Is pre-marial relationship allowed in Christianity/Catholcism?

[Auzer]

[Q

You did. I had to make that point as I have heard of those ( not saying you) who say this but in reality do not practise it.

Yes ignorant people are found everywhere but things are changing pretty fast ! What you don’t realize is that the Muslim civilization is composed mostly of YOUNG vibrant people. Look what happened in Middle East? Young Egyptians, Tunisians , Libyans , Syrians etc etc just swept away their cruel tyrannies !!! What does it tell you? Young educated Muslims would NOT tolerate the retarded customs of their previous generations that has nothing to do with Islam. I myself is a witness of divorces that happened just because husband was acting ‘tough’ with wife. No one can now “force” a young educated global citizen living anywhere in the globe. Still we have a LONG way to go but things are changing positively.

I do not think Christians in Pakistan would be concerned with the position of Christianity in the West. They have a lot to contend with.

No they are not. I once asked an Indian Christian apologist/pastor about these things and according to him …West is NOT “christian” but anyways…I even know some “extremist” Pakistani Christians lol …As I said , people in that region takes religion pretty seriously.

I do not intend to insult but using an Islamic country as an example is not really valid. Is Sharia law imposed in Pakistan? If so then the outward practice of religion has to be taken very seriously in Pakistan.

Hehehe No there is NO “Sha’ria Law” imposed in Pakistan. We are currently ruled by the SECULAR governments…BUT…don’t worry…I ASSURE you that we , the youth of Pakistan , are all set to DEMOLISH our present so-called retarded government in upcoming elections,Inshallah! !! See what happened in Arab revolt? “Secular” governments were destroyed by youth of Arabia and Muslim parties just OVERWHELMED the elections…What many people don’t realize is that Muslims WANT Islam to play a central role in the society…NOT like Iran or Saudia…but like Turkey !!! Islam should play a very progressive , liberal role…by very nature Islam is like that… it assures equality and progress in the society. The sad part is that Westerners have been exposed to too much propaganda and they don’t really know a thing about Islam. There is NO “persecution” of minorities in Islam…Women have full rights and they BOUND to take education etc …Islam protects family system and COMMANDS its followers to thrive for better future (there is hadith about it ) …Islam is not just a religion like Hindusim of Christianity…its a complete way of life…We as Muslims know all this and hence want Islam to be influential in our society,unlike in the West and their perspective of Christianity.I want Pakistan to be a moderate , progressive , welfare Muslim state just like Sweden or Norway etc …Our so called “secular” governments are even worse than tyrants !!

Today in much of the world, people have the right to choose a religion or not to have one.
Muslims are tightly controlled in Muslim and Muslim majority countries. Indonesia may be the exception.

Well no sir. Muslims also have a “choice” to choose other religion or become Atheist but they generally don’t (MANY do and those who do openly tell their views…contrary to the popular belief.) … Indonesia is not the only one…Turkey,Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria , Morroco,UAE , Qatar , Pakistan (yes even Pakistan) , Brunei , etc etc are very open countries. One is a free soul here. In last decade, Pakistan got involved into WOT and hence extremism and problems increased (which is quite normal under such desperate times) but other than that…no one would “kill” you just because you aren’t Muslim. Unfortunate incidents happen all over the world…Haven’t you read that Copts killed their sister in Egypt for converting to Islam? You would get slaughter in Uganda (a practicing Christian nation) for being a gay…In Pakistan…you won’t !!! So extremism is on the rise due to the current situation . . . . Hope all things get cool down soon…
[/quote]

 

[Auzer]

A relationship, yes, sexual relationship, no. Reasons abound: secularization, the pill, loose morals, and selfish desires putting one’s needs over and above concern for the other’s morality and the other’s future, and lack of respect for God’s commandments. Blessings to you.
:heaven:

Sir who will define “sexual relationship” ? Are the “relationship” Western teens get involved in not “sexual”? Kissing is not "sexual’? Well again you can bring up “passionate Kiss” or not but this doesn’t change anything. Also , different cultures have different approaches to “sexual relationship” …In Eastern cultures mostly…if a girl and guy are in relationship and they do kissing,touching,hugging etc etc etc …This IS a sexual relationship …So is it Biblically right to engage in kissing,touching,hugging,romance etc etc BEFORE marriage?

 

[JRKH]

No doubt…but I when you look at the “percentage” of the population attending church…this would show you the very unpleasant picture. Haven’t you read reports from the Europe?

