Is praying to Our Lady and other saints contrary to the Commandments?

[Iron_Donkey]

Just to add, the use of the word worship to mean the honor due only to God is fairly recent. So if you look in older documents/prayers, you might be confused. But the distinction was always there, just expressed with the Greek words dulia (honor to the saints), hyperdulia (the honor due to Mary above the other saints), and Latria, the honor due to God alone - different in kind and degree from dulia and hyper dulia.

(Note also that saints are honored because of the fact that they honored God, which in fact means that honoring a saint is saying how important it is to honor God. Which means that such honoring of saints actually honors God more than the saint - it is saying that the most important thing about this saint, the thing that makes them worthy of our respect, is that they respected God. God is so worthy of respect that even doing a good job at respecting Him makes you worthy of respect, albeit of a different sort.)

 

[Slaney]

The Bible says to pray for one another, so I assume it’s ok…

 

[Rosebud77]

What I was taught is that we do not pray to saints; we ask saints to pray for us.

And of course it is not mandatory and I never do it as Jesus is enough and more than enough for me.

 

[bzkoss236]

What I was taught is that we do not pray to saints; we ask saints to pray for us.

It all depends on your definition of “prayer”. Just like how worship has evolved to mean the honor due to God alone, prayer seems to also be evolving in that direction. If it does, then no, we wouldn’t “pray” to the Saints, because they are not God. But as it stands, it still means simply to ask, petition, beg, or plead.

 

[Didascalia]

This is likely an older English translation of Greek or Latin which has a distinction between worship due to God alone and honor that can be given to any. In more modern language, we say that we honor the saints, but worship God alone.

And when we ask for the saints to pray for us, it shouldn’t be to the exclusion of praying to God ourselves.

In the book of James, we are told to pray for one another, and there is no reason why this should cease in heaven. Following the command to pray for one another, it reads that the fervent prayers of the righteous are powerful. And who among men is more righteous than the saints (to the exception of Jesus)?

If we are not to pray to the Saints, asking for their intercession, then we also shouldn’t be asking our friends and family to pray for us either, because by doing so, not only are we also praying to them (‘pray’ (verb) to ask; to petition; to beg; to plead), but we are also making them intercessors and mediators. Christ is to be understood as the sole mediator between God and Men (as a whole) and Men’s prayers for each other go through Christ before reaching the Father or the Holy Spirit, or you could say, the ultimate mediator, where we play the role of a small mediator, but not to the extent to where it is usurping Christ’s ultimate mediatorship.

There is a considerable difference in praying for somebody and praying to somebody. Angels are creatures just as you and I are. Is the Our Father not sufficient like Christ said it was?

 

[bzkoss236]

There is a considerable difference in praying for somebody and praying to somebody. Angels are creatures just as you and I are. Is the Our Father not sufficient like Christ said it was?

My point being, that if we are to pray for each other, then why would simply being separated bodily from earth, but still alive within the Body of Christ, keep those in heaven from praying for us?

Like I mentioned before about the definition of prayer meaning to ask. So, if we were to just simply go to Christ, why should we ask our friends and family to pray for us? But by doing that, we are not obeying Christ. Christ wants us to work together, because it builds unity, and that is one thing that Christ wants from his Church. He even waited until his mother, Mary, told him about the lack of wine at the wedding in Cana to do something about it, even though he would have known full well that there was a lack of wine.

Is the Our Father sufficient? Yes, but that would be one prayer vs many for the same cause (ie. no unity).

Does Christ want us to pray for one another? Yes

How are we supposed to pray for one another unless we tell each other what we need prayers for?

Also, Paul said that the fervent prayers of the righteous are powerful. Who among us mere men is more righteous than the Saints?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

There is a considerable difference in praying for somebody and praying to somebody. Angels are creatures just as you and I are. Is the Our Father not sufficient like Christ said it was?

1. Did Jesus say the Our Father was all we needed? It was an example of how to pray - and certainly a good one - but I’m pretty sure he never said that is the only way we should/need to pray.
2. There is a difference between praying to Bob and praying for Bob, but asking Bob to pray for me is in fact a form of prayer. It is not the same sort of prayer you address to God (and probably doesn’t include the same level of reverence that is in the prayer we address to the saints and angels in heaven either). You don’t say “O Bob, divine ruler of the universe, please have mercy on my soul when we meet at my death.” But you might ask Bob to pray for us at the hour of our death.

Examine the differences between the Our Father and the Hail Mary, and you’ll see what I’m getting at. On the one hand, you are addressing the Father, God, the eternal I Am and source of all things that exist. On the other you are addressing a very blessed creature and asking her to beseech this Divine Ruler on our behalf.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There is a considerable difference in praying for somebody and praying to somebody. Angels are creatures just as you and I are. Is the Our Father not sufficient like Christ said it was?

