Is pre-marial relationship allowed in Christianity/Catholcism?

[crazzeto]

Courtship is certainly encouraged, however as always it must be chaste courtship. So that means you have to watch what kind of touching and kissing you are doing. I didn’t have this kind of courtship, ever actually. But looking back I wish I had done things this way. I guess with out experience it’s hard to say, but to me it seems likely that it would build a deeper personaly emotional connection between the courting couple without the fog of sex in the way.

 

[JRKH]

ALL of my statements are true and I didn’t mean to “put down Christianity”

I can see that the statements you made were out of ignorance and not malice, but at the same time I can see where real, true, honest Christians might find the statements as a “put down”.

…Islam is a complete way of life and Christianity isn’t in a way that Islam guides/commands its followers in the matters like politics , economy , warfare etc etc

What makes you believe that Christianity does not provide similar command/guidance? Have you read the Bible NT, Gospels and letters? Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Have you read the various other documents of the Church such as Humane Vitae etc?
If you do, I think that you will find that Christianity IS a complete way of life.

…From a secular point of view : Islam is not just an religion… Haven’t you read about the so called very infamous “political Islam” ? or about “Islamic banking” …Such things directly comes from Islam…

Christianity is attacked from the secular world too. Haven’t you ever heard of the “Religious right”? How about “the Bible belt” which is a political term for an area of the country where politicians traditionally have to tailor their rhetoric to more Christian values.

I apologize if I offended anyone but I just wrote what secular scholars say. (Throughout my post I’m avoiding the use of Islamic scholars to remain neutral…I guess it backfired )

My suggestion would be to quit going by what secular scholars say. I’m sure that you already know how Islam is misrepresented in the secular world. Even by some scholars in the secular world. So - instead of reading what secular scholars say about Christianity, why not read what Christians say about Christianity.

And yes there IS a huge difference b/w “Cultural Muslim” and a “Westerner” ‘cultural Christian’ …Ok let put it this way to make things more clear … A “cultural Christian” of Uganda or Kenya would be way more ‘practicing’ than the ‘cultural Christian’ of England per say…

So you say…But the thing about “cultural” in either faith or region, and no matter how one conforms to the “laws” or “duties” of a given faith and whether that is because of how they were raised, or some political need or expectation, the fact remains the same that a “cultural” person of faith has not embraced that faith in their heart. Have not incorporated it into their being…They might do all that is required on the outside but be - as Christ called the pharisees, “whitewashed tombs”, all clean and white on the outside and on the inside full of dead bones.
What I am saying is that none of us can see into the hearts of others. Especially the hearts of all of the millions that make up entire societies.

And I consider people like Walid Shoebat or Kamal Saleem etc as “lying hypocrite missionaries” …Am I wrong? CNN proved Shoebat to be a fraud and Kamal was caught lying on TELEVISION–He says that 25% of Iran converted to Christianity in ONE year…Do you believe it? …

So again I didn’t put down Christianity.…We have our retards too…e.g …Anjem Chaudry…So please don’t take it on heart.

I know nothing of the people you refer to above, but in so far as putting down Christianity goes…I’m afraid that you have been. I recognize that this was not your intent and that your statements were coming from an ill informed view of Christianity.
Several people have tried to point out to you that your statements use too broad a brush, that you try to lump millions of people together in sweeping statements yet you seem to want to continue to do it.
With all do respect I see you doing the very thing that would upset you terribly if you read it about Islam.
I know that you have heard or read things equating Islam and terrorism. Islam and Radical governments. And earlier you commented about how tolerant Islam is of other faiths etc…Yet Somebody blew up a Christian Church - again - this past Christmas…Should we draw sweeping conclusions about ALL Muslims from these acts??

All we ask is that you recognize that, by making such broad and all inclusive statements as you have been, you are being just as insulting to Christians as those who make broad sweeping and negative comments about Islam.

Please think carefully about this. Please…

Peace
James

 

[severus68]

I can see that the statements you made were out of ignorance and not malice, but at the same time I can see where real, true, honest Christians might find the statements as a “put down”.

What makes you believe that Christianity does not provide similar command/guidance? Have you read the Bible NT, Gospels and letters? Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Have you read the various other documents of the Church such as Humane Vitae etc?
If you do, I think that you will find that Christianity IS a complete way of life.

Christianity is attacked from the secular world too. Haven’t you ever heard of the “Religious right”? How about “the Bible belt” which is a political term for an area of the country where politicians traditionally have to tailor their rhetoric to more Christian values.

My suggestion would be to quit going by what secular scholars say. I’m sure that you already know how Islam is misrepresented in the secular world. Even by some scholars in the secular world. So - instead of reading what secular scholars say about Christianity, why not read what Christians say about Christianity.

So you say…But the thing about “cultural” in either faith or region, and no matter how one conforms to the “laws” or “duties” of a given faith and whether that is because of how they were raised, or some political need or expectation, the fact remains the same that a “cultural” person of faith has not embraced that faith in their heart. Have not incorporated it into their being…They might do all that is required on the outside but be - as Christ called the pharisees, “whitewashed tombs”, all clean and white on the outside and on the inside full of dead bones.
What I am saying is that none of us can see into the hearts of others. Especially the hearts of all of the millions that make up entire societies.