Well to tell the truth, I don’t pay much attention to such studies. For one thing my calling is not to the mission field (at least not at this time) and so there really is little I can do other than pray in support of mission efforts.
What these reports DO show is that those who do attend church are more likely to be Truly Christian and not simply “cultural Christians”.

Agree…but the “general trend” in Western societies is non-religious. People do not care about religion at all. Many,many Christians don’t even read their bible and can’t even explain trinity. Most people are actually “non-Christians” but just with the name tag “Christianity” …I’m not saying that this is bad but West is an Atheistic society based on reason and logic…not a religious or Christianity society…

Well - I am a “people” and I do care about religion, and there are thousands more like me. So the statement, “People do not care about religion” is not true. Some people do care and some people do not.

As for the West being “an Atheistic society” that is a pretty broad and undefined statement.

• First of all what defines “West”. Certainly from where I sit, Europe is East of me…
• Secondly in declaring the “West” is an atheistic society, it appears you are referring to at least 25 or 30 different countries involving very diverse cultures and governments from Europe, North America and South America and at least parts of the Western Pacific. You seem to be trying to fit a lot of diverse cultures into a single box.
• Third, I think that you are making a rather large and unwarranted jump from “non-religious” to Atheistic. Just because someone defines them selves as non-religious, or puts down “none” on some survey does not mean that they entirely reject God or that they do not believe in some higher power.
• Fourth, While I agree that most of the societies in the, so called, “West” are Secular, it does not follow that they are Atheist. One does not equal the other.

For me , these numbers reflect the decline of Christianity in the West and hence its ineffectiveness. Yes, Christianity is probably more effective in the States but in Europe…its really not. I don’t know if you have been to Europe or not but Europeans see America as “too religious” lols …In reality , Americans aren’t religious AT ALL ! Again …in general outlook.Thousands of Americans are very religious but when you look at USA as a whole…US is a secular,non-religious society.

The numbers may reflect the size of Christianity, but they cannot reflect it’s effectiveness. The Effectiveness of the faith does not depend on it’s size but rather in it’s ability to achieve it’s goals. The goal of Christianity is to try to get individuals to heaven. In that goal Christianity is very effective.
So please don’t confuse effectiveness with popularity.

(Cont)

 

[JRKH]

(Cont)

Exactly !!! The perfect example of this would be Saudi Arabia. I have been to Saudia Arabia and even to Mecca. I have not only “visited” KSA but I have lived there. They are the WORST thing that can happen to Islam People see Saudi Arabia as an ‘example’ of Muslim societies where as , as a Muslim , this notion OFFENDS me. Saudia is nothing more than a tribal society that is ruled by only ONE family …You’d see Saudis praying all the time. Mosques get full at every prayer…they would do their religious duties but what about educated? women right? equality? All these things are COMPULSORY in Islam and Saudis just ignore it. There is a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) saying that **attaining knowledge is a religious obligation on every Muslim man and woman **–where is this hadith in practical in Saudi society?

Yes Saudi Arabia is one example. What about others? States where it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity. Where failure to do ones “religious duties” are punishable crimes.
Such states can produce the appearance of great piety, but the true “effectiveness” of Islam in these states is masked. Islam may be just as ineffective in these states in regards to it’s goal of saving people for paradise - getting them to heaven…
How many in such states are, what we would call, “Cultural Muslims”, meaning that they active Muslims only because it is “expected” or “required” by law, but that there is no true Love for Allah in their hearts.
The truth is that this cannot be known unless the society is free - as it is in the “West”. Only then can the truth of the heart be openly revealed.

I was born in Pakistan but moved here in the United States. I am still in touch with Pakistan because many of my friends , family and cousins etc still live there. And yes, Church won’t “die and finished” …

Welcome to the U.S. I hope you will find a good home here.

Please don’t think that I am underestimating the problems facing Christians in our secular society. I know that good devout Muslims also face challenges here - especially since 9/11.
The War against evil, the work to save souls, is always a difficult battle. For even though we hold the moral high ground, the enemies armies and weapons are powerful.

The reason that I am taking your post to task, is not out of any disrespect for you, but rather to point out that blanket statements cannot reflect real truth. Blanket statements are often used by those who wish to paint some perceived enemy with a single color. What is sometimes called “painting with a broad brush”.
And as far as reports and studies and surveys are concerned…They can reflect as much or more about the agenda of those taking the survey as they do about the respondents.

I appreciate your patient and charitable dialogue on these matters, and hope that I have given you some helpful feedback.