Jesus never said that we were ONLY to pray the “Our Father” (of which there are two different versions, one quite short) and that the Our Father was ‘sufficient’. Might I ask you to cite the chapter and verse which make this claim?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Furthermore, the OP is missing a most important point.

Those who have died and are in heaven with Jesus are in heaven with Jesus.

They are, as Scripture tells us, united perfectly to Him. They are ONE with Jesus.

Now please tell me exactly how a person can pray to Jesus/Father/Holy Spirit without the saints being aware of it, if they are ‘One’ with Jesus?

If any given saint (Let’s call him “Sanctus”) is ONE with Jesus, doesn’t Sanctus see, hear, and experience everything Jesus does?

If you don’t think so, how could they be “ONE” with Him (as Scripture insists they are)? How can you be 'one" with a person and ‘unaware’ of what the person is aware of?

So if you are asking good old Sanctus to pray with you to Jesus, and old Sanctus is ONE with Jesus, he and Jesus are experiencing things AS ONE. Now we, as St. Paul says, do not ‘see clearly’. But SANCTUS and the other saints see face to face with God.

If you insist, “I only want to speak to Jesus”, be aware that Sanctus is hearing you ANYWAY (because Sanctus is one with Jesus).

And that you’re in danger of missing out on the SECOND of the two great commandments thereby–to love your neighbor as yourself.

If you are joining in prayer with Sanctus, who is perfectly ONE with Jesus, it isn’t just ‘your prayer alone’ now. It is prayer with another (something we are by the way asked to do) and moreover, prayer with one who HIMSELF is 'at one" with Christ.

Your limited human prayer is thus given an added ‘ommph’ by the prayer from one who is ‘at one’ with JESUS Himself.

Your limited human prayer is like a child taking his first steps. The parent is pleased because that is the ‘best’ that the child can do, and because it marks the start of the child being able to do ‘more’ as he grows.

Prayer with the saints is like a child taking his first steps to his dad while his mother is right there, to help ‘catch’ him if he falls, to offer a ‘moral support’. It doesn’t take AWAY from the child’s steps; it doesn’t hinder the child, it doesn’t keep the child from growing. It is a help. Not only that, but it is humble, acknowledging that the person still has a ‘way to go’ before being able to be, like Sanctus, ‘at one’ with Christ.

Not everybody is ready to be humble and childlike in this way, but it is only ONE way and that is why it is not ‘required’ of any individual. But it is most certainly not wrong.

 

[GregoriusC]

In regards to “Worship” and “Prayer,” recall the differences - In order to “Worship” (due to God alone), there must be a form of sacrifice (ie: Catholics offer sacrifice in The Mass). “Prayer” is not understood as worship if there is no form of sacrifice. For example, we can invoke the help of the Saints in prayer to pray for us (Just like if you were to ask your neighbour to intercede for your petition), but you’d not offer something to the saints that would make them more important than God - that would be wrong.

Also remember who the saints are… people we can look up to as models of faith - just as if you had a grandad that was a good role model & you aspired to follow his footsteps, so too, the saints are role models in faith… they are also truly alive in God’s presence - not dead, or deaf… Indeed, only God is omnipresent, but who ever suggested that time in heaven is measured the same as here on earth? In God’s presence, by him, the saints are made aware of our needs and petitions.

I hope that is a little helpful, at least, this is my understanding of it. Of course, there is always room for growth and correction

Peace to you!

 

[bango53]

we are to commune with the saints, like go in prayer with, I pray with saints to our heavenly Father. the apostles creed, says it all.The Gloria ,I ask you my brothers and sisters to pray with me to the Lord our God.

 

[Tmking1909]

Those who believe should not die but have eternal life so there for the saints physically aint here but there soul has never died but sill live so they can interced for us just like us can pray for each other

 

[emil2804]

The bible does say that the prayers of a righteous man are powerfull indeed. Although I have found in the bible cases of the living interceding for the living and for the living interceding for the dead.

I have not found any example in the bible of the living asking the dead for intercession. There must be more to it but I’ve not found it yet.

It’s good that you’ve asked this.

How about Lk 16:24? It may not exactly meet your criteria because both are dead in this story. But Jesus himself is talking about Abraham being used as an intercessor. In this case what the man was asking for was beyond Abraham’s capacity to have God grant, but I believe it establishes the principle that one can pray to the saints for their intercession.

 

[Gidge]

This post doesn’t sound like a question a traditional Catholic would entertain, IMO.

It does sound like a question a Protestant might ask, though.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by John of Damascus
Info on St. John Damascene: newadvent.org/cathen/08459b.htm
Full Text: newadvent.org/fathers/3304.htm

His exposition of the faith is a response to an Iconoclast movement that occurred during the 8th century, which is a heretical belief that veneration of images, prayers to the saints, building of monuments, and venerating the remains of saints was sinful.

