Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[eucharist04]

The pope has broadly spoken about compassion (I do not condemn you);
I just wish he would start talking about conversion (go and sin no more!)

I agree!

 

[Beautiful]

Before I begin this little piece for reflection, I just want to say that our Moderators have already made it clear that we shouldn’t presume to judge the Pope:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=764882

And it is my realization, perhaps our Holy Father is like that father in the story Jesus told. He’s out there on the road, looking for ways to reach those prodigal sons and daughters. Am I going to feel all put out and envious and afraid? Or am I going to join in the celebration?

It’s a spiritual test for me. Maybe it is for a lot of us. In my heart of hearts, I don’t think we need to be so fearful. Easier said than done, maybe, but doable. :curtsey:

Ummm…I believe the father searched the road…and then when the prodigal returned he celebrated.

spiritual test…yes

I just have a very difficult time understanding how abortion and gay lifestyle can be equated or measured out the same.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Well, there have been some posts on this thread that have addressed the original question in a thoughtful manner, and others that seem just like reruns of other threads, so I suppose pretty soon it’ll have run its course and die a natural death. At this point I would be pleased if it got locked.

I hope I didn’t do wrong by starting it in the first place.

 

[anthonymarie]

But here’s the thing - sometimes I have this fear. And if I look at it closely, I see myself, being a very good imitation of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Sometimes I fear the rules won’t be enforced enough, won’t be enforced for someone else, etc. - when I have followed them all my life (mostly) and fought for them and helped explain them to people and all these efforts I’ve made.

It’s a spiritual test for me. Maybe it is for a lot of us. In my heart of hearts, I don’t think we need to be so fearful. Easier said than done, maybe, but doable. :curtsey:

I found this very helpful. Thank you.

 

[severus68]

I was a prodigal son for many decades and had completely turned my back on Jesus. Then, just for a moment, I let my ‘guard’ drop and, almost in an instant Jesus called me back, and welcomed me with open arms. had I been following His rules? No. Did I deserve to be welcomed back? No. Ever since then I have been amazed at what I have been given, especially since I did not deserve it.

But I think, in a way that our undeserving nature is exactly the point. There is not one of us who deserves Christ’s gift to us, not one, yet he gives it anyway. Once we go down the road of thinking, “I know none of us really deserve it, but those of us who have kept to the rules deserve it a bit more than those who haven’t kept to the rules”, we are treading a very dangerous path.

The message of Christ is Love (not about keeping rules and earning one’s reward). Can any of us say that in that moment when he was accepted back (and perhaps even from then on) the prodigal son’s love for his father was not greater than the elder son’s love for his father? Can anyone then really say that he was less deserving than his elder brother?

Maybe that is where Pope Francis is coming from? Who are we to say who loves the Lord? Who are we to say who is, or who is not, more deserving of the Lord’s gift?

A beautiful post. Many great posts on this thread including the OP’s.

 

[Starrsmother]

That sort of thing has been going on for 2,000 years. But they have a better chance of finding Jesus if they come to Mass regularly than if they don’t.

People do come to a point where they recognize the sin in their own life in a lot of different ways–but I really believe that for some of us–at least for me—it takes some time and a lot of prayer. The greatest gift God gave me is the gift of living long enough to reach the point I am now. I still have many miles to go spiritually before I sleep. BUT, when I think back to where I was even a year ago it makes my blood curdle–to think that if God had chosen for my life to end then, the condition that I’d have had to stand before Him and be judged in. For some reason that I sure didn’t and don’t deserve, God saw fit to give me a little more time.