Peace
James

 

[severus68]

QUOTE=Auzer;8745172]Yes ignorant people are found everywhere but things are changing pretty fast ! What you don’t realize is that the Muslim civilization is composed mostly of YOUNG vibrant people. Look what happened in Middle East? Young Egyptians, Tunisians , Libyans , Syrians etc etc just swept away their cruel tyrannies !!! What does it tell you? Young educated Muslims would NOT tolerate the retarded customs of their previous generations that has nothing to do with Islam. I myself is a witness of divorces that happened just because husband was acting ‘tough’ with wife. No one can now “force” a young educated global citizen living anywhere in the globe. Still we have a LONG way to go but things are changing positively.

It is great that a Muslim says Islam is not oppressive, is progressive and gives equal rights to women.

No they are not. I once asked an Indian Christian apologist/pastor about these things and according to him …West is NOT “christian” but anyways…I even know some “extremist” Pakistani Christians lol …As I said , people in that region takes religion pretty seriously.

I am not sure what one Christian pastor was supposed to have said about the West really means anything. Extremist Pakistani Christians? I gather that just being Christian in certain parts of Pakistan is difficult and can be perilous and I wonder what extreme things these Christians do.

Hehehe No there is NO “Sha’ria Law” imposed in Pakistan. We are currently ruled by the SECULAR governments…BUT…don’t worry…I ASSURE you that we , the youth of Pakistan , are all set to DEMOLISH our present so-called retarded government in upcoming elections,Inshallah! !! See what happened in Arab revolt? “Secular” governments were destroyed by youth of Arabia and Muslim parties just OVERWHELMED the elections…What many people don’t realize is that Muslims WANT Islam to play a central role in the society…NOT like Iran or Saudia…but like Turkey !!! Islam should play a very progressive , liberal role…by very nature Islam is like that… it assures equality and progress in the society. The sad part is that Westerners have been exposed to too much propaganda and they don’t really know a thing about Islam. There is NO “persecution” of minorities in Islam…Women have full rights and they BOUND to take education etc …Islam protects family system and COMMANDS its followers to thrive for better future (there is hadith about it ) …Islam is not just a religion like Hindusim of Christianity…its a complete way of life…We as Muslims know all this and hence want Islam to be influential in our society,unlike in the West and their perspective of Christianity.I want Pakistan to be a moderate , progressive , welfare Muslim state just like Sweden or Norway etc …Our so called “secular” governments are even worse than tyrants !!

What about the northwestern region?

While there are moderate Muslims, they appear to lose their voice in the face of a few extremists.

That is not true. Christianity is our whole life, we just do not think it right or Christian to imposeChristianity on others. We believe in free will and choice.

Well no sir. Muslims also have a “choice” to choose other religion or become Atheist but they generally don’t (MANY do and those who do openly tell their views…contrary to the popular belief.) … Indonesia is not the only one…Turkey,Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria , Morroco,UAE , Qatar , Pakistan (yes even Pakistan) , Brunei , etc etc are very open countries. One is a free soul here. In last decade, Pakistan got involved into WOT and hence extremism and problems increased (which is quite normal under such desperate times) but other than that…no one would “kill” you just because you aren’t Muslim. Unfortunate incidents happen all over the world…Haven’t you read that Copts killed their sister in Egypt for converting to Islam? You would get slaughter in Uganda (a practicing Christian nation) for being a gay…In Pakistan…you won’t !!! So extremism is on the rise due to the current situation . . . . Hope all things get cool down soon…

So there are no penalties for converting out of Islam in Pakistan or any of the countries you mentioned when in Islam apostasy is punishable with death?

I could quote incidents about the actions of Muslims in Pakistan and elsewhere but this would just take this thread further off track.

 

[severus68]

Sir who will define “sexual relationship” ? Are the “relationship” Western teens get involved in not “sexual”? Kissing is not "sexual’? Well again you can bring up “passionate Kiss” or not but this doesn’t change anything. Also , different cultures have different approaches to “sexual relationship” …In Eastern cultures mostly…if a girl and guy are in relationship and they do kissing,touching,hugging etc etc etc …This IS a sexual relationship …So is it Biblically right to engage in kissing,touching,hugging,romance etc etc BEFORE marriage?

If you mean ‘pre- marital relations’ as in sex, then the answer would be in the negative. Getting to know a person before marrying is recommmended to enable people to make the right decisions about marriage. The showing of affection is not wrong. Passionate kissing etc is discouraged.

