Is pre-marial relationship allowed in Christianity/Catholcism?

[Auzer]

Is relationship before marriage allowed in Christianity? As far as I know,in 16th century…Christian societies were segregated.Women and men could barely even talk until they were married.This was the society of West in 16th/17th century and it was all due to religion because at that time Christianity had still some role in the society…but now West has changed UPSIDE DOWN ! Having a relationship,kissing,touching etc before marriage is NORMAL and is,surprisingly,also not considered “unbiblical”…So how this revolution occurred? Is it due to the fact that West left Christianity and adapted secularism? Christianity died in the West and is now pretty much an ineffective religion. Isn’t this culture bad for family life? Also , is having a Girlfriend/Boyfriend before marriage allowed in Christianity/bible? Kissing,touching and all that?

What are your views on it?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Is relationship before marriage allowed in Christianity? As far as I know,in 16th century…Christian societies were segregated.Women and men could barely even talk until they were married.This was the society of West in 16th/17th century and it was all due to religion because at that time Christianity had still some role in the society…but now West has changed UPSIDE DOWN ! Having a relationship,kissing,touching etc before marriage is NORMAL and is,surprisingly,also not considered “unbiblical”…So how this revolution occurred? Is it due to the fact that West left Christianity and adapted secularism? Christianity died in the West and is now pretty much an ineffective religion. Isn’t this culture bad for family life? Also , is having a Girlfriend/Boyfriend before marriage allowed in Christianity/bible? Kissing,touching and all that?

What are your views on it?

My view is this one.

Catholic Church says that for marriage you need full understanding of what you are doing, full consent on what you are going and that marriage is a relationship of love between a woman meant by God to participate in the work of creation.

I like to see the big picture before seeing the small details. For I think all the details depend on the big picture.

Many old marriages did not fulfill God’s will for they were agreements betweens fortunes os people who doing so could keep their fortunes. Many people who entered convents had no vocantion at all, it was a case of missing chances of marriage or forced entrances (the cases of pedophilia many times generated in people who went ro rpiesthood without vocation).

Nowadays, people start trying partners and end up having a dozen before marrying. I do not think this is God’s will either. Many nowadays people criticize the old times but the present times present distorted bahaviours of what God wants.

So we must endevor to make what God wants.

 

[chevalier]

“Kissing, touching and all that,” shouldn’t be a way to arouse or calm down sexual passion. It is seeking (or quenching––by fulfilling) sexual desire, which is forbidden before marriage. Lesser things than intercourse can be mortal sins too.

On the other hand, some people confuse Old Testatement or mediaeval or Victorian social customs with morality.

 

[Archedreamer]

Pre-marital relationships are clearly not allowed in Christianity. (Unrepentant) Fornicators are repeatedly damned to Hell in the New Testament. It could be a metaphore… but a metaphore only is real if her materiality (in this case the fornication) is real… so it is real the damnation to fornicators. I don’t know well what is Catholicism… I know that the Church’s hierarchy is able to not condemn fornication… just like I am able to kill one hundred people (It is workable…)… but doing that the hierachy would lose their divine endorsement… so it would not be valide…

I think that not all previous physical ways of love are wrong. Touching is clearly sexual so it is against the purity that a doncel (male maiden) and a maiden must keep. That is a clear sin and so it is not allowed. But I think that just to kiss (if it is a kiss like that the girls dream, not a passionate kiss) is not a sin… just something of a pair…

But it is just my tought… don’t trust me more than a common person.

 

[JRKH]

Is relationship before marriage allowed in Christianity? As far as I know,in 16th century…Christian societies were segregated.Women and men could barely even talk until they were married.This was the society of West in 16th/17th century and it was all due to religion because at that time Christianity had still some role in the society…

I don’t know that your description is all that Accurate of the 16th century - but it is certainly true that societal norms have changed over time.

but now West has changed UPSIDE DOWN ! Having a relationship, kissing, touching etc before marriage is NORMAL and is,surprisingly,also not considered “unbiblical”…

I think that it is too general to say “in the west” such and such…I know of Christian sects (denominations) who still do practice very strict protocols in regard to dating and so forth. Then of course there are those - a great many - who are not Christian at all…or are Christian in name only…So - your blanket statement is really reflects a “perception” more than a reality.

