Is poverty a punishment from God?

[planter654]

Apples and oranges – Paul was talking about institutional charity (the institution being the Church), not about individual giving. Indeed, he often takes the position that relatives and others associated with those in need have the first duty – a position which, if we all followed it, would greatly reduce both the need for institutional charity and the cold, impersonal nature sometimes associated with that form of charity.

No! God does not punish us, nor did he create poverty for God created all things that was good. We created poverty. For the poor are there to be seen. Mother Teresa

Jesus did not use the word “institutional charity” he talk about each soul charity period! When he addressed large groups of people. Was Jesus not one? Did he not show and preach and re-teach the laws. Jesus became angry for the first time where? In the temple… the church. They were robbing from the poor, orphans, widows etc. You tell others not to steal and you steal, you tell people not to lie and you lie. Jesus know what they were doing behind the scene.

St. Luke Chapter 11 verse 45-52
Then one of the scholars of the law said to Jesus in reply, Teacher, by saying this you are INSULTING us too. And Jesus said, Woe also to you scholars of the law! You impose on people burdens hard to carry, but you yourselfs do not lift one finger to touch them.

Woe to you! You build the “memorials” of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. Conequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building! Woe to you scholars you have taken away the KEY of knowledge.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Jesus did not use the word “institutional charity” he talk about each soul charity period! When he addressed large groups of people.

Paul did not use the phrase “institutional charity” either – but that’s what he was talking about when he said, “Who will not work, let him not eat” or when discussing charity in 1 Timothy, chapter 5.

Jesus became angry for the first time where? In the temple… the church. They were robbing from the poor, orphans, widows etc. You tell others not to steal and you steal, you tell people not to lie and you lie. Jesus know what they were doing behind the scene.

Jesus did not drive out the moneychangers because they were “robbing from the poor, orphans, widows etc.” He drove them out because they were turning His Father’s house into a place of commerce and cheating everyone. At least, that’s what He said.

12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those engaged in selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
13 And he said to them, “It is written: ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a den of thieves.”

Now how does this refute Paul’s teaching that who will not work shall not eat? Or that only true widows who have no other support should be supported by the Church, and all others must support themselves or be supported by their relatives?

 

[planter654]

Paul did not use the phrase “institutional charity” either – but that’s what he was talking about when he said, “Who will not work, let him not eat” or when discussing charity in 1 Timothy, chapter 5.

Jesus did not drive out the money changers because they were “robbing from the poor, orphans, widows etc.” He drove them out because they were turning His Father’s house into a place of commerce and cheating everyone. At least, that’s what He said.

No! proverty is not a punishment from God.
No, proverty is there to be seen.

Think about this.
The rich are here to help the poor but in the end the poor will save the rich…Mother Teresa
Work and you do not eat.

Speaking of those who are lazy and are strong and are capbable of working not only for them selves, but in “serving others”. Also for those who only think of themselves who can help others in serving. Work to Jesus is not just a job! Did Jesus not accomplish his works that his Father gave him to do? Whom did Jesus serve? Was it about money? Jesus said himself in last supper prayer…“I accomplished all the works that you sent be to do”!

But out of our Blessings and abundance to share with those in need. Jesus said and made it even “more simple” for us to understand “charity and work” when he said: You visited me when I was in prison, I was thirsty and you gave me water, I was hungry and you fed me.

That is what the church (us) as a family should be doing serving others, providing for those in needs. Right now our church which is 100 yrs old, which the community of the faithful have always giving richly every Sunday, for over hundred years to maintain our parish, we have build a beautiful home, for our priest.Now we have to raise '3 million dollars" to put back on top of the Church, its Bell House because it is totally rotten. We had to close the Church for a couple days because that was how dangerous the situation became. Not to mention community funds raised in the 1 million dollar mark for rotten floors a couple of years back. That is on top of giving weekly to the Church. Where did all the money go over the 100 years? They did not maintain our Church with the money we already gave over the years. Then they want to come and close churches, sell them and take the communities moneies that build our church?

Jesus was angry because in those times people had to buy doves for penance! Or give land for indulgences for their sins, what about the poor who had no land to give to the Church. Were the poor all going to hell, hello.