No, hugging and kissing are not sexual acts and kissing and hugging is not carrying on a sexual relationship whether in the West, East, North or South. Where in the East are you referring to? If it is Pakistan, then the restrictions on o kissing and hugging are Islamic .

 

[Auzer]

(Cont)

Yes Saudi Arabia is one example. What about others? States where it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity. Where failure to do ones “religious duties” are punishable crimes.

Well what others? Iran probably but I’m not sure…I guess its ONLY Saudi where if you don’t pray , they’ll fine you lol…Other than that , such laws are NO WHERE in the whole Muslim world. Remember , more than 85 % of Muslims are non-Arabs. Countries like Pakistan,Albania,Malaysia,Indonesia,Morrocco,Egypt,Tunisia,Algeria,Kazakhstan,UAE,
Jordan,Qatar,Niger etc etc etc are all Muslim. NO ONE “force” you to pray or no one would “punish” you to follow your religion etc …Islam is the largest “practiced” faith on the planet…Muslims,for many reasons,are way,way more practicing than the followers of other religions etc…

This is a very recent report of CNN about this …have a read

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/03/conflict-theology-and-history-make-muslims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/

Having lived and traveled many countries (both Muslims and Non Muslims) …I can say that Muslims ARE generally more practicing …Heck! even American Muslims are more practicing than I expected them to be

Such states can produce the appearance of great piety, but the true “effectiveness” of Islam in these states is masked.

Well not really…I’ve tried to explain it above.

How many in such states are, what we would call, “Cultural Muslims”, meaning that they active Muslims only because it is “expected” or “required” by law, but that there is no true Love for Allah in their hearts.

Again wrong. NO COUNTRY other than KSA (or Iran but not sure) “requires” Muslims to be practicing followers. There is a HUGE difference b/w "cultural (Western) Christians " and “Cultural Muslims” …The LEAST practicing cultural Muslim would go to Mosque atleast once a week , would fast 30 days of Ramadan , would want to go to Hajj/Umrah and would definitely give Zakkat (if he earns enough) and also would read whole Qur’an atleast once in his life time and memorize atleast five Surahs of Qur’an to recite in prayer (Salah)…THIS is a “cultural Muslim” …“Cultural Muslims” are practicing followers by Western Standards lol…I’m myself is kinda “Cultural Muslim” …I don’t pray 5 times a day every day etc etc

Welcome to the U.S. I hope you will find a good home here.

Thanks

Please don’t think that I am underestimating the problems facing Christians in our secular society. I know that good devout Muslims also face challenges here - especially since 9/11.

Yup the amount of false propaganda in media against Islam has increased 10X after 9/11 …People have all kind of stereotypes of Muslims like "women are oppressed lol " , "we allowed to lie (I was SHOCKED when I first hear this) " , "we are terrorist " , “we want to ‘take over’ America and impose Sharia law” , " Muslims marry only their cousins (the most ridiculous one I came across ) " etc etc etc etc etc …But in all this mess , many positive things are also happening…There is an astonishing revival of Islam all around the globe…People who never even went to Mosque have now become full-fledged practicing Muslims etc …

I appreciate your patient and charitable dialogue on these matters, and hope that I have given you some helpful feedback.

 

[Auzer]

It is great that a Muslim says Islam is not oppressive, is progressive and gives equal rights to women.

lol I know its hard for you because you have been exposed to too much propaganda against Islam from either lying hypocrite Missionaries or dishonest money-hungry people like Walid Shoebat or Robert Spencer etc …Every fourth person on the planet is a Muslim and Muslim civilization is arguable the most diverse civilization present out there …I mean Turks,Arabs,Persians,Egyptians,Aryans (Indo-Pak) , Afghans , Central Asians, East Asians,Chinese , Russians and even more than 50 million Europeans follow Islam. Do you really think that all these different cultures and people from around the globe would accept a religion that degrades their women? It is humanly impossible. Also , in the Europe …thousands of people are converting to Islam and most of them are “women” …and that too…mostly…college educated women…Are they fool? The report says that they convert after a period of studying Islam for 3-4 years … In some cases, women have MORE rights then men Like if my wife wants …she can just sit and do NOTHING like a queen and I HAVE TO arrange her a servant and have to maintain all her expenses and CAN NOT “force” her to do household work etc …If I do …I’d me going against Islam and committing sin lol…But in most cases , wives don’t do that …Thank God I don’t know of ANY religion that gives such rights to the women…Islam gave women right of inheritance in 7th CENTURY !!! West gave this right CENTURIES later etc …So women in Islam are given more rights than in any other religion BUT you have to “differentiate” b/w ‘Cultures’ and ‘religion’ …In an tribal culture, women are denied rights but this has NOTHING to do with “Islam” …

What about the northwestern region?