So how this revolution occurred? Is it due to the fact that West left Christianity and adapted secularism?

The West has adopted a “Freedom of Religion” approach and that freedom includes the freedom from religion is one so chooses.

Christianity died in the West and is now pretty much an ineffective religion.

I’d be interested in why you say this. What makes you think that Christianity is “ineffective”?

Isn’t this culture bad for family life?

There is not a “This culture”…There are many cultures. Many sub-cultures and modes of life in the U.S. ranging from purely secular and hedonistic, to very religious and pious.

Also, is having a Girlfriend/Boyfriend before marriage allowed in Christianity/bible? Kissing,touching and all that?

So far as I know the Bible says little on the matter, except that we are to be chaste and that applies to both before and after we are married…

Peace
James

 

[MtnDwellar]

…but now West has changed UPSIDE DOWN ! Having a relationship,kissing,touching etc before marriage is NORMAL and is,surprisingly,also not considered “unbiblical”…So how this revolution occurred? Is it due to the fact that West left Christianity and adapted secularism? Christianity died in the West and is now pretty much an ineffective religion. Isn’t this culture bad for family life? Also , is having a Girlfriend/Boyfriend before marriage allowed in Christianity/bible? Kissing,touching and all that?

What are your views on it?

It seems that you have a pretty good understanding of what has happened to Christianity. Yes, Western Society has embraced secularism.

While the change had been somewhat gradual, the slope steepened during 1960’s and 1970’s. “If it feels good, do it.” was the mantra of an entire generation. People and also businesses adopted a very short term perspective on life and their actions. People engaged in premarital relationships because they offered short term pleasure and satisfaction. They completely disregarded the long term personal effects,the effects on society, and the eternal effects on their immortal souls.

I find it interesting how individual morality migrated into businesses. Business has also turned it’s focus on the short term. A company is only as good as it’s last quarterly report. Corporations will act in ways that provide short term profits, knowing full well that the long term effects are devastating. One merely needs to look at the banking meltdown or Enron for examples.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Is relationship before marriage allowed in Christianity? As far as I know,in 16th century…Christian societies were segregated.Women and men could barely even talk until they were married.This was the society of West in 16th/17th century and it was all due to religion because at that time Christianity had still some role in the society…but now West has changed UPSIDE DOWN ! Having a relationship,kissing,touching etc before marriage is NORMAL and is,surprisingly,also not considered “unbiblical”…So how this revolution occurred? Is it due to the fact that West left Christianity and adapted secularism? Christianity died in the West and is now pretty much an ineffective religion. Isn’t this culture bad for family life? Also , is having a Girlfriend/Boyfriend before marriage allowed in Christianity/bible? Kissing,touching and all that?

What are your views on it?

My views on it: it’s way better now than before. Not a fan of arranged marriages/paying for brides. Strikes me as something akin to chattel slavery.

 

[1ke]

I don’t think you have a very accurate understanding of life in the 16th and 17th centuries. Women and men were not segregated as you suggest.

However, “kissing and touching” do not necessarily follow from social interaction. The alternatives are not limited “segregation” **or **“kissing and touching”. The other alternative includes properly chaperoned, public, and group interaction. Which occurred all the time.

 

[Auzer]

I’d be interested in why you say this. What makes you think that Christianity is “ineffective”?

