Is Prayer Selfish?

[Dave_B]

I notice a lot of prayer going on here This may not be a popular point of view, but thought it may be interesting to debate whether prayer is a self-centered or not, and whether prayer serves some greater purpose.

If God is all-knowing, what is the point of prayer? Surely an all-knowing being, will already know what you need and what is best for you?

I would like to understand the point in asking God for things. God (or gods) will do whatever they want, irrespective of how persuasive we are.

For example if we pray for someone to be healed, is this trying to sway God?

Are we asking God to act, when he choses not to?

In Christian theology, God is all-powerful and all-knowing and will therefore be in the perfect position to judge who needs help and who doesn’t.

He will make the perfect choices every time.

If God choses to allow people to suffer or die, this is, according to Christians, part of God’s plan, and there is nothing we can do about it.

If he choses to act or not that is his choice and not ours. Could it be arrogant to think that you know better than God does and should issue requests to him?

Many prayers involve asking for things. “Give us this day our daily bread.”… from the ‘model’ prayer.

I would think an improvement might be to ask God to give daily bread to others more in need, such as people children in the developing world.

But even that goes against the principle that God is all-knowing. Why issue him instructions at all, why make persuasive attempts to change his mind?

An all-knowing all-powerful God does not need our prayers. We do it for ourselves only and self reflection.

It is not for others, as God will know what is best for others as well as ourselves.

Prayer arguably demonstrates a lack of faith that God is all-knowing and a lack of faith that God is capable of the best choice of action or inaction.

Please note the above are just ideas and questions for debate.

Your thoughts?

 

[Jewel34]

There are two kinds of prayers, the “meditative” ones and the “supplicatory” types. The meditative ones are fine, they seek to be closer to God. The supplicatory ones (that you mentioned) are irrational, exactly for the reasons you mentioned. As Ambrose Bierce said in the Devil’s Dictionary:

To pray (v): to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.

 

[christofirst]

Yet, in spite of all of this reasoning, most of us humans still feel an innate need to pray. And Divine Revelation, be it from the Old Testament or from our Lord Jesus Christ, indicates that God approves of and even encourages our prayer.

It has been said that prayer affects us more than it affects God, and maybe this is true. In some ways, prayer can be a kind of coping mechanism for us, but does that make it selfish in a negative way? Pure altruism is hard to come by, if it ever really exists in any of us. The question then might be, is our prayer completely self-centered, or does it actually help us to transcend our selfishness in some way?

 

[JRKH]

I notice a lot of prayer going on here This may not be a popular point of view, but thought it may be interesting to debate whether prayer is a self-centered or not, and whether prayer serves some greater purpose.

Prayer certainly CAN be “selfish” and disordered - in which case it is being done wrong.
But that said, please remember that the second great commandment is that we love neighbor as we love ourselves…(Mt 22:36-40) So love of self (and asking for things) is not necessarily disordered.

If God is all-knowing, what is the point of prayer? Surely an all-knowing being, will already know what you need and what is best for you?

Which is why properly ordered prayer - and a properly ordered life - will seek to conform to Him in His Love.

I would like to understand the point in asking God for things. God (or gods) will do whatever they want, irrespective of how persuasive we are.

A line from a movie (“Shadowlands”) is I think a good response here…
“I pray because I can’t help myself. I pray because I’m helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn’t change God, it changes me.”

For example if we pray for someone to be healed, is this trying to sway God?

In some ways yes…but remember that - in that model prayer you mention below - and also in Christ’s own prayer - we ask that God’s Will be done. This is what we mean by prayer being properly ordered.

Are we asking God to act, when he chooses not to?

Sure - we are asking God to act. Of course we do not know whether he “chooses to” or not. We can only find out by asking.

In Christian theology, God is all-powerful and all-knowing and will therefore be in the perfect position to judge who needs help and who doesn’t.

Quite true.

He will make the perfect choices every time.

Yup

If God choses to allow people to suffer or die, this is, according to Christians, part of God’s plan, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Nope - I disagree that there is nothing we can do about it.