I know nothing of the people you refer to above, but in so far as putting down Christianity goes…I’m afraid that you have been. I recognize that this was not your intent and that your statements were coming from an ill informed view of Christianity.
Several people have tried to point out to you that your statements use too broad a brush, that you try to lump millions of people together in sweeping statements yet you seem to want to continue to do it.
With all do respect I see you doing the very thing that would upset you terribly if you read it about Islam.
I know that you have heard or read things equating Islam and terrorism. Islam and Radical governments. And earlier you commented about how tolerant Islam is of other faiths etc…Yet Somebody blew up a Christian Church - again - this past Christmas…Should we draw sweeping conclusions about ALL Muslims from these acts??

All we ask is that you recognize that, by making such broad and all inclusive statements as you have been, you are being just as insulting to Christians as those who make broad sweeping and negative comments about Islam.

Please think carefully about this. Please…

Peace
James

Very well said.

 

[severus68]

ALL of my statements are true and I didn’t mean to “put down Christianity” …Islam is a complete way of life and Christianity isn’t in a way that Islam guides/commands its followers in the matters like politics , economy , warfare etc etc …From a secular point of view : Islam is not just an religion… Haven’t you read about the so called very infamous “political Islam” ? or about “Islamic banking” …Such things directly comes from Islam…I apologize if I offended anyone but I just wrote what secular scholars say. (Throughout my post I’m avoiding the use of Islamic scholars to remain neutral…I guess it backfired )

I will accept that you are trying to be sincere and do not intend to offend. However, your statements about Christians can be taken as offensive. A Christian should follow the teachings of Christ in all aspects of life. Yes, I do know about Islamic banking for instance. Personally, my view is that the theory works so much better than the practice today.

And yes there IS a huge difference b/w “Cultural Muslim” and a “Westerner” ‘cultural Christian’ …Ok let put it this way to make things more clear … A “cultural Christian” of Uganda or Kenya would be way more ‘practicing’ than the ‘cultural Christian’ of England per say…

I really do not know much about the first two you mention other than that they are Christian converts from Islam. Regarding Anjem Chaudry and the like, the irony is that he lives in a country which gives him freedoms including freedom of speech, which freedoms would not be given in the Islamic state he would want.

 

[Auzer]

I knew you were going to reference Osama Abdallah’s website. Really? I have already read that article. Anyway here is a refutation to the site’s article which discredits the sources used to ‘prove’ Islam as the Fastest growing religion :

islamoscope.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/islam-not-the-fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world-and-other-myths-of-islam/

LOL! Thanks for giving me a “blog” which gives NO primary neutral sources. I can understand that you are a new player in this field but you debate (remember debate.org )… Blogs are NEVER “sources” …nor random “Youtube” videos…Blogs are considered as “sources” ONLY when they state primary source of their information. Like I post a blog and state my source of data as “US state department” etc etc …Your sources takes me back to another bloggish type website …Fastest growing religion whatever…That website AGAIN quotes "Christian encyclopedia for Christian population growth–which in inherently a flawed approach. You have ONLY “one” source that says that Christianity grows faster and that source is “Christian encylopedia”… All your websites are christian missionary websites which copy the info from same source…Sorry buddy but you can’t bluff this cookie

Your statistics are overly ambitious. It begs the question of the credibility of your sources. Islam’s most ambitious figure ever reported by a credible source is 1.5 billion (adherents.com). Only a few questionable sources record up to 1,8 billion adherents. The year 2000 statistics revealed Islam
to have 1.5 billion and Christianity 2.1 billion. Anyways statistics are always expected to vary as they are only estimates so I would rather leave this alone.

Not at all …Adherents.com (if you didn’t know) is NOT “upgraded” since some years now…Secondly my source of 1.6 billion Muslims comes from PEW forums…A full fledged American based demographic organization that conducted very recent survey from all around the world. Probably you don’t know but ask Americans here…PEW is a VERY credible , authentic demographic organization where professors of demographics work…

pewresearch.org/pubs/1872/muslim-population-projections-worldwide-fast-growth

This is their report ,formulated by team of demographers and professional professors of this field , released on 27th Januaury 2011 …

Thats why I told you to find some “credible” , “secular” and “neutral” source …Instead you found “Christian” , “biased” and “unauthentic” sources …way to go buddy

Here are credible secular sources for you to prove my case :

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/02/islam_is_the_fastest_growing_religion_not.html

fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html
This site references many secular sources instead of one source. It is very useful

wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion
This site critically dissects Islam’s growth in all continents of the world to show how Islam in truth (although growing very fast) is not the fastest growing religion.

Planconstant , wikiIslam and a blog as “secular neutral sources” ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

FACEPALM



These are mostly anti-Islamic biased sites or Christian sites (only adherent.com is an exceptin)…Also as I said …your fastest growing religion sites uses Christian encylopedia for their info on Christianty growth…again fail…my friend…

**Fact remains : Islam IS the fastest growing major world religion,Mashallah **

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Sir who will define “sexual relationship” ? Are the “relationship” Western teens get involved in not “sexual”? Kissing is not "sexual’? Well again you can bring up “passionate Kiss” or not but this doesn’t change anything. Also , different cultures have different approaches to “sexual relationship” …In Eastern cultures mostly…if a girl and guy are in relationship and they do kissing,touching,hugging etc etc etc …This IS a sexual relationship …So is it Biblically right to engage in kissing,touching,hugging,romance etc etc BEFORE marriage?

Hello and may God bless you greatly in your faith journey.
I’m sure that the OP (original poster) was speaking of sexual intercourse, which is why I said “relationship, yes, sexual relationship, no.”

A relationship can be a pure and chaste friendship. Two friends who simply know each other as friends have a relationship.

Kissing is not sexual intercourse, but can lead to it, which is why in times past, this behavior was discouraged by parents of young teens. Today it would be hard to find teens who do not kiss or hug, and of course, that can lead to the sex act.