Well what role does Christianity play in the society? Do people even care about Bible or Christianity? Does today’s culture according to Christianity? Many of people I know never even read the Bible. I know some “Christians” who say that bible has some very stupid things and that its not the word of God entirely. West is a secular society. Many people are leaving the religion all to gather. Just last week , I was reading the report that in English , Christianity decreased ~10% within just 5 years (from 78% in 2005 to 70% in 2011) …Scandinavian countries have LITERALLY become Atheist. In a survey , 85% of the respondents responded as “no religion” …In Russia , Christianity dropped from over 70% to less than even 50% now … Even the “Christians” in the West are mostly non-Christians that never read bible , never care about Christianity in their life , engage in pre-marial sex , drugs ,drinking excessively and converting to other religion just for fun (these traits are found specially in the Youth) …OR just see the popular youth culture…their music? Does these facts , in any way , tells you that Christianity is STILL alive in the West and not dying? Less in the South many practicing Christians are there but mostly from older generations…Overall , as an “outsider” , when I look at West—there is no or very less ‘religion/Christianity’ I see.

My views on it: it’s way better now than before. Not a fan of arranged marriages/paying for brides. Strikes me as something akin to chattel slavery.

Well you sir don’t have full view on arrange marriages. Arrange marriage is NOT a “forced marriage” …In my country , most marriages go like this : Parent would ask you (boy/girl) that if you like any girl/boy than tell us. They would meet the person’s family…ask about his job etc etc …If the child say that no he/she doesn’t like anyone…Then parents would choose a person for the marriage and ask their child "Is that OK? (asking about looks) …If the girl/boy likes the person their parents showed to them…then they’ll say yes and they would start talking on phone/meeting etc etc .then they would get engaged and would ‘explore’ their partner and talk to them and all kind of stuff…It they feel no problem then they will both get married. THIS is the case is most "arrange marriages…which,I think, is WAY superior to the current “dating” system in the West where a girl would make a boyfriend in highschool…Would do kissing/touching and in many cases (pre-marial sex) …then they would “broke up” and then she’d make another “boyfriend” and the same thing goes…then onto college and another boyfriend and after living such life for 10/15 years —she would atlast get married. Her husband would have had many “relationships” and she would also have had many “relationships” before marriage.Ever wondered why there’s such a high divorce rate in the West and not in other countries , where family values are still in pretty much intact?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Well you sir don’t have full view on arrange marriages. Arrange marriage is NOT a “forced marriage”

I’m sure there are some “voluntary” arranged marriages, whatever the heck that would mean… but that surely doesn’t discount the fact that people are forced into arranged marriages all the time.

…In my country , most marriages go like this

Why do you have USA listed as your country? Just a temporary place of residence?

: Parent would ask you (boy/girl) that if you like any girl/boy than tell us. They would meet the person’s family…ask about his job etc etc …If the child say that no he/she doesn’t like anyone…Then parents would choose a person for the marriage and ask their child "Is that OK? (asking about looks) …If the girl/boy likes the person their parents showed to them…then they’ll say yes and they would start talking on phone/meeting etc etc .then they would get engaged and would ‘explore’ their partner and talk to them and all kind of stuff…It they feel no problem then they will both get married. THIS is the case is most "arrange marriages…which,I think, is WAY superior to the current “dating” system in the West where a girl would make a boyfriend in highschool…Would do kissing/touching and in many cases (pre-marial sex) …then they would “broke up” and then she’d make another “boyfriend” and the same thing goes…then onto college and another boyfriend and after living such life for 10/15 years —she would atlast get married. Her husband would have had many “relationships” and she would also have had many “relationships” before marriage.

So perhaps we have a mix up on terms? That sounds like courting.

Ever wondered why there’s such a high divorce rate in the West and not in other countries , where family values are still in pretty much intact?

Sure. In the West, men and women are not forced (legally or culturally) to remain in loveless, unhappy marriages.

The ideal is to have a happy, loving marriage - not just a marriage.

I agree with you that divorce is a terrible thing! On the other hand, it’s not any worse than an abusive relationship.

 

[JRKH]

Well what role does Christianity play in the society?