I live in a little town in Alaska and about 6 or 7 months ago, a young lady (and I use the term loosely I guess) died in a fluke auto accident caused by her speeding while under the influence of about as many things as you could imagine. If it could be swallowed, shot, snorted or inhaled–she had it on board that evening. In addition, she was divorced twice, I think–had 2 young kids by 2 different men–none of the men being her ex-husbands, and was, I believe, involved with another man at the time of the accident that took her life. What is really even more unusual, was that it was a one vehicle accident within feet of a grocery store --where she had been just prior to the accident and met a friend and yet the cops estimated that she was driving well over 60 mph when she lost control of her car. Now, understand–I am praying that God had mercy on this girl when she came before Him that night. Heaven knows, I know the girl’s mother–and believe me, she is a bigger mess, if possible than the girl–so the girl had a really hard life to overcome… But when I look at my own life, I am so humbled that God gave me the gift of time. If He had chosen to call me home at many times in my past, I’d be even more afraid to face him than today. And I hope that tomorrow I’ll be even less afraid than today and so on… and I certainly don’t deserve His mercy any more than the young girl–as I had more to begin with having been born into the Catholic church.

 

[Brendan_64]

Has any such person been refused entry to a Catholic church?

Yes we do not physically close the doors of our churches to such people, but what about the doors of our hearts? How open are they?

 

[Brendan_64]

Where did I say to do that? Don’t put words in my mouth.

I wasn’t putting words into your mouth, I was merely making a point.for consideration.

And it would also be wrong to close your doors to an erring family member and only welcome them back as a family member once they had changed their ways."

What exactly is the issue you have with my making that point?

If you have a problem with what I said above, you are mistaken for it and need to re-read it.

I have no problem with the point you make or with you making it. I may not agree entirely with the emphasis you place on the teaching. Why adopt such a confrontational tone simply because someone does not agree entirely with the point you make?

I do not believe that we ought to wait until a sinner repents before welcoming them back. We are all sinners, yet we are all welcome. How many of us have never mortally sinned? Who is to say that our sin less than their sin? We are all in need of repentance, not just those we view as prodigal sons. We are in fact all of us prodigal sons.

Because it should not irked anyone, unless they have a wrong outlook on the message of the Church themselves. i.e. asking for those to repent implies if they don’t you “close the doors”

We are all in need of repentance. Why should particular ‘groups’ of sinners be singled out as being in particular need of repentance?

My comments are about false tolerance. NOBODY said that in mercy, means you SHUN the person in general. You pray for them in suffering, but you don’t go around acting as if everything is peachy in what you see, with this* “I’m okay, you’re okay”* attitude. You bear their sins.

We all need prayers. We are all sinners. Yet we accept each other equally as brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Church teaches us, and Her teachings are quite clear. There is not one of us who does not sin, and sin greatly. How can we, as a sinner, truly judge the extent of another’s sin? How can we judge the state of another’s soul? Surely that ought to be left for He who is without sin?

 

[Starrsmother]

The longer I think about Pope Francis and what he actually said in his infamous latest interview and ponder on it, the more I kind of understand and agree with what I think he was trying to get across. Think about it for a minute. What do non-Catholics actually think of first when they hear the word “Catholic”? I mean, if a non-Catholic were playing Jeopardy or whatever that game is on TV, and someone was trying to get a non Catholic co-contestant to come up with the word “Catholic” what might they say?

No abortion?
Can’t get divorced?
Can’t use birth control thus they must have 20 kids?
No homosexuals–cause they are going straight to hell?
No living together before marriage?
No, no and for sure NO?

I think maybe what Pope Francis was trying to get across is that if we want to reach out to the whole world as our brothers and sisters and in the hope of bringing them to Jesus in full communion with the Catholic church, that maybe we should tone down the negative rhetoric. Yes, abortion, multiple marriages, artificial contraception, active homosexuality and fornication are grave sins to be sure. However, not caring for the poor, not putting God above everything in our lives, cheating on taxes and lying to others are also grave sins. Jesus said that people would be able to recognize us as being Christians by our love for one another. So perhaps Pope Francis was simply reminding us of that commandment to love and that if we come to non Catholics with a spirit of love and show them the intrinsic beauty of a true Catholic life filled with that love, then it will be easier for others to consider and hopefully accept the fact that not murdering the unborn, not creating broken families, not entering into sexual unions with ANYONE besides our spouse of the opposite sex, and so on are actually not just a list of “thou shalt not’s” but rather a list of “thou shalt always love’s!” And true love is always the best foundation to begin catechesis with! If you think about it, conversion at the point of a gun has never seemed to work well in the long run anywhere or any time in history. Pope Francis just had a somewhat wordy way of making a valid point–and hopefully the Pope will realize as he deals with the ruthless nature of the current press for a little while longer, that they will joyfully twist his words any way they can to promote their own secular agenda! Another words, he will come to understand that as the pope, he is a moving target for any scandalous misinterpretation that the pope’s words can be re-made into!