I totally agree that these actions lead to temptations, and are “sexual” in* nature.* while not being the act of sexual intercourse.

Your question “So is it Biblically right to engage in kissing, touching, hugging, romance, etc before marriage,” is a valid point, but may not be addressed specifically in the Bible, in the same way the the sex act is addressed. That said, the Bible says that to look on a woman with lust in the heart is the same thing as committing the act.

Here is where I believe the gift of purity of mind comes in. We strive to be “perfect” but often fail. If a young teenager goes to confession and says “I have sinned in my heart and had impure thoughts about a girl I know,” he may well have a very different penance given him than a young man who confesses having sexual intercourse with a girl friend.

Though each have sinned by having impure thoughts, one has gone further, and a pregnancy may also result. God understands our human-ness, and draws us nearer to him. He doesn’t ask us to be pure in order to make us unfeeling automatons, but to help us act in pure ways towards all whom we meet. Christ loves the sinner and the saint, and I’m sure it would be best if all persons could treat each other with respect and purity. I happen to be quite old fashioned in this respect and completely agree with you that these “prequels” to passion are very difficult to manage, and that society has fallen away from the intent of God’s teaching, which is to respect each person, to aspire to real purity of heart in our dealings with everyone we meet, to love all as Christ loves us. I pray that there might be a renewal of this respect of persons. Young people long for guidelines that I am sad to see are crumbling away in modern society. Innocence has been lost, and we may not have it back again. There is a wonderful book called “A Return to Modesty” written by a young college girl who was shocked at the rampant sexual antics of her co-ed friends. I highly recommend the book to everyone, as it is a refreshing look at a small group of young people who are looking for alternatives to the wildness we find in today’s sexual revolution.

Many blessings,
Kathryn Ann

 

[Wandile]

LOL! Thanks for giving me a “blog” which gives NO primary neutral sources. I can understand that you are a new player in this field but you debate (remember debate.org )… Blogs are NEVER “sources” …nor random “Youtube” videos…Blogs are considered as “sources” ONLY when they state primary source of their information. Like I post a blog and state my source of data as “US state department” etc etc …Your sources takes me back to another bloggish type website …Fastest growing religion whatever…That website AGAIN quotes "Christian encyclopedia for Christian population growth–which in inherently a flawed approach. You have ONLY “one” source that says that Christianity grows faster and that source is “Christian encylopedia”… All your websites are christian missionary websites which copy the info from same source…Sorry buddy but you can’t bluff this cookie

Cute ending to your post.

Lol well then according to what you stated, this blog should be considered credible as it does not Only use the World Christian Encyclopedia as it’s source of evidence lol… NO NO NO… It uses fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html which is 90% secular(it sites the WCD which in your logic diminishes the secularity of the source) , but it is purely neutral and is not funded by any religious institution nor does it propagate any religion but rather presents hard facts that clearly have you upset. It’s okay buddy

Not at all …Adherents.com (if you didn’t know) is NOT “upgraded” since some years now…Secondly my source of 1.6 billion Muslims comes from PEW forums…A full fledged American based demographic organization that conducted very recent survey from all around the world. Probably you don’t know but ask Americans here…PEW is a VERY credible , authentic demographic organization where professors of demographics work…

It is really funny to see that your Pew Forums article never once states that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It only accounts for its rapid growth (which I do not deny) but never states that Islam is the fastest growing.

Lol that is why I presented wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion as it not only makes reference to Pew froums , but also the World Christian Encyclopedia(which is in reality VERY credible), the CIA world Fact book, the American Identification Survey, adherents.com and the ARIS. I’ll exclude the WCD from the list and yet you are left with 5 extremely credible and neutral sources that disprove Islam as the fastest growing religion in all respects.

Further more Adherents.com gets its statistics solely from Census statistics of various countries. So it is credible as it does not propagate any religion nor does it site a biased source, but rather uses a purely neutral statistic database.

I’m sorry if my information in anyway hurts you, but the truth is that what I’m telling you is INDISPUTABLE FACT
, and only an ignorant bigot would be foolish enough to deny the evidence presented.

FACEPALM

http://media.photobucket.com/image/jesus facepalm/Hynad/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-.jpg?o=10

These are mostly anti-Islamic biased sites or Christian sites (only adherent.com is an exceptin)…Also as I said …your fastest growing religion sites uses Christian encylopedia for their info on Christianty growth…again fail…my friend…

.

These sites aren’t Anti-Islam, rather they are sites that are against blatant lies told about Islam.

Again I say that is why I presented wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion as it not only makes reference to Pew forums , but also the World Christian Encyclopedia(which is in reality VERY credible), the CIA world Fact book,the American Identification Survey, adherents.com and the ARIS. I’ll exclude the WCD from the list and yet you are left with 5 extremely credible and neutral sources that disprove Islam as the fastest growing religion in all respects.

**Fact remains : Islam IS the fastest growing major world religion,Mashallah **

Keep dreaming buddy. Its ok… Its ok

I’m done with you. Your attempts to refute facts are really pathetic. This topic is indisputable. You can reply but I’m done with this.

 

[Auzer]

Cute ending to your post.

Lol well then according to what you stated, this blog should be considered credible as it does not Only use the World Christian Encyclopedia as it’s source of evidence lol… NO NO NO… It uses fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html which is 90% secular(it sites the WCD which in your logic diminishes the secularity of the source) , but it is purely neutral and is not funded by any religious institution nor does it propagate any religion but rather presents hard facts that clearly have you upset. It’s okay buddy

It is really funny to see that your Pew Forums article never once states that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It only accounts for its rapid growth (which I do not deny) but never states that Islam is the fastest growing.