Christianity plays a very large role in society. There numerous Catholic Hospitals. Nearly every major city in the U.S. will have at least one. There are Catholic as well as other Christian Schools ranging from re-school through High school as well as many Catholic and non-Catholic Christian universities as well. Christian Charitable organizations do literally billions of dollars worth of social works including feeding, clothing and housing the poor. Catholic groups run adoption agencies. Catholics have one of the most well organized campaigns to overturn abortion.

Do people even care about Bible or Christianity?

Every week, in thousands upon thousands of churches throughout the western countries millions of people come together to hear the word, to pray to God, to praise Him and to seek the salvation of souls…One soul at a time. These same people go out to spread the gospel, to do works of mercy and to glorify God and build the kingdom.

Does today’s culture according to Christianity? Many of people I know never even read the Bible. I know some “Christians” who say that bible has some very stupid things and that its not the word of God entirely.

Again - I must say that “Culture”, especially in the United States can be a very tricky word. For the U.S. is not one culture but many. That is the benefit and the bane of our free society.
And yes - I have no doubt that that you have met people who do not know the Bible and do not believe the Bible. I have too. But does that mean that Christianity is ineffective or that you are talking to the wrong people…
Here you will find many, many people who know the Bible and Love it - Who Love God and seek to serve Him.

West is a secular society. Many people are leaving the religion all to gather. Just last week , I was reading the report that in English , Christianity decreased ~10% within just 5 years (from 78% in 2005 to 70% in 2011) …Scandinavian countries have LITERALLY become Atheist. In a survey , 85% of the respondents responded as “no religion” …In Russia , Christianity dropped from over 70% to less than even 50% now …

These are sad numbers but what do they reflect? Do they really mean that "Christianity is ineffective?? I don’t think so. Christ said that many are called but few are chosen. He described, in the parable of the sower that, of the four types of soil the seed could land on, only one would yield fruit.

Even the “Christians” in the West are mostly non-Christians that never read bible , never care about Christianity in their life , engage in pre-marial sex , drugs ,drinking excessively and converting to other religion just for fun (these traits are found specially in the Youth) …OR just see the popular youth culture…their music?

This may be. But God has given all persons free will. If they choose to behave this way… all we can do is pray for them.

Does these facts , in any way , tells you that Christianity is STILL alive in the West and not dying? Less in the South many practicing Christians are there but mostly from older generations…Overall , as an “outsider” , when I look at West—there is no or very less ‘religion/Christianity’ I see.

I was one of those who left the faith in my late teens, spent 35 years living in sin and returned to the Church. Having done that, what do you think I believe…I believe that the Church is alive and vibrant. That it is smaller might be true. That it is dying…sorry but that is not possible. The Gates of hell will not prevail.
The Church exists and reaches out to those in need and whoa re ready to accept the good news.
Could our western societies be better? Certainly they could. But in a free, democratic, pluralistic society this must be done by winning hearts and minds and not by theocratic lawmaking.
Some societies might “look” religious but are they really?? What is simmering just below the outward signs of piety that are enforced by law that make it illegal to convert?

I do not know you background, whether you were born in America or moved here, but I can assure you that, for all the troubles that one can point to in “The West” and in Christianity in the west, the Church is not dying and indeed cannot be killed off.

Peace
James

 

[severus68]

Well what role does Christianity play in the society? Do people even care about Bible or Christianity? Does today’s culture according to Christianity? Many of people I know never even read the Bible. I know some “Christians” who say that bible has some very stupid things and that its not the word of God entirely. West is a secular society. Many people are leaving the religion all to gather. Just last week , I was reading the report that in English , Christianity decreased ~10% within just 5 years (from 78% in 2005 to 70% in 2011) …Scandinavian countries have LITERALLY become Atheist. In a survey , 85% of the respondents responded as “no religion” …In Russia , Christianity dropped from over 70% to less than even 50% now … Even the “Christians” in the West are mostly non-Christians that never read bible , never care about Christianity in their life , engage in pre-marial sex , drugs ,drinking excessively and converting to other religion just for fun (these traits are found specially in the Youth) …OR just see the popular youth culture…their music? Does these facts , in any way , tells you that Christianity is STILL alive in the West and not dying? Less in the South many practicing Christians are there but mostly from older generations…Overall , as an “outsider” , when I look at West—there is no or very less ‘religion/Christianity’ I see.