The temple priest did not remove them I am sure it was working to their advantage also, don’t you think. You forgot all the “WOES” Jesus said to the scholars of the law and the scribes, priest. God knows all things, don"t you think. Jesus said “His Fathers House is a House of prayer”, you forgot to add that in your statement to fully understand what Jesus was saying. The Church is not for commerce or marketing busniess.

Helping those in need not just with money but in serving. Look at the poor in Africa, Calcutta etc. even in our own country. Commerce and cheating, hello. Not everyone can work, widows who have no great pensions or can’t afford care with their physical needs, cooking, lonelyness, being taken to the Dr’s, washing their windows, helping cutting the grass etc… You must have a food bank in your neighbourhood. Oh, Orphans can work? Parents who lost a child, parents who have a very sick child adult etc. etc. etc. You do not know someone in your neighbour hood that could use a helping hand? Someone who is struggling to make ends meet etc.?

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Jesus was angry because in those times people had to buy doves for penance! Or give land for indulgences for their sins, what about the poor who had no land to give to the Church. Were the poor all going to hell, hello.

Actually He was angry because of corruption in the Temple. The tithe had to be paid in money without images on it, and sacrificial animals had to be without blemish.

When you came to pay your tithe, you had to change your standard money (with Caesar or some other ruler’s image on it) for “Temple money” without an image – and the money changers charged a high premium.

Similarly, when you sacrficed, your dove or other animal had to be inspected. If the inspectors found a blemish (and they always did), it would be rejected. But you could buy a pre-inspected animal (at a high price.)

Those were the scams He was attacking.

The temple priest did not remove them I am sure it was working to their advantage also, don’t you think.

Precisely! It was a scam and the priests were in on it.

You forgot all the “WOES” Jesus said to the scholars of the law and the scribes, priest. God knows all things, don"t you think. Jesus said “His Fathers House is a House of prayer”, you forgot to add that in your statement to fully understand what Jesus was saying. The Church is not for commerce or marketing busniess.

Since I quoted what He said in the gospel, I thought I made it pretty plain.

Helping those in need not just with money but in serving. Look at the poor in Africa, Calcutta etc. even in our own country. Commerce and cheating, hello. Not everyone can work,

But those who can work, should.

And many who cannot are unable to work because they lack education. Our public school system has failed the poor – approximately 30% of children who enter high school do not graduate.

Where are our Catholic schools? Why are we not working might and main to establish good schools in the poorest areas of our country?

 

[planter654]

Actually He was angry because of corruption in the Temple. The tithe had to be paid in money without images on it, and sacrificial animals had to be without blemish.

When you came to pay your tithe, you had to change your standard money (with Caesar or some other ruler’s image on it) for “Temple money” without an image – and the money changers charged a high premium.

Similarly, when you sacrficed, your dove or other animal had to be inspected. If the inspectors found a blemish (and they always did), it would be rejected. But you could buy a pre-inspected animal (at a high price.)

Those were the scams He was attacking.

Precisely! It was a scam and the priests were in on it.

Yes. Jesus knew the priests were in on it. Jesus also came to re-teach the laws also. He knew that the poor, slaves, hungry were being neglected. They were telling the poor not to steal, but Jesus said, but you yourselves steal. The scribes and the priest where living well off while his sheeps were being neglected. They were underbondage. Jesus even said afterwards I have set you free indeed from bondage, do you want to go under bondage again. Jesus woes where address to whom… the scholars of the law, priest etc. who had an education and who placed such heavy yokes upon the shoulders of the poor.

My thoughts exactly and you are right. But it is not just about education they need food, shelter, clothing, emotional support. They can not learn if they are homeless, hungry etc. first. I agree with you. I found it interesting that there could be no “image” on the money. St. Paul and even through out the old testament beware of IDOLS.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

My thoughts exactly and you are right. But it is not just about education they need food, shelter, clothing, emotional support. They can not learn if they are homeless, hungry etc. first. I agree with you. I found it interesting that there could be no “image” on the money. St. Paul and even through out the old testament beware of IDOLS.

God Bless

With education, they can get money, clothes, food, shelter and whatever else they need.

As for emotional support, our great crime is that for generations, we have failed to educate the poor, and in the process created an underclass that does not value education – it’s “cool” to make poor grades in many of the poorest schools.