Lol that is why I presented wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion as it not only makes reference to Pew froums , but also the World Christian Encyclopedia(which is in reality VERY credible), the CIA world Fact book, the American Identification Survey, adherents.com and the ARIS. I’ll exclude the WCD from the list and yet you are left with 5 extremely credible and neutral sources that disprove Islam as the fastest growing religion in all respects.

Further more Adherents.com gets its statistics solely from Census statistics of various countries. So it is credible as it does not propagate any religion nor does it site a biased source, but rather uses a purely neutral statistic database.

I’m sorry if my information in anyway hurts you, but the truth is that what I’m telling you is INDISPUTABLE FACT
, and only an ignorant bigot would be foolish enough to deny the evidence presented.

.

These sites aren’t Anti-Islam, rather they are sites that are against blatant lies told about Islam.

Again I say that is why I presented wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion as it not only makes reference to Pew forums , but also the World Christian Encyclopedia(which is in reality VERY credible), the CIA world Fact book,the American Identification Survey, adherents.com and the ARIS. I’ll exclude the WCD from the list and yet you are left with 5 extremely credible and neutral sources that disprove Islam as the fastest growing religion in all respects.

.

LOL! All your rhetoric is so useless…Here is a SIMPLE Math for you buddy …Sorry if it hurts … Lets take Christian encyclopedia and PEW forums as sources (BOTH of them are agreeable by you,right? ) …

So here it comes :

Christian encyclopedia States (2001 table 1.1)

There are 1.9 billion Christians and 1.2 billion Muslims --2001

10 years after :

Pew Forums report :

There are 2.18 billion Christians and 1.63 billion Muslims …

NOW DO THE MATH BEFORE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF

In last ten years … Christianity got little less than 300 million new adherents over all …

Islam got ** a bit over than 400 million **new adherents over all

** Which religion got MORE adherents and grew faster? **

Its really not surprising that you are making this non-issue as the matter of your “ego” … In 1900s…Christianity made 35% of total world population and Islam made 11-13% of the world population…

Today : Christianity makes about 31%-32% of world population and Islam makes about 23% to 25% of the world population AND “increasing” while Christianity is “Stable” overall,Mashallah. … Whats up buddy?

Keep dreaming buddy. Its ok… Its ok

I’m done with you. Your attempts to refute facts are really pathetic. This topic is indisputable. You can reply but I’m done with this

Yup ANYONE can see “who” is dreaming and who is not… There are NO “facts” buddy…You can see…I easily presented the simple Math arithmetic and it comes out as the following : Islam is , undoubtedly , the fastest growing major religion…

PS. I just presented the growth trends of last 10 years…If I post overall growth trends of last 20 years …things become even MORE clearer that which religion is the fastest growing major religion , Mashallah…By the way , have a look at this buddy…this the report from 2011 …by a neutral, famous and secular British newspapaer …

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-islamification-of-britain-record-numbers-embrace-muslim-faith-2175178.html

Hope this post would wake you up to the reality , my friend.

 

[Auzer]

Hello and may God bless you greatly in your faith journey.
I’m sure that the OP (original poster) was speaking of sexual intercourse, which is why I said “relationship, yes, sexual relationship, no.”

A relationship can be a pure and chaste friendship. Two friends who simply know each other as friends have a relationship.

Kissing is not sexual intercourse, but can lead to it, which is why in times past, this behavior was discouraged by parents of young teens. Today it would be hard to find teens who do not kiss or hug, and of course, that can lead to the sex act.

I totally agree that these actions lead to temptations, and are “sexual” in* nature.* while not being the act of sexual intercourse.

Your question “So is it Biblically right to engage in kissing, touching, hugging, romance, etc before marriage,” is a valid point, but may not be addressed specifically in the Bible, in the same way the the sex act is addressed. That said, the Bible says that to look on a woman with lust in the heart is the same thing as committing the act.

Here is where I believe the gift of purity of mind comes in. We strive to be “perfect” but often fail. If a young teenager goes to confession and says “I have sinned in my heart and had impure thoughts about a girl I know,” he may well have a very different penance given him than a young man who confesses having sexual intercourse with a girl friend.

Though each have sinned by having impure thoughts, one has gone further, and a pregnancy may also result. God understands our human-ness, and draws us nearer to him. He doesn’t ask us to be pure in order to make us unfeeling automatons, but to help us act in pure ways towards all whom we meet. Christ loves the sinner and the saint, and I’m sure it would be best if all persons could treat each other with respect and purity. I happen to be quite old fashioned in this respect and completely agree with you that these “prequels” to passion are very difficult to manage, and that society has fallen away from the intent of God’s teaching, which is to respect each person, to aspire to real purity of heart in our dealings with everyone we meet, to love all as Christ loves us. I pray that there might be a renewal of this respect of persons. Young people long for guidelines that I am sad to see are crumbling away in modern society. Innocence has been lost, and we may not have it back again. There is a wonderful book called “A Return to Modesty” written by a young college girl who was shocked at the rampant sexual antics of her co-ed friends. I highly recommend the book to everyone, as it is a refreshing look at a small group of young people who are looking for alternatives to the wildness we find in today’s sexual revolution.

Many blessings,
Kathryn Ann

Thank you for the post . . .