Well NorthWestern region is a warzone…can’t say anything about it because it will be wrong to give any opinion about a region that is fighting such a desperate war. But yeah they are considered more “conservative” …

While there are moderate Muslims, they appear to lose their voice in the face of a few extremists.

Again wrong. Well Western media doesn’t tell you anything so I won’t blame you but do you know that their are HUNDREDS of “Fatwas” against terrorists and terrorism by Muslim scholars? Terrorists are told that they are doing UN-ISLAMIC things and would be punished in afterlife…But Western Media only show you the “Muslim” terrorists (as if religion matters…We don’t say “Christian” Nazis , despite the fact that they were Christians and hitler used Christianity as a propaganda tool to achieve its evil purposes, just like Osama did with Islam

So there are no penalties for converting out of Islam in Pakistan or any of the countries you mentioned when in Islam apostasy is punishable with death?

Apostasy is probably THE MOST mis-understood issue even among Muslims…If I live Islam today, I SHOULD NOT BE KILLED according to Islam. Qur’an says NOTHING about apostasy. If in an Islamic theocratic state (A state based on Islamic ideology) becomes apostate and start preaching against Islam then technically the guy is going against the very ideology his state is based upon.and this is by definition an act of treason.its like a communist preaching democracy in Soviet Union etc …So religion has nothing to so with it but politics…Also this was the case in middle ages…In 1833 (?) , the Caliph of OTTOMAN EMPIRE demolished this punishment and said that from now on , an apostate would not be killed …For a CLEAR stance…read this …

loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/

 

[Luvz2travel]

Is relationship before marriage allowed in Christianity? As far as I know,in 16th century…Christian societies were segregated.Women and men could barely even talk until they were married.This was the society of West in 16th/17th century and it was all due to religion because at that time Christianity had still some role in the society…but now West has changed UPSIDE DOWN ! Having a relationship,kissing,touching etc before marriage is NORMAL and is,surprisingly,also not considered “unbiblical”…So how this revolution occurred? Is it due to the fact that West left Christianity and adapted secularism? Christianity died in the West and is now pretty much an ineffective religion. Isn’t this culture bad for family life? Also , is having a Girlfriend/Boyfriend before marriage allowed in Christianity/bible? Kissing,touching and all that?

What are your views on it?

It all depends on the culture. The culture of the Romans and Greeks was fairly open as long as you worshiped the perscribed Gods. They accepted homosexuality, extramarital affairs and other things as a matter of course.(except maybe in the case of their wives or daughters). They didn’t like Christians and Jews because of their beliefs and one god and strict morals. Most ancient cultures couldn’t relate to it till Islam came around and then again it was mostly the women who where restricted while the men kind of when off to plunder or behave however they wished. If you read enough history you see that generally speaking the same stuff kept going on only some made a show of being more moral then others. The wealthy partied and lived as they wanted and the poor were generally a little more reserved since there main goal was survival. Marriages among most classes were arranged. More so among the wealthy. A girl was kept chaperoned until married and once married once the necessary heir appeared it wasn’t all the uncommon for her to have affairs like her husband depending on how high up she was except for Queens of course weren’t allowed any hint of scandal. What really happened to change things was birth control the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s. After that pretty much anything went. So now the pressure is the do whatever want and it you do live a moral life you’re considered an odd ball. Thomas Moore once said “Given enough time people accept anything”

 

[LoyalChristian]

I might not be fully aware of what is going on in other countries, but I am fully aware of what is going on in Canada. Auzra I can see right through you’re posts.

 

[severus68]

I might not be fully aware of what is going on in other countries, but I am fully aware of what is going on in Canada. Auzra I can see right through you’re posts.