If he chooses to act or not that is his choice and not ours. Could it be arrogant to think that you know better than God does and should issue requests to him?

Certainly it could be arrogant - Arrogance depends on our disposition, not His.
But prayer requests need not be arrogant.

Many prayers involve asking for things. “Give us this day our daily bread.”… from the ‘model’ prayer.

Yes - we often ask for things. But if one looks at the model prayer one finds that the first thing we ask for is not bread - but His will to be done. Only THEN do we ask for bread - and not all the bread - just for our “daily” bread. Looking at the other petitions in the model prayer will likewise give good insight into properly ordered prayer.

I would think an improvement might be to ask God to give daily bread to others more in need, such as people children in the developing world.

INdeed that would be a good petition.

But even that goes against the principle that God is all-knowing. Why issue him instructions at all, why make persuasive attempts to change his mind?

Not at all - God being all knowing should not prevent us from asking.

An all-knowing all-powerful God does not need our prayers. We do it for ourselves only and self reflection.

Quite true.

It is not for others, as God will know what is best for others as well as ourselves.

This depends on what is being prayed for. Remember - prayer must be properly ordered.

Prayer arguably demonstrates a lack of faith that God is all-knowing and a lack of faith that God is capable of the best choice of action or inaction.

Disagree - prayer is communication with God - through prayer, properly ordered, we learn many things about ourselves and about God and His ways.
Prayer is a school…We ask questions in school - and in life…and we ask things on our journey in faith.
In fact I would suggest that prayer, properly employed, demonstrates faith rather than a lack of it.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

And finally - - - If we are not to pray - or if prayer shows a lack of faith - - - Why would Jesus tell us to pray and teach us how to pray?

Peace
James

 

[vincent10395]

True, at first it may seem that prayer to the omniscient may seem pointless, but is it really?

William Lane Craig describes prayer this way:

"We should not think of prayer as changing God’s mind or changing events. God knows from eternity everything that will transpire in time, so that prayers do not literally change anything. For God’s foreknowledge already takes our prayers into account. God’s foreknowledge is chronologically prior to the prayers we offer, but the prayers are logically prior to what God foreknows. If we were to pray differently or fail to pray, God would not be caught by surprise but have already factored that into His providential plan.

So then how do our prayers make a difference if they do not change things? Precisely by being factored by God into which world He has chosen to create! Were we not to pray, then perhaps God would not have done such-and-such. Because God knew that you would pray for a certain thing, God has so arranged the world that that thing happens. Had you not prayed, God would have created a different world instead. So through His middle knowledge of how we would pray in different circumstances, our prayers make a tremendous difference in which world is actual."

From: “Middle knowledge, and prayer”

Reasonable Faith

 

[Origen52]

Jesus was god, he and the father were one; he says that numerous times, yet the gospels tell us of many times Jesus prayed. God knows everything, we don’t; prayer is how he communicates with us.

 

[georget]

I look at praying as talking to God, letting Him know my hopes , my fears, my aspirations,
my sorrows, and my joys, He is my Father and I trust Him, and one of the joys of life is watching to see how He answers, I don’t believe it’s selfish to want to share your life with your heavenly Father, and to ask for guidance.

Luke 18:1-14

 

[oldgraymare2]

Hi Dave,

Do I think that prayer is selfish? My answer is “no.” I don’t think that it is wrong to pray for our own needs.

I think that prayer is a way that we communicate with God, and is a way that we have a personal relationship with Him. It is a way that we also become closer to Him, in a closer relationship with Him. Of course we should pray for others, too.

People have been praying to God throughout the ages. There are many beautiful prayers that we have through the church. Also, we have some very beautiful prayers from the saints, too.

 

[KrazyKat]

We are to imitate Jesus, Jesus prayed !

 

[svid2]

Pax Christi!