 

[severus68]

LOL! All your rhetoric is so useless…Here is a SIMPLE Math for you buddy …Sorry if it hurts … Lets take Christian encyclopedia and PEW forums as sources (BOTH of them are agreeable by you,right? ) …

So here it comes :

Christian encyclopedia States (2001 table 1.1)

There are 1.9 billion Christians and 1.2 billion Muslims --2001

10 years after :

Pew Forums report :

There are 2.18 billion Christians and 1.63 billion Muslims …

NOW DO THE MATH BEFORE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF

In last ten years … Christianity got little less than 300 million new adherents over all …

Islam got ** a bit over than 400 million **new adherents over all

** Which religion got MORE adherents and grew faster? **

Its really not surprising that you are making this non-issue as the matter of your “ego” … In 1900s…Christianity made 35% of total world population and Islam made 11-13% of the world population…

Today : Christianity makes about 31%-32% of world population and Islam makes about 23% to 25% of the world population AND “increasing” while Christianity is “Stable” overall,Mashallah. … Whats up buddy?

Yup ANYONE can see “who” is dreaming and who is not… There are NO “facts” buddy…You can see…I easily presented the simple Math arithmetic and it comes out as the following : Islam is , undoubtedly , the fastest growing major religion…

PS. I just presented the growth trends of last 10 years…If I post overall growth trends of last 20 years …things become even MORE clearer that which religion is the fastest growing major religion , Mashallah…By the way , have a look at this buddy…this the report from 2011 …by a neutral, famous and secular British newspapaer …

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-islamification-of-britain-record-numbers-embrace-muslim-faith-2175178.html

Hope this post would wake you up to the reality , my friend.

May I understand why it is important for you to post on CAF about growth stats on Islam at all?

 

[Wandile]

LOL! All your rhetoric is so useless…Here is a SIMPLE Math for you buddy …Sorry if it hurts … Lets take Christian encyclopedia and PEW forums as sources (BOTH of them are agreeable by you,right? ) …

So here it comes :

Christian encyclopedia States (2001 table 1.1)

There are 1.9 billion Christians and 1.2 billion Muslims --2001

10 years after :

Pew Forums report :

There are 2.18 billion Christians and 1.63 billion Muslims …

NOW DO THE MATH BEFORE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF

In last ten years … Christianity got little less than 300 million new adherents over all …

Islam got ** a bit over than 400 million **new adherents over all

** Which religion got MORE adherents and grew faster? **

Its really not surprising that you are making this non-issue as the matter of your “ego” … In 1900s…Christianity made 35% of total world population and Islam made 11-13% of the world population…

Today : Christianity makes about 31%-32% of world population and Islam makes about 23% to 25% of the world population AND “increasing” while Christianity is “Stable” overall,Mashallah. … Whats up buddy?

Yup ANYONE can see “who” is dreaming and who is not… There are NO “facts” buddy…You can see…I easily presented the simple Math arithmetic and it comes out as the following : Islam is , undoubtedly , the fastest growing major religion…

PS. I just presented the growth trends of last 10 years…If I post overall growth trends of last 20 years …things become even MORE clearer that which religion is the fastest growing major religion , Mashallah…By the way , have a look at this buddy…this the report from 2011 …by a neutral, famous and secular British newspapaer …

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-islamification-of-britain-record-numbers-embrace-muslim-faith-2175178.html

Hope this post would wake you up to the reality , my friend.

I was not supposed to reply but I can’t stand idiocy. You think your math proved anything? Lol

I’m not stupid enough to fall for your tricks. You used information of 2 DIFFERENT sources and did math from them. you cannot do that because two studies do not reflect the same results. I can guarantee that the WCD would reflect a different statistical picture in 2011 (which it has not published) to that of Pew forums. Any way let me just put the stats on the table to keep you quiet because I’m getting tired of this :

1- ** Fastest growing in terms of percentage per year** : Zoroastrianism (2.65%)

2- Fastest growing in terms of conversions per year : Christianity (2.5million)

3- Fastest growing per year New adherents in general per year : Christianity (25.2 million)

PROJECTED GROWTH AND SIZES OF MAJOR RELIGIONS :

1 - Growth of Christianity in the period 2000-2050
:
New Adherents - 1,052 000, 504
Size - 3,051,564,342

2- Growth of Islam in the period 2000-2050 :

New adherents - 1,041,038,821
Size - 2,229,281,610

Sources : Britanica encyclopedia, CIA Fact book and WCD
… (All sources information can be found here : fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html and en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion)

All who are observing this can make your own conclusions.

 

[Auzer]

I was not supposed to reply but I can’t stand idiocy. You think your math proved anything? Lol

I’m not stupid enough to fall for your tricks. You used information of 2 DIFFERENT sources and did math from them. you cannot do that because two studies do not reflect the same results. I can guarantee that the WCD would reflect a different statistical picture in 2011 (which it has not published) to that of Pew forums. Any way let me just put the stats on the table to keep you quiet because I’m getting tired of this :

hahhahahaa what a desperate little youngman you are …I proved you again and again but alas…you’re so childish to accept and keep bringing up IRRELEVANT things to this thread…But since I can reply…so I would

Follow this :

Your WCD is NOT and CAN NOT be considered as a “secular” , “neutral” source !!! Yes…it might be very authentic BUT it CAN’T be considered “neutral” … Have I presented any Muslim site to you? You’re hell bent on presenting **CHRISTIAN encyclopedia ** …Give me just three reasons to believe a “CHRISTIAN” organization would not be biased ? Its a HUMAN thing…EVERYONE of us has its own biases…therefore I relied on NEUTRAL , SECULAR and ESTABLISHED sources…As I said , stop embarrassing yourself again and again…