Yes,

 

[severus68]

lol I know its hard for you because you have been exposed to too much propaganda against Islam from either lying hypocrite Missionaries or dishonest money-hungry people like Walid Shoebat or Robert Spencer etc …Every fourth person on the planet is a Muslim and Muslim civilization is arguable the most diverse civilization present out there …I mean Turks,Arabs,Persians,Egyptians,Aryans (Indo-Pak) , Afghans , Central Asians, East Asians,Chinese , Russians and even more than 50 million Europeans follow Islam. Do you really think that all these different cultures and people from around the globe would accept a religion that degrades their women? It is humanly impossible. Also , in the Europe …thousands of people are converting to Islam and most of them are “women” …and that too…mostly…college educated women…Are they fool? The report says that they convert after a period of studying Islam for 3-4 years … In some cases, women have MORE rights then men Like if my wife wants …she can just sit and do NOTHING like a queen and I HAVE TO arrange her a servant and have to maintain all her expenses and CAN NOT “force” her to do household work etc …If I do …I’d me going against Islam and committing sin lol…But in most cases , wives don’t do that …Thank God I don’t know of ANY religion that gives such rights to the women…Islam gave women right of inheritance in 7th CENTURY !!! West gave this right CENTURIES later etc …So women in Islam are given more rights than in any other religion BUT you have to “differentiate” b/w ‘Cultures’ and ‘religion’ …In an tribal culture, women are denied rights but this has NOTHING to do with “Islam” …

Well NorthWestern region is a warzone…can’t say anything about it because it will be wrong to give any opinion about a region that is fighting such a desperate war. But yeah they are considered more “conservative” …

Again wrong. Well Western media doesn’t tell you anything so I won’t blame you but do you know that their are HUNDREDS of “Fatwas” against terrorists and terrorism by Muslim scholars? Terrorists are told that they are doing UN-ISLAMIC things and would be punished in afterlife…But Western Media only show you the “Muslim” terrorists (as if religion matters…We don’t say “Christian” Nazis , despite the fact that they were Christians and hitler used Christianity as a propaganda tool to achieve its evil purposes, just like Osama did with Islam

Apostasy is probably THE MOST mis-understood issue even among Muslims…If I live Islam today, I SHOULD NOT BE KILLED according to Islam. Qur’an says NOTHING about apostasy. If in an Islamic theocratic state (A state based on Islamic ideology) becomes apostate and start preaching against Islam then technically the guy is going against the very ideology his state is based upon.and this is by definition an act of treason.its like a communist preaching democracy in Soviet Union etc …So religion has nothing to so with it but politics…Also this was the case in middle ages…In 1833 (?) , the Caliph of OTTOMAN EMPIRE demolished this punishment and said that from now on , an apostate would not be killed …For a CLEAR stance…read this …

loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/

I have tried to be respectful in responding to your posts. You started a thread and people have tried to respond to you re that thread. Everyone is welcome to CAF, we even have self professed atheists here provided the forum rules are adhered too. While I have no issue with you sharing about your religion Islam, you cannot ‘share’ while putting down other religions especially Christianity. This is the Catholic Answers Forum. People here are for the most charitable in their responses and have been so in responding to you.

I have actually studied Islamic law under an internationally renowned Islamic jurist so I am not ignorant of Islamic law. I have read the English translation of the Quran. I have always believed that knowledge takes away a lot of fear. I have Muslim friends who are moderate in their practice of Islam. I do have some idea of what happens in Islamic countries and Muslim majority countries. I am not a bigot and hate prejudice in any form. It is great if people of different races and religion can live together in peace and harmony. I am against a State religion whether it be Islam or Christianity. It never works. The most fanatical, the most unscrupulous always take power whatever the original pure intentions. Many Iranians would disagree with you about Islamic Iran. The cure to what happened under the Shah was not a cure.

On the topic of your thread, Christians like every human, are not perfect, we do not say we are. We sin in sexual matters too. The majority of us are against extremism in any form. The showing of affection between courting and dating couples is not a sin. There may be some misguided extremist Christians who agree with your views on men and women.

BTW, to make it clear, while some Christians like me are aginst a State religion, our religion is very much of our whole lives. We try to live our lives according to Christ’s teachings. We do not always make public announcements about it.

 

[Wandile]

I think it is a bit incorrect to conclude from the provided statistics that the stats indicate the ‘ineffectiveness’ of christianity. The fact is despite the evidence of the stats, christianity still receives the biggest number of converts annually (Roughly 26 million).

I just think that christians are mistaken as being ‘inactive’ in their faith because of their humility. Many christians ,including me, do not flash their beliefs to everyone but rather practice in private. I only tell someone about my religion if they ask about it. The bible teaches humility in faith and practice so I guess this is mistaken as being ‘inactive’ or non-practicing, but in actuality many are practicing Christians .

I will admit that there are many ‘cultural’ christians who do believe in God but don’t ever go to church or practice their faith. I was once like this until God reached out to me and called me.

 

[Auzer]

While I have no issue with you sharing about your religion Islam, you cannot ‘share’ while putting down other religions especially Christianity.