Well you sir don’t have full view on arrange marriages. Arrange marriage is NOT a “forced marriage” …In my country , most marriages go like this : Parent would ask you (boy/girl) that if you like any girl/boy than tell us. They would meet the person’s family…ask about his job etc etc …If the child say that no he/she doesn’t like anyone…Then parents would choose a person for the marriage and ask their child "Is that OK? (asking about looks) …If the girl/boy likes the person their parents showed to them…then they’ll say yes and they would start talking on phone/meeting etc etc .then they would get engaged and would ‘explore’ their partner and talk to them and all kind of stuff…It they feel no problem then they will both get married. THIS is the case is most "arrange marriages…which,I think, is WAY superior to the current “dating” system in the West where a girl would make a boyfriend in highschool…Would do kissing/touching and in many cases (pre-marial sex) …then they would “broke up” and then she’d make another “boyfriend” and the same thing goes…then onto college and another boyfriend and after living such life for 10/15 years —she would atlast get married. Her husband would have had many “relationships” and she would also have had many “relationships” before marriage.Ever wondered why there’s such a high divorce rate in the West and not in other countries , where family values are still in pretty much intact?

I see you are in California so the “my country” you refer to is the country you came from.

Yes, the idea behind arranged marriages may seem well and good and it worked well to a certain extent in the past. I am not sure what country you are referring to but I will take India as an example.

Not sure what the law is now but arranged marriages mean dowries. I understand the dowry is meant to go with and for the bride. How about the abuses - not sufficient dowry so the wife is treated badly by her in laws and husband. Today women are educated and given the freedom to travel etc, something not allowed in the past. Many work and so have financial independence which means they will not accept a man as a husband for security. In the past, abuses were hidden.Not all arranged marriages were/are about the woman having the right to say no. Today, the good arranged marriages are those where the woman really has the right to make the ultimate decision.

What about arranged marriages today in rural areas, in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc?

What is shown in some Hollywood movies is not what real life is about for most people. I am a Christian/Catholic and I believe for the most people who consider themselves Christiians try to follow the tenets of Christianity. We fail sometimes, we falter, some may disagree on things, some may be misguided but then we are human.

Are you referring to all Christians throughout the world or only in the West? What about the Christians in the country you are from?

 

[severus68]

I’m sure there are some “voluntary” arranged marriages, whatever the heck that would mean… but that surely doesn’t discount the fact that people are forced into arranged marriages all the time.

Why do you have USA listed as your country? Just a temporary place of residence?

So perhaps we have a mix up on terms? That sounds like courting.

Sure. In the West, men and women are not forced (legally or culturally) to remain in loveless, unhappy marriages.

The ideal is to have a happy, loving marriage - not just a marriage.

I agree with you that divorce is a terrible thing! On the other hand, it’s not any worse than an abusive relationship.

 

[severus68]

Christianity plays a very large role in society. There numerous Catholic Hospitals. Nearly every major city in the U.S. will have at least one. There are Catholic as well as other Christian Schools ranging from re-school through High school as well as many Catholic and non-Catholic Christian universities as well. Christian Charitable organizations do literally billions of dollars worth of social works including feeding, clothing and housing the poor. Catholic groups run adoption agencies. Catholics have one of the most well organized campaigns to overturn abortion.

Every week, in thousands upon thousands of churches throughout the western countries millions of people come together to hear the word, to pray to God, to praise Him and to seek the salvation of souls…One soul at a time. These same people go out to spread the gospel, to do works of mercy and to glorify God and build the kingdom.