1- ** Fastest growing in terms of percentage per year** : Zoroastrianism (2.65%)

Yup …I know…read ALL my posts…I always said : Islam is the fastest growing major religion…What does it tell you? Major religion?..the smaller religion gets…its percentage growth becomes higher because even if few people convert…the small value of already present adherents cause the percentage to go up…For goodness sake…stop bringing up these points…

2- Fastest growing in terms of conversions per year : Christianity (2.5million)

hahaha …who says so? Christian encyclopedia? LOL ! I presented you one report of secular , neutral and credible newspaper from England about 100,000 Britishers converting to Islam…Can you post any such credible source? Any credible secular newspaper report from Muslim world? Like we have DAWN News in Pakistan etc … According to Fox News (extremely rightist pro Christian newschannel) …70,000 Iraqis converted to Christianity since gulf war-I …So in 20 or so years…Christianity got 70,000 new converts…the SAME Fox News (and other credible news sources ) reported that 30,000 Americans convert to Islam EVERY year…Again…Islam outclasses Christianity here by a long shot ! Do the math…But yeah…keep living in your dreams and believing ANONYMOUS websites on the net…

3- Fastest growing per year New adherents in general per year : Christianity (25.2 million)

Here is what I call desperato brain fart…Your Christian encyclopedia reports,in 2001, that Christianity gains millions of more new adherents overall…YET…after 10 years …One of THE MOST credible , neutral and secular demographic organization puts forward a report…after extensive study by EXPERTS of the field…when we look at the report… it comes down to as …Islam gain more than 100 Million new adherents than Christianity in last ten year…but yeah I forgot…PEW forums is not credible and some Christian encyclopedia is very credible…LOL!

PROJECTED GROWTH AND SIZES OF MAJOR RELIGIONS :

2- Growth of Islam in the period 2000-2050 :

New adherents - 1,041,038,821
Size - 2,229,281,610

hahaha …WOW ! So PEW Forum says that there would be 2.2 billion Muslim in year 2030 and mind it …this is the LATEST report by EXPERTS of the field (do you even know ANYTHING about PEW organization ? ) but yeah your Christian encyclopedia said something else in a report that was released a decade ago ! and YOU believe that report and not the *latest *report by the EXPERTS of the field? Never mind …I can understand your position bro… I can feel you

I can guarantee that the WCD would reflect a different statistical picture in 2011

hahaha Oh my God !!! So you think that your WCD would say that there are 2.5 billion Christians or so? and we , the rational people, would believe it? LOL …

I don’t think that your WCD would raise the number…EVERYONE knows that there are 2 to 2.2 billion Christians in the world and not more…

Also when the latest study of your “CHRISTIAN” encyclopedia comes then talk…why are you talking to me right now because right now…ALL the “credible” sources are in my favor (latest reports)… Remember…PEW forum IS a demographic organization where experts , scholars and faculty professors of demographics work…

By the way , I’m just taking “nominal” accounts…I haven’t even started on “practicing followers” yet ! You realize that Islam is the LARGEST practiced faith on the planet, don’t you? Read this latest report from CNN though

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/03/conflict-theology-and-history-make-muslims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/

But I know you would say that no no its not the case blah blah…but I’m dead sure that you somewhere down your heart yourself know the reality that there are more practicing Muslims than there are practicing Christians…anyways …

 

[severus68]

[Q[QUOT

E]UOTE=Auzer;8756782]hahhahahaa what a desperate little youngman you are …I proved you again and again but alas…you’re so childish to accept and keep bringing up IRRELEVANT things to this thread…But since I can reply…so I would

Follow this :

Your WCD is NOT and CAN NOT be considered as a “secular” , “neutral” source !!! Yes…it might be very authentic BUT it CAN’T be considered “neutral” … Have I presented any Muslim site to you? You’re hell bent on presenting **CHRISTIAN encyclopedia ** …Give me just three reasons to believe a “CHRISTIAN” organization would not be biased ? Its a HUMAN thing…EVERYONE of us has its own biases…therefore I relied on NEUTRAL , SECULAR and ESTABLISHED sources…As I said , stop embarrassing yourself again and again…

Yup …I know…read ALL my posts…I always said : Islam is the fastest growing major religion…What does it tell you? Major religion?..the smaller religion gets…its percentage growth becomes higher because even if few people convert…the small value of already present adherents cause the percentage to go up…For goodness sake…stop bringing up these points…

hahaha …who says so? Christian encyclopedia? LOL ! I presented you one report of secular , neutral and credible newspaper from England about 100,000 Britishers converting to Islam…Can you post any such credible source? Any credible secular newspaper report from Muslim world? Like we have DAWN News in Pakistan etc … According to Fox News (extremely rightist pro Christian newschannel) …70,000 Iraqis converted to Christianity since gulf war-I …So in 20 or so years…Christianity got 70,000 new converts…the SAME Fox News (and other credible news sources ) reported that 30,000 Americans convert to Islam EVERY year…Again…Islam outclasses Christianity here by a long shot ! Do the math…But yeah…keep living in your dreams and believing ANONYMOUS websites on the net…

Here is what I call desperato brain fart…Your Christian encyclopedia reports,in 2001, that Christianity gains millions of more new adherents overall…YET…after 10 years …One of THE MOST credible , neutral and secular demographic organization puts forward a report…after extensive study by EXPERTS of the field…when we look at the report… it comes down to as …Islam gain more than 100 Million new adherents than Christianity in last ten year…but yeah I forgot…PEW forums is not credible and some Christian encyclopedia is very credible…LOL!