Where did I do that?

I think it is a bit incorrect to conclude from the provided statistics that the stats indicate the ‘ineffectiveness’ of christianity. The fact is despite the evidence of the stats, christianity still receives the biggest number of converts annually (Roughly 26 million).

Any credible neutral sources for this?

 

[twoangels]

My husband and I support the idea of arranged marriages though we do not think it would work in the United States. We value individualism too much for it and have great freedom about building our own family traditions and coming up with roles that fit the specific couple. Arranged marriages in cultures that are less individualistic can have fairly happy marriages. Everyone knows what is required of them in the marriage and they’ve been trained for the vocation since they were children. We reinvent the wheel every time, but often don’t know we are. We still learn a lot about what to expect from marriage from the families we were raised in, but families in the US can differ a lot and can be pretty dysfunctional. As such, we have to ensure that when we are discerning marriage with someone that we really talk about what we want in a marriage. I think the success and love a couple shares for each other in marriage is primarily the effect of loving each other well in marriage. As pointed out in the book “The love dare” we are called to lead our hearts, not to follow our hearts. Usually we take this advise once we’re in a marriage, but in our culture we still rely a lot on Eros (erotic/romantic love).

I don’t think its wrong to fall in love prior to marriage. I think if you find your heart is attracted and excited by someone, your heart should be listened to, but it shouldn’t be the guiding first. It shouldn’t be like being dragged around on a leesh by an untrained puppy who chases after each smell. That dog has to be trained and has to heel. It may even be able to become a pretty good seeing eye dog, but that still takes training. Its important to remember always that your heart has no brain but your own brain. To throw out reason and be led solely by your heart is a foolish thing to do.

Since we do not live in a culture with arranged marriages, I see the purpose of courtship/dating as a process of looking before you leap. Your heart wants to be given to someone and you keep it back and get to know the person a bit before you give them your heart. The dating relationship ought to primarily be a very close friendship with an aim of discerning marriage. The line between dating and marriage should not be blurred.

Anyway, I’ve recommended the book before, but I think “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar” is a really good book on the subject of courtship and marrying.

 

[severus68]

QUOTE=Auzer;8748539]Where did I do that?

Some of what you posted:-

“Islam is not just a religion like Hindusim of Christianity…its a complete way of life.”

“Lol I know its hard for you because you have been exposed to too much propaganda against Islam from either lying hypocrite Missionaries or…”

"There is a HUGE difference b/w “cultural (Western) Christians " and “Cultural Muslims” …The LEAST practicing cultural Muslim would go to Mosque atleast once a week , would fast 30 days of Ramadan , would want to go to Hajj/Umrah and would definitely …”

There are others.

 

[Wandile]

Any credible neutral sources for this?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

BTW I made a mistake. I wrongfully confused New Adherents with converts. Here are the correct figures :

Christianity receives 2.5 million converts annually (still the highest amount in the world). Christianity receives roughly. 26 million new adherents per year (also the highest).

Sorry about my mistake.

Question : how did you manage to quote two people ate once???

 

[Auzer]

Some of what you posted:-

“Islam is not just a religion like Hindusim of Christianity…its a complete way of life.”

“Lol I know its hard for you because you have been exposed to too much propaganda against Islam from either lying hypocrite Missionaries or…”

"There is a HUGE difference b/w “cultural (Western) Christians " and “Cultural Muslims” …The LEAST practicing cultural Muslim would go to Mosque atleast once a week , would fast 30 days of Ramadan , would want to go to Hajj/Umrah and would definitely …”

There are others.

ALL of my statements are true and I didn’t mean to “put down Christianity” …Islam is a complete way of life and Christianity isn’t in a way that Islam guides/commands its followers in the matters like politics , economy , warfare etc etc …From a secular point of view : Islam is not just an religion… Haven’t you read about the so called very infamous “political Islam” ? or about “Islamic banking” …Such things directly comes from Islam…I apologize if I offended anyone but I just wrote what secular scholars say. (Throughout my post I’m avoiding the use of Islamic scholars to remain neutral…I guess it backfired )

And yes there IS a huge difference b/w “Cultural Muslim” and a “Westerner” ‘cultural Christian’ …Ok let put it this way to make things more clear … A “cultural Christian” of Uganda or Kenya would be way more ‘practicing’ than the ‘cultural Christian’ of England per say…

And I consider people like Walid Shoebat or Kamal Saleem etc as “lying hypocrite missionaries” …Am I wrong? CNN proved Shoebat to be a fraud and Kamal was caught lying on TELEVISION–He says that 25% of Iran converted to Christianity in ONE year…Do you believe it? …

So again I didn’t put down Christianity…We have our retards too…e.g …Anjem Chaudry…So please don’t take it on heart.