Here is an excerpt pertaining to the honor due to the Saints:

To the saints honour must be paid as friends of Christ, as sons and heirs of God: in the words of John the theologian and evangelist, As many as received Him, to them gave He power to became sons of God. John 1:12 So that they are no longer servants, but sons: and if sons, also heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ : and the Lord in the holy Gospels says to His apostles, You are My friends John 15:14 . Henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knows not what his lord does. And further, if the Creator and Lord of all things is called also King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:16 and God of Gods, surely also the saints are gods and lords and kings. For of these God is and is called God and Lord and King. For I am the God of Abraham, He said to Moses, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Exodus 3:6 And God made Moses a god to Pharaoh. Now I mean gods and kings and lords not in nature, but as rulers and masters of their passions, and as preserving a truthful likeness to the divine image according to which they were made (for the image of a king is also called king), and as being united to God of their own free-will and receiving Him as an indweller and becoming by grace through participation with Him what He is Himself by nature. Surely, then, the worshippers and friends and sons of God are to be held in honour? For the honour shown to the most thoughtful of fellow-servants is a proof of good feeling towards the common Master.

These are made treasuries and pure habitations of God: For I will dwell in them, said God, and walk in them, and I will be their God. The divine Scripture likewise says that the souls of the just are in God’s hand Wisdom 3:1 and death cannot lay hold of them. For death is rather the sleep of the saints than their death. For they travailed in this life and shall to the end , and Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints. What then, is more precious than to be in the hand of God? For God is Life and Light, and those who are in God’s hand are in life and light.

Further, that God dwelt even in their bodies in spiritual wise , the Apostle tells us, saying, Do you not know that your bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16, and The Lord is that Spirit 2 Corinthians 3:17, and If any one destroy the temple of God, him will God destroy. 1 Corinthians 3:17 Surely, then, we must ascribe honour to the living temples of God, the living tabernacles of God. These while they lived stood with confidence before God.

The Master Christ made the remains of the saints to be fountains of salvation to us, pouring forth manifold blessings and abounding in oil of sweet fragrance: and let no one disbelieve this. For if water burst in the desert from the steep and solid rock at God’s will Exodus 17:6 and from the jaw-bone of an *** to quench Samson’s thirst Judges 15:17, is it incredible that fragrant oil should burst forth from the martyrs’ remains? By no means, at least to those who know the power of God and the honour which He accords His saints.
…

I cannot paste the entire thing as it is too long. You can finish reading it here: newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm (chapter 15 in Book IV). Chapter 16 is also a good read. A read through that just might help you to understand what the scripture is teaching you, and why venerating the saints (prayers to the saints) is still practiced to this day by the Church.

 

[Doug_S]

Furthermore, the OP is missing a most important point.

Those who have died and are in heaven with Jesus are in heaven with Jesus.

They are, as Scripture tells us, united perfectly to Him. They are ONE with Jesus.

Now please tell me exactly how a person can pray to Jesus/Father/Holy Spirit without the saints being aware of it, if they are ‘One’ with Jesus?

If any given saint (Let’s call him “Sanctus”) is ONE with Jesus, doesn’t Sanctus see, hear, and experience everything Jesus does?

If you don’t think so, how could they be “ONE” with Him (as Scripture insists they are)? How can you be 'one" with a person and ‘unaware’ of what the person is aware of?

So if you are asking good old Sanctus to pray with you to Jesus, and old Sanctus is ONE with Jesus, he and Jesus are experiencing things AS ONE. Now we, as St. Paul says, do not ‘see clearly’. But SANCTUS and the other saints see face to face with God.

If you insist, “I only want to speak to Jesus”, be aware that Sanctus is hearing you ANYWAY (because Sanctus is one with Jesus).

And that you’re in danger of missing out on the SECOND of the two great commandments thereby–to love your neighbor as yourself.

If you are joining in prayer with Sanctus, who is perfectly ONE with Jesus, it isn’t just ‘your prayer alone’ now. It is prayer with another (something we are by the way asked to do) and moreover, prayer with one who HIMSELF is 'at one" with Christ.

Your limited human prayer is thus given an added ‘ommph’ by the prayer from one who is ‘at one’ with JESUS Himself.

Your limited human prayer is like a child taking his first steps. The parent is pleased because that is the ‘best’ that the child can do, and because it marks the start of the child being able to do ‘more’ as he grows.

Prayer with the saints is like a child taking his first steps to his dad while his mother is right there, to help ‘catch’ him if he falls, to offer a ‘moral support’. It doesn’t take AWAY from the child’s steps; it doesn’t hinder the child, it doesn’t keep the child from growing. It is a help. Not only that, but it is humble, acknowledging that the person still has a ‘way to go’ before being able to be, like Sanctus, ‘at one’ with Christ.