PROJECTED GROWTH AND SIZES OF MAJOR RELIGIONS :

2- Growth of Islam in the period 2000-2050 :

New adherents - 1,041,038,821
Size - 2,229,281,610

hahaha …WOW ! So PEW Forum says that there would be 2.2 billion Muslim in year 2030 and mind it …this is the LATEST report by EXPERTS of the field (do you even know ANYTHING about PEW organization ? ) but yeah your Christian encyclopedia said something else in a report that was released a decade ago ! and YOU believe that report and not the *latest *report by the EXPERTS of the field? Never mind …I can understand your position bro… I can feel you

hahaha Oh my God !!! So you think that your WCD would say that there are 2.5 billion Christians or so? and we , the rational people, would believe it? LOL …

I don’t think that your WCD would raise the number…EVERYONE knows that there are 2 to 2.2 billion Christians in the world and not more…

Also when the latest study of your “CHRISTIAN” encyclopedia comes then talk…why are you talking to me right now because right now…ALL the “credible” sources are in my favor (latest reports)… Remember…PEW forum IS a demographic organization where experts , scholars and faculty professors of demographics work…

By the way , I’m just taking “nominal” accounts…I haven’t even started on “practicing followers” yet ! You realize that Islam is the LARGEST practiced faith on the planet, don’t you? Read this latest report from CNN though

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/03/conflict-theology-and-history-make-muslims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/

But I know you would say that no no its not the case blah blah…but I’m dead sure that you somewhere down your heart yourself know the reality that there are more practicing Muslims than there are practicing Christians…anyways … :thumbsup:

I think Wandile should not have gone into this with you. We do not need to prove ourselves to you.

You come in here saying you do not mean to offend. etc. Your words I have bolded above really shows what you are about. Let me make something very clear, it is not about numbers. It is about accepting and practising a faith out of free will.You have said Muslims can freely practice whatever religion throughout the Muslim world with the exception of Saudi Arabia. We both know that it not true.

You talk about the West being secular, being atheist. Tell me which Muslim or Muslim majority state will let Christians in and allow Christians to freely practise their religion. A few Muslims in Europe, either immigrants or children of descendents are trying to impose their religious rules on others. Trying to police the dress of women in parts of London? Ridiculous! Look at your own backyard before commenting on and putting down others please.

BTW., I am sure Christianity will more than survive and will thrive.

 

[Auzer]

I think Wandile should not have gone into this with you. We do not need to prove ourselves to you.You come in here saying you do not mean to offend. etc. Your words I have bolded above really shows what you are about.

Wandile started posting anti-Islam propaganda hate sites and called my posts “idiocy” etc…I guess I should’ve avoided him but I got carried away and responded him in likely manner…

You have said Muslims can freely practice whatever religion throughout the Muslim world with the exception of Saudi Arabia. We both know that it not true.

Saudia and probably Iran too…Other than that…yes pretty much. I am not saying that Muslims have as much freedoms as in the West…definitely not but perception of some people that "Islam is imposed on Muslims and many Muslims want to leave it but can’t " etc is absolutely fiction. Believe me , If I want to leave…I CAN leave Islam but no one would kill me (Yes , many Muslims in the Muslim world probably would face isolation from their familes or friends etc …)

Tell me which Muslim or Muslim majority state will let Christians in and allow Christians to freely practise their religion.

Almost ALL of them. Even under Saddam’s Hussein…Christians were protected and given right…this is NOT me saying but Christian leaders…Also in Iran—Christians can freely practice their faith…In my country Pakistan…there were Churches all over Pakistan in every corner etc …Again things are definitely not as good as for the minorites in the West but you have to realize the difference too. Muslim world is mostly under-developed or developing countries passing through their post-colonial era. We can’t be as good as West…which is the most accomplished civilization in today’s world.

A few Muslims in Europe, either immigrants or children of descendents are trying to impose their religious rules on others. Trying to police the dress of women in parts of London? Ridiculous!

Absolutely ridiculous ! These idiots DO NOT represent Muslims…Even Muslims spit on idiots like Anjem Chaudry etc …The problem is that these lunatics get too much media attention…These guys with handful of followers are regarded as “Muslim leaders” in the media.Media sell their news like hot cakes but in return…a false impression of general Muslim population is given to the audience…ANYONE who want to “impose” Caliphate in any Western country SHOULD go back to his native country.Period.

 

[severus68]

Wandile started posting anti-Islam propaganda hate sites and called my posts “idiocy” etc…I guess I should’ve avoided him but I got carried away and responded him in likely manner…

Saudia and probably Iran too…Other than that…yes pretty much. I am not saying that Muslims have as much freedoms as in the West…definitely not but perception of some people that "Islam is imposed on Muslims and many Muslims want to leave it but can’t " etc is absolutely fiction. Believe me , If I want to leave…I CAN leave Islam but no one would kill me (Yes , many Muslims in the Muslim world probably would face isolation from their familes or friends etc …)

Almost ALL of them. Even under Saddam’s Hussein…Christians were protected and given right…this is NOT me saying but Christian leaders…Also in Iran—Christians can freely practice their faith…In my country Pakistan…there were Churches all over Pakistan in every corner etc …Again things are definitely not as good as for the minorites in the West but you have to realize the difference too. Muslim world is mostly under-developed or developing countries passing through their post-colonial era. We can’t be as good as West…which is the most accomplished civilization in today’s world.