The MOST interesting point if you think about it, is why is the press giving a Catholic pope so much air time when our society in general and the secular press specifically usually wouldn’t give anything Catholic a wave of their hand? If you think about it, in the last 50 or 100 years, unless the current pope died, got shot, traveled to a separate continent or resigned–and outside of covering midnight mass on Christmas–when do you remember the press covering much of anything Catholic? And yet, the secular press is hanging on every word Pope Francis says, his day of prayer for peace in Syria, his new used car, where he chooses to take up residence–even his lifestyle in Argentina prior to his becoming pope. Non Catholics who turn on the TV have undoubtedly heard more about the Catholic church and the pope in the past few months than they ever have before in their entire life! Is it just possible that God is revealing Himself to the entire world and in His own way through our new pope? Just a thought…:clapping:

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I’m afraid that with comments like the pope’s, there will be good-hearted Catholics who will think it’s wrong to convert lost sheep. There are so many in this world who think that abortion and the act of homosexuality are perfectly ok. This is exactly why we need to speak boldly for the sake of these persons’ eternal souls. Too many people are more concerned about hurting someone’s feelings instead of being concerned for that person’s soul.

…

To love someone enough to tell them the truth about their sin is an act of compassion, as long as it is done in humility and pure love. Who among us doesn’t need to hear the truth when we have strayed off the path and become entangled in sin?

People fall in love with Jesus, and then stop sinning. They don’t stop sinning, and then find Jesus.

You’ve got the order of operations wrong here.

 

[Brendan_64]

People fall in love with Jesus, and then stop sinning. They don’t stop sinning, and then find Jesus.

If we spend too much time condemning and demanding repentance, we are in danger of giving the message that Jesus does not want sinners to come to Him until they have fully repented.

 

[Seamus_L]

Where this is all headed in the very near future remains to be seen. I don’t wish to sound like a naysayer, but already among some people there is now the perception (and please note that I used the word perception) that Church teaching may be changing.

 

[agnes_therese]

Where this is all headed in the very near future remains to be seen. I don’t wish to sound like a naysayer, but already among some people there is now the perception (and please note that I used the word perception) that Church teaching may be changing.

Not anyone who bothers reading what the Pope actually says. Besides, some people have been saying for decades that certain church teachings “may” be changing – those who are blaming Pope Francis for that (and I don’t mean you, Seamus) are being completely unfair to him.

 

[FollowChrist34]

People fall in love with Jesus, and then stop sinning. They don’t stop sinning, and then find Jesus.

You’ve got the order of operations wrong here.

I think this is right. Love comes before repentance. But as soon as you realize Jesus is a real, active presence in your life and loves you - that you stand before him - don’t you fear and repent of your sins? Don’t you pray to him to help you not sin going forward? He can see everything you do, everything you think! Every mass I pray for forgiveness of my sins, those I am aware of and even more those I am not. I pray for the grace to overcome weakness.

It’s true we all sin until the day we die. But don’t we use prayer, the sacraments, the Gospel and the teaching of the Church to try to amend that? Constantly?

All I am asking is that people join the Church in this way. Not worry about the Church being too judgmental. How about a little forgiveness and love from these folks towards the more traditional Catholics?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Love without pain and change is merely an emotion, lacking authenticity. It’s “feel-good” religion, demanding that others always make me feel good “before” I submit, and even continue to make me feel good about my sins. The genuine “feeling good” part is the direct result of change, not the precursor to it. Commitment and sacrifice are the price of pain, a sacrifice which Jesus modeled for us on the Cross, despite definitely not feeling good.