Not everybody is ready to be humble and childlike in this way, but it is only ONE way and that is why it is not ‘required’ of any individual. But it is most certainly not wrong.

We need to remember the trinity. Jesus is at the right hand of God and they are in heaven with the saints. We have been given the Holy Spirit, this is how we communicate with the Father and the Son.

Therefor the dead although alive in Christ can’t hear our prayers. They are certainly to involved with the worship of God and Jesus.
Also I was listening to Patrick Madrid the other day and he was explaining that communication with the dead is not a teaching of the Catholic church. These two beliefs are quit conflicting.

The Apostle Paul instructs us to ask the saints to pray for us. Ok then, who are the saints?

Paul refers to the living body of Christ as the saints in all of his letters to the church. Certainty the saints did not all die off, impossible the church would then be dead. We know that in not going to happen. Check it out for yourself. Pick a letter.

I know this is a foreign idea to Catholics as I was once one.

May God bless us all with knowledge.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We need to remember the trinity. Jesus is at the right hand of God and they are in heaven with the saints. We have been given the Holy Spirit, this is how we communicate with the Father and the Son.

Therefor the dead although alive in Christ can’t hear our prayers. They are certainly to involved with the worship of God and Jesus.
Also I was listening to Patrick Madrid the other day and he was explaining that communication with the dead is not a teaching of the Catholic church. These two beliefs are quit conflicting.

The Apostle Paul instructs us to ask the saints to pray for us. Ok then, who are the saints?

Paul refers to the living body of Christ as the saints in all of his letters to the church. Certainty the saints did not all die off, impossible the church would then be dead. We know that in not going to happen. Check it out for yourself. Pick a letter.

I know this is a foreign idea to Catholics as I was once one.

May God bless us all with knowledge.

And may He bless YOU above all so that you return to the authentic and correct Catholic teaching and not some man-made teaching.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Also I was listening to Patrick Madrid the other day and he was explaining that communication with the dead is not a teaching of the Catholic church. These two beliefs are quit conflicting.

If you take the time to understand the teaching, you would see they do not conflict. Communication with the dead in terms of holding a seance is forbidden by the Church, but there are several paragraphs in the Catechism explaining the teaching of the Communin of Saints.

This sounds to me like someone is taking something they don’t fully understand and using their ignorance to raise confusion and doubt about a different subject they disagree with.

 

[Doug_S]

If you take the time to understand the teaching, you would see they do not conflict. Communication with the dead in terms of holding a seance is forbidden by the Church, but there are several paragraphs in the Catechism explaining the teaching of the Communin of Saints.

This sounds to me like someone is taking something they don’t fully understand and using their ignorance to raise confusion and doubt about a different subject they disagree with.

I do understand the churches teaching on this matter. I just don’t agree with it.

If you would take a little time and search the letters Paul wrote to the churches, you can see that he repeatedly refers to the saints as the living body of Christ.

This is important, because when he instructs us to ask the saints to pray for us we need to understand that it is those who are living.

Paul also wrote: 1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

We need to know that when a man dies and enters the after life he is no longer man, but spirit. Christ however, being all things, ascended into heaven as man and spirit.

Please take a look it will do no harm.

May God give us all knowledge to discern good from bad and wright from wrong.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

I do understand the churches teaching on this matter. I just don’t agree with it.

If you would take a little time and search the letters Paul wrote to the churches, you can see that he repeatedly refers to the saints as the living body of Christ.

This is important, because when he instructs us to ask the saints to pray for us we need to understand that it is those who are living.

Paul also wrote: 1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

We need to know that when a man dies and enters the after life he is no longer man, but spirit. Christ however, being all things, ascended into heaven as man and spirit.

Please take a look it will do no harm.

May God give us all knowledge to discern good from bad and wright from wrong.

Doug, the verse you quote is often used to counter this practice. However, it is useless if you truly understand the Catholic teaching on the communion of saints.

The teaching of the communion of saints is that we are all members from the moment of our baptism. Our membership doesn’t end with our death, but rather we are granted a more exalted status within this community because we have been blessed to be with God and see Him face to face.

Anyone in this community, whether in Heaven or on Earth, may be asked to pray for other members of the community.

You could ask me to pray for you, or you could ask the saints in Heaven to pray for you. Either way you are not replacing Christ as mediator, but asking for several people to take your petition to Him.

Which is more effective, taking a petition that you signed to your congressman or one that several people in the community have signed? The more people you have in your corner, the better. Especially when those people have already “made their robes white with the blood of the Lamb.” Not only have they been made perfect, but they are right there walking with God.