We should look to supporting most of the poor only for a short time – while we educate them (or their children.) When they are educated, they can turn from being consumers of chartity to providers, and assist the rest of us in helping those who cannot work.

 

[planter654]

With education, they can get money, clothes, food, shelter and whatever else they need.

As for emotional support, our great crime is that for generations, we have failed to educate the poor, and in the process created an underclass that does not value education – it’s “cool” to make poor grades in many of the poorest schools.

We should look to supporting most of the poor only for a short time – while we educate them (or their children.) When they are educated, they can turn from being consumers of chartity to providers, and assist the rest of us in helping those who cannot work.

You said we should look to supporting most of the poor only for a short time. Thank God he did do that where would we all be. The poor will always be among us. Poor meaning spiritually. Mother Teresa thought in the “WEST” ( us) were the poorest of all. Beware of idols! Interesting don’t you think. Are we not more “educated” then those in Africa, India the poorest nations. She said… that it is easy to feed those that are hungry give them food and they are satisfied. But those who are “spiritually poor” that… takes a long time.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

You said we should look to supporting most of the poor only for a short time. Thank God he did do that where would we all be. The poor will always be among us. Poor meaning spiritually. Mother Teresa thought in the “WEST” ( us) were the poorest of all. Beware of idols! Interesting don’t you think.

Spiritual poverty is different from economic poverty – you can be a millionaire and spiritually poor. And giving money to such a person is not the answer.

Which is another way of saying that we should not confound the two, mixing spiritual poverty with economic poverty.

Are we not more “educated” then those in Africa, India the poorest nations. She said… that it is easy to feed those that are hungry give them food and they are satisfied. But those who are “spiritually poor” that… takes a long time.

God Bless

Actually, many Americans are not more educated than those in some poor countries. For example, if you call a help line nowadays, you will often get someone in India. That Indian can speak English and help you with your problem. How many Americans can speak Hindi – or any other language but English?

And in many nations the cause of poverty is government – brutal, exploitive dictatorships – and/or tribal warfare. To solve those problems, you need to be prepared to expend a lot of ammunition.

 

[planter654]

The prosperity “gospel” has twisted us into thinking these kinds of things.

God wants us to live forever in Heaven with Him. God does not promise us a 4 bedroom house, a fat 401K, 2 cars and a family vacation every year. God provides us a way to get to Heaven with Him!!! What more wealth could there be?

I agree thank you

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Spiritual poverty is different from economic poverty – you can be a millionaire and spiritually poor. And giving money to such a person is not the answer.

Which is another way of saying that we should not confound the two, mixing spiritual poverty with economic poverty.

Actually, many Americans are not more educated than those in some poor countries. For example, if you call a help line nowadays, you will often get someone in India. That Indian can speak English and help you with your problem. How many Americans can speak Hindi – or any other language but English?

And in many nations the cause of poverty is government – brutal, exploitive dictatorships – and/or tribal warfare. To solve those problems, you need to be prepared to expend a lot of ammunition.

Please you are missing the spiritual meaning. You are right when you say be prepared to expend a LOT of AMMUNITION. I ask you how are we all making out doing that? Are we any where closer to peace?

If when you say that many Americans are not more educated than those in some poor countries lets be fair when comparing Africa, Haiti…please. WE know what the cause is it is called GREED. Lets speak of our own government–brutal, exploitive, dictatorships, tribal warfare, don’t you think?

We are the most "Blessed’ among many, many, many, nations, thereforth we have no excuse. Would God not say, have you not been giving clean water to drink, have you not been giving an abundance of food, have you not been given rich soil, have you not been giving shelters, homes to live in, have you not been giving Churchs to pray in. Cars to drive, do you not go to bed not worrying if your home will be destroyed by terroists by morining. Can you not travel on your roads without fear of the enemy day in and day out.

The rich are here to help the poor and in the end the POOR will save the rich. Mother Teresa. We all need to go to Africa, Calcutta, Haiti and spend a week and live as the truly poor live. Then come back on our knees thanking and praising God for his abundant Blessings. We do not know what we have until it is taking away.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Please you are missing the spiritual meaning. You are right when you say be prepared to expend a LOT of AMMUNITION. I ask you how are we all making out doing that? Are we any where closer to peace?