Again - I must say that “Culture”, especially in the United States can be a very tricky word. For the U.S. is not one culture but many. That is the benefit and the bane of our free society.
And yes - I have no doubt that that you have met people who do not know the Bible and do not believe the Bible. I have too. But does that mean that Christianity is ineffective or that you are talking to the wrong people…
Here you will find many, many people who know the Bible and Love it - Who Love God and seek to serve Him.

These are sad numbers but what do they reflect? Do they really mean that "Christianity is ineffective?? I don’t think so. Christ said that many are called but few are chosen. He described, in the parable of the sower that, of the four types of soil the seed could land on, only one would yield fruit.

This may be. But God has given all persons free will. If they choose to behave this way… all we can do is pray for them.

I was one of those who left the faith in my late teens, spent 35 years living in sin and returned to the Church. Having done that, what do you think I believe…I believe that the Church is alive and vibrant. That it is smaller might be true. That it is dying…sorry but that is not possible. The Gates of hell will not prevail.
The Church exists and reaches out to those in need and whoa re ready to accept the good news.
Could our western societies be better? Certainly they could. But in a free, democratic, pluralistic society this must be done by winning hearts and minds and not by theocratic lawmaking.
Some societies might “look” religious but are they really?? What is simmering just below the outward signs of piety that are enforced by law that make it illegal to convert?

I do not know you background, whether you were born in America or moved here, but I can assure you that, for all the troubles that one can point to in “The West” and in Christianity in the west, the Church is not dying and indeed cannot be killed off.

Peace
James

Well said.

 

[Auzer]

I’m sure there are some “voluntary” arranged marriages, whatever the heck that would mean… but that surely doesn’t discount the fact that people are forced into arranged marriages all the time.

Well there are exceptions in every case. These “forced” marriages have nothing to do with “arranged marriages” …The very backward people where illiteracy is very high would “force” their son/daughter into the marriage. This phenomenon is dying FAST ! In the cities,towns and even villages —people with a high school education would NEVER allow their parents to “force” anyone into the marriage…Even parents would never do that to their child. Besides , there are MILLIONS of couples that did “love” marriage…So this still is a great system for us atleast. We atleast don’t have “cohabiting” couples …I am not condemning the West …I’m just trying to tell you that arrange marriage is NOT ,in any way, a “forced marriage” …not anymore…its 21st century. Also the fact that Muslim cultures are mainly “family-oriented” …it suits us. Like everything , arrange marriage has advantages and disadvantages…

Why do you have USA listed as your country? Just a temporary place of residence?

Nope. I live in US but I’m wasn’t born here . . .

So perhaps we have a mix up on terms? That sounds like courting.

No exactly. Majority of the “arrange” marriages today happen b/w girls and boys that already know and love each other (university mates etc) …Its just that their “families” meet and discuss to “arrange” their marriage… Children have to consult from their parents when deciding about making such an important decision of their life…Its a GREAT trend because parents know life way,way more than their children of young age. They mostly help their kids to make the right decision…remember …people marry in their 20s most of the time,atleast in the country I came from…

Sure. In the West, men and women are not forced (legally or culturally) to remain in loveless, unhappy marriages.

The ideal is to have a happy, loving marriage - not just a marriage.

I agree with you that divorce is a terrible thing! On the other hand, it’s not any worse than an abusive relationship.

LOL! not only in the West but all over the world…no one remains in an abusive relationship no more. You only have the image of those unfortunate people who aren’t very educated and are still stuck in extreme tribal culture (some parts of Afghanistan or tribal Pakistan) etc …but majority of people live in mainstream towns , cities , suburbs , villages etc etc …No girl would remain in an “unloving , abusing” marriage. Disputes happen in EVERY marriage but that doesn’t mean to end the marriage selfishly without even thinking about the future of your children–A phenomenon that can be observed in ‘some’ cultures while not that much in ‘others’ …You have to do compromises in married life. …

 

[Auzer]

Every week, in thousands upon thousands of churches throughout the western countries millions of people come together to hear the word, to pray to God, to praise Him and to seek the salvation of souls…One soul at a time. These same people go out to spread the gospel, to do works of mercy and to glorify God and build the kingdom.