Absolutely ridiculous ! These idiots DO NOT represent Muslims…Even Muslims spit on idiots like Anjem Chaudry etc …The problem is that these lunatics get too much media attention…These guys with handful of followers are regarded as “Muslim leaders” in the media.Media sell their news like hot cakes but in return…a false impression of general Muslim population is given to the audience…ANYONE who want to “impose” Caliphate in any Western country SHOULD go back to his native country.Period.

Let us all then keep to the topic of this thread.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Well what role does Christianity play in the society? Do people even care about Bible or Christianity? Does today’s culture according to Christianity? Many of people I know never even read the Bible. I know some “Christians” who say that bible has some very stupid things and that its not the word of God entirely. West is a secular society. Many people are leaving the religion all to gather. Just last week , I was reading the report that in English , Christianity decreased ~10% within just 5 years (from 78% in 2005 to 70% in 2011) …Scandinavian countries have LITERALLY become Atheist. In a survey , 85% of the respondents responded as “no religion” …In Russia , Christianity dropped from over 70% to less than even 50% now … Even the “Christians” in the West are mostly non-Christians that never read bible , never care about Christianity in their life , engage in pre-marial sex , drugs ,drinking excessively and converting to other religion just for fun (these traits are found specially in the Youth) …OR just see the popular youth culture…their music? Does these facts , in any way , tells you that Christianity is STILL alive in the West and not dying? Less in the South many practicing Christians are there but mostly from older generations…Overall , as an “outsider” , when I look at West—there is no or very less ‘religion/Christianity’ I see.

These secular liberal culture emerged after industrial revolution affected Europeans to a great extend. They became lazy in religious life. Now this culture is started affecting muslims also. Most muslims are not that much religious like previous generation. They became lazy in their religion. Now how many muslims pray five times a day?. How many muslims wear head caps daily (which is strict as per islamic law)…?. Most of the muslim youths are consuming alcohols which is stirctly prohibitted as per islam.Why?. Most of the muslims and arabs in Gulf countires have sexual relations outside marriage., I know very well. Cities like Dubai , Doha are mini copies of western cities…(both in appearance and life style).

Hinduism also started affecting by these modern secular culture…That society is also in the path of westernization. Metro cities in india are now a mini copy of western societies…Buddhism is also affected by these culture…In japan youth are lazy in their religion…

In Asia, is in starting stage only … after two or three generations, their situation will also become same like Christianity in the west. These immoral culture was first developed in western world after industrial revolution and also due to the rise of secularism and communism.

So remember , this can be happen to any religion at any time… In my opinion no religion is free from this athiest secular culture…

 

[jerry_joseph]

I am sure Christianity will more than survive and will thrive.

Growth of islam through high birth rates is at declining stage…Now its growth rate is reduced…Ovde It is higher than the world growth rate …Almost all Arab countries , pakistan, bangladesh, indonesia, malaysia and northern africa have low birth rates…Sharp decline of more than 50% in muslim fertlity rate all over the world , comparing to what existed in the world before two decades… It will become equal to other religions within few decades. Almost all young generation of muslims are educated and among them we can see rise of monogamy and decent family culture…Most of them have two or three kids. They are now concerned about quality in life and education of their kids.

tkcollier.wordpress.com/2009/05/09/muslim-birthrates-falling-worldwide/

Also I didn’t think that europe’s muslim population will increase further… Because now due to the decline in the european economy, immigration is reduced…Also the second generation of immigrant communities in europe also now have low fertilty rates compared to their first generation.
prb.org/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx

By taking all these factors , and changed situations , we cannot tell that there will be a high increase in muslim population.

Christianity is a growing religion (1.3% per year). It is growing higher than the world population growth (1.1% per year). But less than world muslim population growth rate (1.6% ). But muslim population growth rate before two decades was 3% . More than double of christian population growth rate (1.5%) at that time. Now margin is decreased to 0.3%. Within couple of decades christian population growth rate and muslim population growth rate will become equal.Christian growth rate is higher in Africa (3%) compared to 2.3 % of average total population growth of africa . In Asia, population growth rate is 1% per year , while christian population growth is 2.6% per year in asia. More than two times the asian population growth. There are 330 million christians in asia now . Christians will outnumber buddhists in asia within couple of decades and will become thrid biggest religion in asia.

Growth of christianity in asia and africa is mainly not due to high birth rate, but due to high religious conversions.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Muslims are now only less than 6% of Russian population… Very big decline comparing to what they are before two decades. . About 2 million russian muslims converted to orthodox chirstianity last decade

interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=513

In 2000 , only 54% of russians identified as christians. But in 2011 70% of russians identified as christians. 6% as muslims, 1% belongs to other religions and rest are athiest.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Also the heading of this thread " Is pre-marial relationship allowed in Christianity /Catholcism?" is a clear example of ignorance and wrong assumptions about christianity exsisting among many non Christians, especially in Asia …

We all know that secularists and athiests in the west always blames christianity, especially Roman catholicism for not allowing liberty in the issues like premarital sex, divorce, abortion , euthanasia, living together, immoral dressings etc.They always spreads the idea that christianity is against human liberty and it is an outdated religion.

But in the East pointing out the immoralities existing in western communities, leaders of other religons spreads the idea among their followers that christianity is an immoral religion and are always liberal in the maters of social morality. The person (Auzer ) who started this thread is also a victim of such false teaching. He have wrong assumptions about christianity.

So it is our duty to show the reality of what is happening in the west to the followers of other religions.

 

[trailrunner1208]

Is kissing a girls neck a sin? Nothing else happened besides that so is it a sin?