There are four kinds of prayer: supplication (requests), praise (also called doxology), thanksgiving and contrition. Praise is the natural state of those who loveGod. Contrition should be natural for anyone honest enough to admit they are a sinner and are repentant. Thanksgiving is the natural reaction to favors received, whether requested or not. It’s hard to find fault with these.

Requests are sometimes seen as unnecessary, even selfish. But what good parent doesn’t want to hear from the children what they want, fear, enjoy, etc., even when the parent knows things very well?

Most of my supplications are for others (some are for me!) and this is also good, for we are social creatures. God created team players. The saints in Heaven are praying for us. In the struggle against evil, we need to win overwhelmingly.

Pray without ceasing, we are told!

God bless.

 

[Dave_B]

Thank you all for your responses.

Having thought about it, praying for others is not selfish, but praying for yourself is, in that it is for ‘self’.

Asking for things from God seems telling him he has made the wrong choice.

Re Jesus praying. In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prays for “this cup to be taken away”. Setting aside Jesus being God and asking himself!?, then why would he ask God to take his suffering and his responsibilities away from him?

It is as if God (Jesus) is asking God to change his mind and sway his perfect opinion, even though God is all-knowing and all-God, and would surely act in the best interests of Himself. Its all very confusing .

 

[ccmcmg]

That is something that has come across my mind at times; why pray?

I pray to Him in thanksgiving for all He has blessed me with, physically and spiritually.

I pray to Him for others, and yes for myself.

How else are we to speak to God? Sometimes prayer is conversation, sometimes it’s one-sided. God is omniscent. He knows what I need, and if I will pray for it. I can tell you that sometimes I have prayed to God for seemingly small things, and I get an instant answer. Would that answer have arrived if I had not prayed? Perhaps. But would I have known it was from God, or even been able to see that answer, if I had not prayed about it previously? I might have let that moment of knowledge go on by.

Prayer has made me a better person. Whether it’s when I pray the Rosary, the Our Father, the Mass, any written prayer or my own ad libbed moments…prayer has changed my life. Considering I’m pretty stubborn and resistant to change, even good change, this is taking awhile, but it really has made a difference.

Jesus knew that people needed to be healed; after all, He knows everything. But it wasn’t until they came to Him, and asked Him for healing, that they were healed. Didn’t they even bring people to Him full of Demons and He healed her because the people brought her (their prayers) to Him?

 

[Origen52]

Pax Christi!

There are four kinds of prayer: supplication (requests), praise (also called doxology), thanksgiving and contrition. Praise is the natural state of those who loveGod. Contrition should be natural for anyone honest enough to admit they are a sinner and are repentant. Thanksgiving is the natural reaction to favors received, whether requested or not. It’s hard to find fault with these.

Requests are sometimes seen as unnecessary, even selfish. But what good parent doesn’t want to hear from the children what they want, fear, enjoy, etc., even when the parent knows things very well?

**Most of my supplications are for others (some are for me!) and this is also good, for we are social creatures. God created team players. The saints in Heaven are praying for us. In the struggle against evil, we need to win overwhelmingly.
**
Pray without ceasing, we are told!

God bless.

Pax, you’re absolutely right. Let us all remember that the one prayer Jesus taught us is a prayer of supplication: give, deliver, forgive, protect (lead us not).

Prayers of supplication remind us that ultimately all good things come from God and that God can use all things for our good.

 

[ClearWater]

I notice a lot of prayer going on here This may not be a popular point of view, but thought it may be interesting to debate whether prayer is a self-centered or not, and whether prayer serves some greater purpose.

If God is all-knowing, what is the point of prayer? Surely an all-knowing being, will already know what you need and what is best for you?

I would like to understand the point in asking God for things. God (or gods) will do whatever they want, irrespective of how persuasive we are.

For example if we pray for someone to be healed, is this trying to sway God?

Are we asking God to act, when he choses not to?

In Christian theology, God is all-powerful and all-knowing and will therefore be in the perfect position to judge who needs help and who doesn’t.

He will make the perfect choices every time.