No doubt…but I when you look at the “percentage” of the population attending church…this would show you the very unpleasant picture. Haven’t you read reports from the Europe?

bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

I was reading somewhere that if today’s trend continued … there would be MORE Mosque going Muslims in the England as compared with Church attending Christians…

(Muslims make only 3 % of the total population) …this should give you pretty clear picture… Here’s another report :

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-70894/Christianity-nearly-defeated-Britain.html

Again - I must say that “Culture”, especially in the United States can be a very tricky word. For the U.S. is not one culture but many. That is the benefit and the bane of our free society.

Ok

And yes - I have no doubt that that you have met people who do not know the Bible and do not believe the Bible. I have too. But does that mean that Christianity is ineffective or that you are talking to the wrong people…
Here you will find many, many people who know the Bible and Love it - Who Love God and seek to serve Him.

Agree…but the “general trend” in Western societies is non-religious. People do not care about religion at all. Many,many Christians don’t even read their bible and can’t even explain trinity. Most people are actually “non-Christians” but just with the name tag “Christianity” …I’m not saying that this is bad but West is an Atheistic society based on reason and logic…not a religious or Christianity society…

These are sad numbers but what do they reflect?

For me , these numbers reflect the decline of Christianity in the West and hence its ineffectiveness. Yes, Christianity is probably more effective in the States but in Europe…its really not. I don’t know if you have been to Europe or not but Europeans see America as “too religious” lols …In reality , Americans aren’t religious AT ALL ! Again …in general outlook.Thousands of Americans are very religious but when you look at USA as a whole…US is a secular,non-religious society.

Some societies might “look” religious but are they really?? What is simmering just below the outward signs of piety that are enforced by law that make it illegal to convert?

Exactly !!! The perfect example of this would be Saudi Arabia. I have been to Saudia Arabia and even to Mecca. I have not only “visited” KSA but I have lived there. They are the WORST thing that can happen to Islam People see Saudi Arabia as an ‘example’ of Muslim societies where as , as a Muslim , this notion OFFENDS me. Saudia is nothing more than a tribal society that is ruled by only ONE family …You’d see Saudis praying all the time. Mosques get full at every prayer…they would do their religious duties but what about educated? women right? equality? All these things are COMPULSORY in Islam and Saudis just ignore it. There is a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) saying that **attaining knowledge is a religious obligation on every Muslim man and woman **–where is this hadith in practical in Saudi society?

I do not know you background, whether you were born in America or moved here, but I can assure you that, for all the troubles that one can point to in “The West” and in Christianity in the west, the Church is not dying and indeed cannot be killed off.

Peace

I was born in Pakistan but moved here in the United States. I am still in touch with Pakistan because many of my friends , family and cousins etc still live there. And yes, Church won’t “die and finished” …

Peace.

 

[Auzer]

Not sure what the law is now but arranged marriages mean dowries. I understand the dowry is meant to go with and for the bride.

Dowry is a CURSE !!! It has NO place in Islam but people still follow their “culture” and give dowry e.g …Pakistanis follow this custom of giving ton of dowry–thanks to the influence of Indian culture they brought with themselves after partition.

Today, the good arranged marriages are those where the woman really has the right to make the ultimate decision.

Yes agree…read my post …I explained it -----> (Post # 15)

Are you referring to all Christians throughout the world or only in the West? What about the Christians in the country you are from?

Only in the West…Christians in Pakistan (country was born in ) are nothing like Christians in West. Well I guess Culture dominates religion. They are culturally Pakistanis. Pakistani Christians see West as a complete Atheistic society that does not follow the bible at all. Well again , religion is taken very seriously in that region …

 

[severus68]

[Q

UOTE=Auzer;8744739]Dowry is a CURSE !!! It has NO place in Islam but people still follow their “culture” and give dowry e.g …Pakistanis follow this custom of giving ton of dowry–thanks to the influence of Indian culture they brought with themselves after partition.