Are we any closer to peace regardless of what course of action we pursue?

If when you say that many Americans are not more educated than those in some poor countries lets be fair when comparing Africa, Haiti…please. WE know what the cause is it is called GREED. Lets speak of our own government–brutal, exploitive, dictatorships, tribal warfare, don’t you think?

There is no comparison between the United States and Darfur. To claim that there is cheapens the debate to the point where solutions are impossible to discuss.

We are the most "Blessed’ among many, many, many, nations, thereforth we have no excuse. Would God not say, have you not been giving clean water to drink, have you not been giving an abundance of food, have you not been given rich soil, have you not been giving shelters, homes to live in, have you not been giving Churchs to pray in. Cars to drive, do you not go to bed not worrying if your home will be destroyed by terroists by morining. Can you not travel on your roads without fear of the enemy day in and day out.

The rich are here to help the poor and in the end the POOR will save the rich. Mother Teresa. We all need to go to Africa, Calcutta, Haiti and spend a week and live as the truly poor live. Then come back on our knees thanking and praising God for his abundant Blessings. We do not know what we have until it is taking away.

God Bless

I’ve been to and lived in many countries – and to think a few hundred million Americans spending a while in those countries will solve their problems is simply unrealistic.

If we cannot solve our own problems, how can we be qualified to solve someone else’s?

 

[planter654]

Are we any closer to peace regardless of what course of action we pursue?

There is no comparison between the United States and Darfur. To claim that there is cheapens the debate to the point where solutions are impossible to discuss.

I’ve been to and lived in many countries – and to think a few hundred million Americans spending a while in those countries will solve their problems is simply unrealistic.

If we cannot solve our own problems, how can we be qualified to solve someone else’s?

Arae we any closer to peace regardless of what course of action we pursue. Yes, we can become closer to peace when we realize we can accomplish nothing without God. Prayers are the most powerful thing any soul can do for others, not to mention for that soul who does so brings himself closer to peace with God. In the old Testament many wars where won through prayer first! Also becausse they were obedient to God in what he had commanded them to do. Are we not all guilty of our desires first, not God’s desire and will us.

Remember when Mother Teresa said she was going into a war zone to get the children out. They all said she was crazy would get killed. What did she do. She prayed, ask and believed and said tomorrow I am going in. What happened they all awoke the next morning no bombs going off their was silence. She got the kids out safely. Jesus said: Oh you of little faith.

No it does not cheapen the debate brings us all to reality of our foolishness. With the foolish God sad he will shame the wisdom of the wise. Never under estimate the power of the living God. Many people who have gone to live for a few weeks have come back totally changed, others no. Remember those who are first will be last. I believe the poor will be first.

I believe the poor God has also given them a purpose. I believe they scarifice more than I could ever do and I believe it is for the spiritually poor, me. They give more to us than we can ever image, but one day will.

God is good and gives all that is good. God loves us all dearly but he will not force us to Love him. To Love God in truth is to fallow his commandments, his laws, statues and decrees. Not changing them and thinking he will be more pleased, or speaking for Him. It is like saying God did not get it right the first time around. For no knows the thoughts of God.

I cannot say I love God if I do not do what he has asked and commanded us to do. God is not a foolish God and is the same today as yesterday. If each soul did so we will see peace.

Simply Love give of oneself to the best that we can in our very small way, even if we do not feel like but do it only in Love.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arae we any closer to peace regardless of what course of action we pursue. Yes, we can become closer to peace when we realize we can accomplish nothing without God. Prayers are the most powerful thing any soul can do for others, not to mention for that soul who does so brings himself closer to peace with God. In the old Testament many wars where won through prayer first! Also becausse they were obedient to God in what he had commanded them to do. Are we not all guilty of our desires first, not God’s desire and will us.

No argument – but when does God expect us to get off our butts and do something?

Remember when Mother Teresa said she was going into a war zone to get the children out. They all said she was crazy would get killed. What did she do. She prayed, ask and believed and said tomorrow I am going in. What happened they all awoke the next morning no bombs going off their was silence. She got the kids out safely. Jesus said: Oh you of little faith.

Remember that Mother Teresa actually did something. She didn’t sit by and let things happen – she worked.