 

[Auzer]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

BTW I made a mistake. I wrongfully confused New Adherents with converts. Here are the correct figures :

Christianity receives 2.5 million converts annually (still the highest amount in the world). Christianity receives roughly. 26 million new adherents per year (also the highest).

Believe you me…I was SURE that you will give me this link of John GilChrist’s site…“Myth of fastest growing Islam” …Well , John make it appear as if it is Muslims who propagated that “myth” , where as in reality…it is the demographic organizations , PEW forums , CNN , Fox , BBC , Hilary Clinton and neutral religious organizations who ALL say that Islam is the fastest growing religion…The article you provided is refuted here

answering-christianity.com/yahya_ahmed/islam_fasting_growing_religion_world.htm

Thats why I wrote to provide me "credible neutral " links … **Christian Encyclopedia ** is not neutral nor very credible

If Christianity gets the most number of new adherents , why Islam is called the fastest growing major religion? Anyways … even from YOUR source …I can easily prove that Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion of the world,Mashallah. The chart “Brother Andrew” provides say that there are 1.9 billion Christians and 1.2 billion Muslims…I don’t know when it was written (in 2001 probably) …But now come here…in 2011…There are **2.1 to 2.2 billion ** **Christians **and 1.6 to 1.8 billion Muslims …You can do the math I’m sure… In last decade …which religion got more “number of new adherents overall” … Even if you take the "high end " of Christian population estimate and “low end” of Muslim population estimate----even then Islam got ~ **100 million ** more new adherents as compared to Christianity,Mashallah. (NOTE : Adherents are NOT converts)

Question : how did you manage to quote two people ate once??

Thats a big secret

I open two replies/posts in different tabs and cut-paste the relevant part of two posters into one reply Hope you got it lol …

 

[Wandile]

Believe you me…I was SURE that you will give me this link of John GilChrist’s site…“Myth of fastest growing Islam” …Well , John make it appear as if it is Muslims who propagated that “myth” , where as in reality…it is the demographic organizations , PEW forums , CNN , Fox , BBC , Hilary Clinton and neutral religious organizations who ALL say that Islam is the fastest growing religion…The article you provided is refuted here

answering-christianity.com/yahya_ahmed/islam_fasting_growing_religion_world.htm

I knew you were going to reference Osama Abdallah’s website. Really? I have already read that article. Anyway here is a refutation to the site’s article which discredits the sources used to ‘prove’ Islam as the Fastest growing religion :

islamoscope.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/islam-not-the-fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world-and-other-myths-of-islam/

Thats why I wrote to provide me "credible neutral " links … Christian Encyclopedia is not neutral nor very credible

If Christianity gets the most number of new adherents , why Islam is called the fastest growing major religion? Anyways … even from YOUR source …I can easily prove that Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion of the world,Mashallah. The chart “Brother Andrew” provides say that there are 1.9 billion Christians and 1.2 billion Muslims…I don’t know when it was written (in 2001 probably) …But now come here…in 2011…There are **2.1 to 2.2 billion ** **Christians **and 1.6 to 1.8 billion Muslims …You can do the math I’m sure… In last decade …which religion got more “number of new adherents overall” … Even if you take the "high end " of Christian population estimate and “low end” of Muslim population estimate----even then Islam got ~ **100 million ** more new adherents as compared to Christianity,Mashallah. (NOTE : Adherents are NOT converts)

Your statistics are overly ambitious. It begs the question of the credibility of your sources. Islam’s most ambitious figure ever reported by a credible source is 1.5 billion (adherents.com). Only a few questionable sources record up to 1,8 billion adherents. The year 2000 statistics revealed Islam
to have 1.5 billion and Christianity 2.1 billion. Anyways statistics are always expected to vary as they are only estimates so I would rather leave this alone.

Here are credible secular sources for you to prove my case :

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/02/islam_is_the_fastest_growing_religion_not.html

fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html
This site references many secular sources instead of one source. It is very useful

wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion
This site critically dissects Islam’s growth in all continents of the world to show how Islam in truth (although growing very fast) is not the fastest growing religion.

Thats a big secret

I open two replies/posts in different tabs and cut-paste the relevant part of two posters into one reply Hope you got it lol …

Thanks for that