If God choses to allow people to suffer or die, this is, according to Christians, part of God’s plan, and there is nothing we can do about it.

If he choses to act or not that is his choice and not ours. Could it be arrogant to think that you know better than God does and should issue requests to him?

Many prayers involve asking for things. “Give us this day our daily bread.”… from the ‘model’ prayer.

I would think an improvement might be to ask God to give daily bread to others more in need, such as people children in the developing world.

But even that goes against the principle that God is all-knowing. Why issue him instructions at all, why make persuasive attempts to change his mind?

An all-knowing all-powerful God does not need our prayers. We do it for ourselves only and self reflection.

It is not for others, as God will know what is best for others as well as ourselves.

Prayer arguably demonstrates a lack of faith that God is all-knowing and a lack of faith that God is capable of the best choice of action or inaction.

Please note the above are just ideas and questions for debate.

Your thoughts?

You were saying Christ’s “Our Father” might be improved upon if we included the words…for the poor…or people who are starving, say.

Well, Christ was very general…“give US this day our daily bread”. I think by “us”, he meant ALL of us, the entire world, including, and especially, the starving, poor, and needy.
I think he was asking that our basic needs be met.

Well, we know people of faith when they prayed, were VERY powerful. We’ve had accounts of the dead being raised due to prayer of, say, the apostles, and even a saint or two. Demons have been expelled. So, we need to continue to ask for our needs, as Christ did, on earth. He would ask

We’ve had numerous accounts of spontaneous healings and other miracles.

Not all prayers are selfish. Some saints have prayed, unselfishly, to be given suffering to atone for the sins of others.

Plus, the previous post with some prayer being thanksgiving, praise, contrition, …those are unselfish, and I don’t think it’s selfish to ask for help of someone else.

I also am not really sure if it’s even so selfish to ask for help when we need it, in a sense. Well, I’d consider it selfish if our prayer was to hit the lottery, millions of dollars, but I don’t consider it selfish to ask that our needs be met.

I notice that Christ didn’t pray for everyone else and exclude himself. He included himself! So, that’s our model to emulate. We, too, when we pray must also include ourselves in our prayers. He did not say, “Give them their daily bread” but “give US our daily bread!”

Further, on his way of the cross, he told us to pray for ourselves and for our children, rather than him. So, is it selfish to pray for ourselves? No. In fact, Christ told us to!

As to what is selfishness? Selfishness is taking…without asking…not giving thanks for what’s received. It’s not in recognizing our dependence on God. It’s an act of humility to ask for our needs and pride, not to.

In a word…what’s selfishness? It’s not selfish to ask for our needs. What’s selfishness is thinking we don’t need to ask or thank God…and also sin.

 

[Wampa]

Asking for things from God seems telling him he has made the wrong choice.

Perhaps I’m doing it wrong, but my take is a bit different. Essentially all of my prayers of supplication boil down to: Your will be done. When I’m asking for things, I always phrase it in terms of “if that is Your will.”

For example: my wife and I hope to have a child. After many years of trying, it seems unlikely. I don’t pray that my wife gets pregnant, I pray that “she become pregnant if that is Your will for our lives and, if it’s not, then lead us down the alternate path you want us to be on” (e.g. adoption, or something else).

Another example: my friend’s child had a critical, nearly-deadly accident as a baby (he’s OK now). While everyone was praying for God to heal him, I was praying “heal him if that is your will; if this suffering is intending to accomplish other goals You have (such as changing my friend’s life), then may Your will be done and the good You seek come from this).” Recognizing that suffering is redemptive and has a purpose, I don’t feel right flat out praying for healing.

Again, I may be doing this wrong, but that’s my angle on it.

 

[georget]

Is it selfish to pray to the Saints? without prayer there would be no saints, You need 3 miracles to become a saint, which means people prayed for those intentions. Seems to me to not believe in praying you’re undermining a basic tenant of your Catholic faith.

 

[bobballen_18]

True, at first it may seem that prayer to the omniscient may seem pointless, but is it really?