No it does not cheapen the debate brings us all to reality of our foolishness. With the foolish God sad he will shame the wisdom of the wise. Never under estimate the power of the living God. Many people who have gone to live for a few weeks have come back totally changed, others no. Remember those who are first will be last. I believe the poor will be first.

When you begin confounding terms, it does cheapen the debate. If we cannot use precise terms, what good is debate?

 

[jmcrae]

Tell me, how many millionaire high-school dropouts do **you **know?

I know of two - Bill Gates, and the guy who founded Amway (whose name I have temporarily forgotten) - he actually dropped out of the third grade, started working in sales, and had his first million before he was 18 years old. I don’t think he learned to read or write until he was in his forties, and that was only because someone asked him to write a book about his life.

Success is more strongly related to practical goal-setting and hard work than to education.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I know of two - Bill Gates, and the guy who founded Amway (whose name I have temporarily forgotten) - he actually dropped out of the third grade, started working in sales, and had his first million before he was 18 years old. I don’t think he learned to read or write until he was in his forties, and that was only because someone asked him to write a book about his life.

Success is more strongly related to practical goal-setting and hard work than to education.

Yes and no – statistically, one who does not graduate high school is highly unlikely to be financially successful. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, high school dropouts are the only cohort in America that has lost ground economically over the last generation.

On the other hand, there are people who through hard work and goal-setting have achieved success without a formal education. But they are relatively rare. And for such persons to start and manage successful businesses is extremely rare.

If you drop out of school, the odds are dramatically against you.

And by the way, Gates graduated high school. He dropped out of college.

 

[planter654]

No argument – but when does God expect us to get off our butts and do something?

Remember that Mother Teresa actually did something. She didn’t sit by and let things happen – she worked.

When you begin confounding terms, it does cheapen the debate. If we cannot use precise terms, what good is debate?

Thank God that he is delayed in his coming, but is longed patience for each soul waiting so that not “one soul will be lost”. God does “not force you”, but all have heard. Thereforth we have no excuse.

That is the problem these debates, we use our “tongue more” than are hands, don’t you think.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is the problem these debates, we use our “tongue more” than are hands, don’t you think.

God Bless

More people want to talk than to work – and they often use the excuse that prayer will solve the problem, neglecting any personal responsibility for working to end poverty and homelessness.

 

[jmcrae]

Social Justice is changing our society so that so many people won’t need charity. It’s about educating people so they can get jobs and be self-sufficient (and perhaps help the rest of us in our Charity to those who can’t get jobs.) It’s about instilling positive values in people who have negative values – so they see education, work, savings, delayed gratification and so on as good things, and see things like drug abuse, out-of-wedlock sex and so on as bad things.

A balance of both charity and social justice is needed. If we only do charity, then we will be doing it forever. But if we only do social justice, then those for whom it is intended will be long dead by the time the policies and structures are actually implemented.

An example given at a retreat I attended recently was, to run past a guy who is dying of thirst in the desert and say to him, “Don’t worry. We are going to be planting trees and installing a well. A year from now, you will have water.” He’s not going to live that long - so, while we are planting the trees and digging the well, we also have to help the guy get the water he needs right now. But once everything is up and running, and he can get water for himself, then our task is done, and he can start to be a giver, too.

 

[planter654]

More people want to talk than to work – and they often use the excuse that prayer will solve the problem, neglecting any personal responsibility for working to end poverty and homelessness.

I meant prayer and keeping your hands busy.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

A balance of both charity and social justice is needed. If we only do charity, then we will be doing it forever. But if we only do social justice, then those for whom it is intended will be long dead by the time the policies and structures are actually implemented.

An example given at a retreat I attended recently was, to run past a guy who is dying of thirst in the desert and say to him, “Don’t worry. We are going to be planting trees and installing a well. A year from now, you will have water.” He’s not going to live that long - so, while we are planting the trees and digging the well, we also have to help the guy get the water he needs right now. But once everything is up and running, and he can get water for himself, then our task is done, and he can start to be a giver, too.

You are absolutely right – we must care for those who cannot care for themselves until they become self-sufficient.

But we must not lose sight of the true goal – which is to make as many people self-sufficient as possible. We should not neglect things like education, nor should we creat programs that tend to lock people into poverty. And to date, those are our two major failings. We have to break the poverty cycle, not perpetuate it.