Well, it was one country with all Indians until the British arranged the Partition and the people suffered. Do not want to discuss the politics but the dowry system is still practised in the Indian sub continent although I believe Indian law prohibits it.

Yes agree…read my post …I explained it -----> (Post # 15)

You did. I had to make that point as I have heard of those ( not saying you) who say this but in reality do not practise it.

Only in the West…Christians in Pakistan (country was born in ) are nothing like Christians in West. Well I guess Culture dominates religion. They are culturally Pakistanis. Pakistani Christians see West as a complete Atheistic society that does not follow the bible at all. Well again , religion is taken very seriously in that region …

I do not think Christians in Pakistan would be concerned with the position of Christianity in the West. They have a lot to contend with.

I do not intend to insult but using an Islamic country as an example is not really valid. Is Sharia law imposed in Pakistan? If so then the outward practice of religion has to be taken very seriously in Pakistan.

Today in much of the world, people have the right to choose a religion or not to have one.
Muslims are tightly controlled in Muslim and Muslim majority countries. Indonesia may be the exception.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

A relationship, yes, sexual relationship, no. Reasons abound: secularization, the pill, loose morals, and selfish desires putting one’s needs over and above concern for the other’s morality and the other’s future, and lack of respect for God’s commandments. Blessings to you.
:heaven:

 

[severus68]

QUOTE]

No doubt…but I when you look at the “percentage” of the population attending church…this would show you the very unpleasant picture. Haven’t you read reports from the Europe?

I was reading somewhere that if today’s trend continued … there would be MORE Mosque going Muslims in the England as compared with Church attending Christians…

(Muslims make only 3 % of the total population) …this should give you pretty clear picture… Here’s another report :

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-70894/Christianity-nearly-defeated-Britain.html

Agree…but the “general trend” in Western societies is non-religious. People do not care about religion at all. Many,many Christians don’t even read their bible and can’t even explain trinity. Most people are actually “non-Christians” but just with the name tag “Christianity” …I’m not saying that this is bad but West is an Atheistic society based on reason and logic…not a religious or Christianity society…

For me , these numbers reflect the decline of Christianity in the West and hence its ineffectiveness. Yes, Christianity is probably more effective in the States but in Europe…its really not. I don’t know if you have been to Europe or not but Europeans see America as “too religious” lols …In reality , Americans aren’t religious AT ALL ! Again …in general outlook.Thousands of Americans are very religious but when you look at USA as a whole…US is a secular,non-religious society.

As far as the numbers are concerned, the West has allowed many Muslims in. In Norway for example, with the low population growth rate compared to that of the immigrant Muslims, yes the Muslims may well start to have control one day.

I will just say that Christianity is alive in the West although it has taken a bit of a beating and it continues to spread throughout the world.

Exactly !!! The perfect example of this would be Saudi Arabia. I have been to Saudia Arabia and even to Mecca. I have not only “visited” KSA but I have lived there. They are the WORST thing that can happen to Islam People see Saudi Arabia as an ‘example’ of Muslim societies where as , as a Muslim , this notion OFFENDS me. Saudia is nothing more than a tribal society that is ruled by only ONE family …You’d see Saudis praying all the time. Mosques get full at every prayer…they would do their religious duties but what about educated? women right? equality? All these things are COMPULSORY in Islam and Saudis just ignore it. There is a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) saying that **attaining knowledge is a religious obligation on every Muslim man and woman **–where is this hadith in practical in Saudi society?

I can’t disagree with that.

I was born in Pakistan but moved here in the United States. I am still in touch with Pakistan because many of my friends , family and cousins etc still live there. And yes, Church won’t “die and finished” …

Peace.