William Lane Craig describes prayer this way:

"We should not think of prayer as changing God’s mind or changing events. God knows from eternity everything that will transpire in time, so that prayers do not literally change anything. For God’s foreknowledge already takes our prayers into account. God’s foreknowledge is chronologically prior to the prayers we offer, but the prayers are logically prior to what God foreknows. If we were to pray differently or fail to pray, God would not be caught by surprise but have already factored that into His providential plan.

So then how do our prayers make a difference if they do not change things? Precisely by being factored by God into which world He has chosen to create! Were we not to pray, then perhaps God would not have done such-and-such. Because God knew that you would pray for a certain thing, God has so arranged the world that that thing happens. Had you not prayed, God would have created a different world instead. So through His middle knowledge of how we would pray in different circumstances, our prayers make a tremendous difference in which world is actual."

From: “Middle knowledge, and prayer”
Reasonablefaith.org

William Craig’s explanation is how I understand prayer. I had been wondering the same thing a couple years back, and it all works out in the context of God’s Divine Providence/Foreknowledge. True, he already knows what will happen - if we’re going to pray or not. But in his Divine Providence, since He knows what has happened, could have happened in any case, what will happen, what could happen, etc., it is all worked out in each case - He knows what would have happened if someone would have prayed, but didn’t. He knows what will happen if someone does pray.

But again, he already knows whether one will pray or not, so he already knows what is going to happen. OK, since I have babbled enough, I’m gonna conclude with this: As William Craig says, the effects of prayer have already been played out in God’s Divine Providence. So in the same sense that we have free will and are not manipulated by God (even though he knows what we’re going to to), our prayer is another aspect of this - we aren’t manipulating God when we pray, we are only using our free will.

I hope I made sense.

 

[tonyrey]

I look at praying as talking to God, letting Him know my hopes , my fears, my aspirations,
my sorrows, and my joys, He is my Father and I trust Him, and one of the joys of life is watching to see how He answers, I don’t believe it’s selfish to want to share your life with your heavenly Father, and to ask for guidance.

Luke 18:1-14

Irreproachable and irrefutable!

 

[tonyrey]

You were saying Christ’s “Our Father” might be improved upon if we included the words…for the poor…or people who are starving, say.

Well, Christ was very general…“give US this day our daily bread”. I think by “us”, he meant ALL of us, the entire world, including, and especially, the starving, poor, and needy.
I think he was asking that our basic needs be met.

Well, we know people of faith when they prayed, were VERY powerful. We’ve had accounts of the dead being raised due to prayer of, say, the apostles, and even a saint or two. Demons have been expelled. So, we need to continue to ask for our needs, as Christ did, on earth. He would ask

We’ve had numerous accounts of spontaneous healings and other miracles.

Not all prayers are selfish. Some saints have prayed, unselfishly, to be given suffering to atone for the sins of others.

Plus, the previous post with some prayer being thanksgiving, praise, contrition, …those are unselfish, and I don’t think it’s selfish to ask for help of someone else.

I also am not really sure if it’s even so selfish to ask for help when we need it, in a sense. Well, I’d consider it selfish if our prayer was to hit the lottery, millions of dollars, but I don’t consider it selfish to ask that our needs be met.

I notice that Christ didn’t pray for everyone else and exclude himself. He included himself! So, that’s our model to emulate. We, too, when we pray must also include ourselves in our prayers. He did not say, “Give them their daily bread” but “give US our daily bread!”

Further, on his way of the cross, he told us to pray for ourselves and for our children, rather than him. So, is it selfish to pray for ourselves? No. In fact, Christ told us to!

As to what is selfishness? Selfishness is taking…without asking…not giving thanks for what’s received. It’s not in recognizing our dependence on God. It’s an act of humility to ask for our needs and pride, not to.

In a word…what’s selfishness? It’s not selfish to ask for our needs. What’s selfishness is thinking we don’t need to ask or thank God…and also sin.

Filial ingratitude is conspicuous when we take everything for granted - without one word of thanks…