even the appearance of the pope having this opinion is as close as I’ve ever come to walking away from the Catholic Church.

I’ll re-emphasize: I’m in full agreement with welcoming everyone into church. I always have been. I’m in full agreement that there’s more to the Catholic faith than abortion, homosexuality, and birth control. I always have been, and the Church IS doing those other things. My problem is the feeling that millions of Catholics have been falsely, very unjustly, accused of things they never did, said, felt, or thought.

Um you are definitely reacting like the OLDER SON.

The story is about the sins of BOTH sons.

The Pope had not once even remotely indicated a change in the church’s doctrines.

The media has.

But the Holy Father has not. Not remotely.

 

[Veridical16]

And the devil rejoices.

We just need to remember. It’s hard enough for us to enter into life. It’s hard for us to follow Christ. ** So don’t worry about everyone else. It’s between them and God. We live like he commands and witness in word and deed. **

Judgement pride and anger only distance us from becoming Saints.

Not worrying about everyone is easy to do this when you deal with your peers outside the Church.

I think learning from some priests homilies , that God gave us two modes of evangelization, Jesus was more of a merciful father , with those who were outside the fold, the pagans, samaritans, tax collectors. But he did not mince words with those who should know better. Particularly the pharisees and the Jews, and his apostles he rebuked frequently. Knowing this,
The Catechism says about the virtues where through graces, we can help strengthen the faith of others of those who do know better. So while you are right we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling , and Jesus said about apostles concerned about St. John. “What is it to you? Follow me”

We can’t let that reality that we are ultimately alone, in our personal judgment as we are to stand before Jesus one day – let us become trapped into thinking that we are islands going to God, rather than children of God with billions of brothers and sisters…where we desire their good too.

We’re all on a journey so it’s hard to say any of us is fully correct or ever can be in understanding and working out our salvation and our duties as part of the Church members, this side of Heaven.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Not worrying about everyone is easy to do this when you deal with your peers outside the Church.

I think learning from some priests homilies , that God gave us two modes of evangelization, Jesus was more of a merciful father , with those who were outside the fold, the pagans, samaritans, tax collectors. But he did not mince words with those who should know better. Particularly the pharisees and the Jews, and his apostles he rebuked frequently. Knowing this,
The Catechism says about the virtues where through graces, we can help strengthen the faith of others of those who do know better. So while you are right we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling , and Jesus said about apostles concerned about St. John. “What is it to you? Follow me”

We can’t let that reality that we are ultimately alone, in our personal judgment as we are to stand before Jesus one day – let us become trapped into thinking that we are islands going to God, rather than children of God with billions of brothers and sisters…where we desire their good too.

We’re all on a journey so it’s hard to say any of us is fully correct or ever can be in understanding and working out our salvation and our duties as part of the Church members, this side of Heaven.

You seem to worry about sinners in the church. I do too. I am one of them. I do not understand how you take the Holt Fathers words to such a bizarre extreme. It’s like the secular media is your Pope.

The media lies, the Pope has not made a U turn, he has not changed doctrine, he has not said to let those with mortal sin take communion, etc…

He told us to preach the gospel to sinners.

If your so concerned with the sinners in your parish (stats show 90% of practicing Catholics use birth control so maybe start there) but I would say you cannot properly focus on your own heart if pride jealousy and anger consumes you as you watch the communion line.

Nothing has changed in church teaching.

So let’s all stop freaking out and go proclaim the good need of Christ. That Christ came to save and HE CAN GIVE YOU A NEW LIFE IF YOU CHOOSE TO REPENT AND FOLLOW HIM!

 

[dannyboy2277]

I think what the Pope is trying to say, is that the church needs to say what Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery," I do not condemn you, go and sin no more!"

The pope has broadly spoken about compassion (I do not condemn you);
I just wish he would start talking about conversion (go and sin no more!)

 

[Jon_S_1]

The Gospel of The Lord according to Matthew (for tomorrow)

As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector’s booth; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he got up and followed Him. Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?” But when Jesus heard this, He said, " It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:9-13