Christianity is not permission for emotional blackmail from the rest of the Christian community, as the price of conversion.

 

[Brendan_64]

How about a little forgiveness and love from these folks towards the more traditional Catholics?

How are the more traditional Catholics not loved? Is anyone saying that they don’t belong in the Church? Is anyone saying that more traditional Catholics are in particular need of repentance? I can’t quite see the point you’re trying to make.

 

[gracepoole]

Love without pain and change is merely an emotion, lacking authenticity. It’s “feel-good” religion, demanding that others always make me feel good “before” I submit, and even continue to make me feel good about my sins. The genuine “feeling good” part is the direct result of change, not the precursor to it. Commitment and sacrifice are the price of pain, a sacrifice which Jesus modeled for us on the Cross, despite definitely not feeling good.

Christianity is not permission for emotional blackmail from the rest of the Christian community, as the price of conversion.

“Pain”? Conversion without pain equals desire for a “feel good religion”? Christ Himself didn’t offer a “feel good” experience for followers that made them want to submit. Submission was and is a glad, joyful choice. But it’s only such when one recognizes Jesus’ love and incredible mercy. Christianity itself is joyful. The description provided here is not reflective of that.

 

[bquinnan]

I guess my worry is that I’m not sure what the Holy Father wants the faithful to do exactly. I think there needs to be an alternative to coming across as sticklers for right and wrong – judgmental, uncharitable and compassionate – or coming across as having no moral position whatsoever, and being OK with and even accepting of immorality. I’m a little worried that in the present, we are trying so hard to avoid the former that we run a high risk of falling into the latter.

I remember how in the late '80s and early '90s – my teens and young adulthood – so many of my peers and some progressive priests I knew seemed to believe that the Church was on the verge of making vast changes in its moral teachings. Of course, it never was, but people held out hope for such changes, never embracing the authentic teachings of the Church, and telling one another, “I’m OK, you’re OK” as we defined our morals for ourselves. That seemed to simmer down after a while – it became clear eventually that Pope John Paul II wasn’t watering anything down, and no one thought for a moment that Pope Benedict XVI would – but I’m seeing signs of that attitude emerging again as people infer things from the Holy Father’s statements.

I’m also worried that we are already losing the battle for our country’s soul, and that if we just stop talking about “divisive issues,” adhering to the teachings of the Church could become next to impossible. For example, Catholic hospitals would be forced to distribute contraception and perform abortions or close their doors. “Catholic medical professional” might become a contradiction. Catholic organizations could be forced to effectively recognize gay marriages as laws are passed requiring them to give the same benefits to homosexual couples that they give to married men and women. These things are already problems in some states. Are we to just shrug our shoulders and give up on the culture? If not, what ARE we supposed to do?

 

[agnes_therese]

Love without pain and change is merely an emotion, lacking authenticity. It’s “feel-good” religion, demanding that others always make me feel good “before” I submit, and even continue to make me feel good about my sins. The genuine “feeling good” part is the direct result of change, not the precursor to it. Commitment and sacrifice are the price of pain, a sacrifice which Jesus modeled for us on the Cross, despite definitely not feeling good.

Christianity is not permission for emotional blackmail from the rest of the Christian community, as the price of conversion.

I haven’t seen anyone say that it is. But the best way to show people that is to draw them to Jesus. And the Holy Father is asking us to do that by living the Gospel. That idea isn’t any more radical now than it’s been for the last 2000 years. Nor any easier.

 

[FollowChrist34]

How are the more traditional Catholics not loved? Is anyone saying that they don’t belong in the Church? Is anyone saying that more traditional Catholics are in particular need of repentance? I can’t quite see the point you’re trying to make.

There is often coming from more progressive Catholics an implication that traditionalists are too judgmental or lacking in charity, intolerant, Pharisees, etc. In my book, that’s uncharitable and judgmental. I am not saying it doesn’t happen, but when you come across it, do you forgive it and still love the person?

And I think everyone is in need of repentance. The day you get out bed convinced you’re not, you’re in trouble. I call that the sin of pride.