Is predestination biblical?

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I was talking to a Protestant friend, and I discovered that she believes in predestination; that it is predetermined, before birth, whether one will enter the Kingdom of God or hell. Her denomination is sola scriptora, meaning the Bible is the only authority, so where in the bible is predestination supported?

I do not believe this myself, as I cannot grasp what the point in doing good on Earth is if its already set whether you will go to heaven or hell. If you are already going to heaven, then why bother going to church, being friendly, following Christ’s teachings? It almost seems like it allows people to be lazy and still be able to comfortably know they have just as good of a chance to get to heaven as if they were a humble, selfless individual. Sloth, or laziness, is one of the 7 deadly sins. What keeps a Christian from sinning if doing good does not get you closer to heaven??

God is loving, so I believe that, although he knows everything (omniscient perspective), he did not set our individual fates. Theoretically, it is possible that 100% of humanity could go to heaven in this way, but only a select few through the predestination belief. Furthermore, what is the point in creating a someone that God is damning to hell? We are children of God, and God wants us to be with him in heaven, would he not give us all an equal chance?

In the predestination belief, is there no Judgement day? For everyone’s fate was already decided…In this way, there is no reason for Christians to live a humble, selfless, caring life. Jesus set an example of this lifestyle for us for a reason. James 2:14-26 shows that faith PLUS works are needed. “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

two of the citations used to argue predestination are: Ephesians 1:3-6 and (more this one)

Ephesians 2:8-10
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

could someone please translate the meaning of these verses??

Thank you very much in advance!
 
First, the argument that someone could be completely unfaithful is inaccurate because it misunderstands the concept of predestination. Predestination doesn’t only determine the end result, but also the journey. To make use of a metaphor once used by CS Lewis (for a different reason, but it’s still applicable), predestination would work like a book with God as the author. God can say the Person A is going to walk down the street and decide to turn into a shop to buy some food. Then they walk out, go home, eat with their family, and go to bed. If you were the character in the book, the decision would have seemed to have been all yours. But for the author who write the book, the character is in a different timeline outside of his.

Assuming we are predestined, there wouldn’t be salvation for the unfaithful just as their isn’t if we aren’t. It’s just that those destined to be saved also are destined to do good works and, more importantly, live faithful lives in all aspects.

*Disclaimer, I don’t fully believe in predestination. However, ultimately, it shouldn’t make a difference in how we live because you should live faithfully regardless.
 
Predestination is biblical, as the Bible refers to it multiple times. But your friends position is a heresy known as double predestination. The Catholic Church teaches that God predestines people to heaven, but no one to hell. There is the Thomist (Dominicans) position, the Congruist (Jesuits) position (Molinism that’s developed and slightly closer to Thomism), the Molinist, the Augustinian, and possibly a few more within the CC about how God predestines people. IMO, the Congruist version is the best. But in the end, it’s all a mystery how God does it.
 
Predestination is specifically mentioned in Romans 8:29.

Augustine, Aquinas and Molina are the three positions availiable to faithful catholics.😃
 
Tennis77 said:
I was talking to a Protestant friend, and I discovered that she believes in predestination; that it is predetermined, before birth, whether one will enter the Kingdom of God or hell. Her denomination is sola scriptora, meaning the Bible is the only authority, so where in the bible is predestination supported?

Thank you very much in advance!
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If you want to dig deep in this I suggest googling ‘Calvin vs Arminian’ where you can find loads of thoughtful discussion on the five key differences

Calvinist TULIP

  1. *]Total Depravity
    *]Unconditional Election
    *]Limited Atonement
    *]Irresistible Grace
    *]Perseverance of Salvation

    Then dig into the content on Uncondintional Election. What you will find is that both sides of the debate can quote bible versus that support their position. You won’t win the argument by quoting the bible.

    Personally, I choose to believe in a loving God that wants everyone to be saved, hence I side with the Arminian view.
 
ConsciousCoward said:
First, the argument that someone could be completely unfaithful is inaccurate because it misunderstands the concept of predestination. Predestination doesn’t only determine the end result, but also the journey. To make use of a metaphor once used by CS Lewis (for a different reason, but it’s still applicable), predestination would work like a book with God as the author. God can say the Person A is going to walk down the street and decide to turn into a shop to buy some food. Then they walk out, go home, eat with their family, and go to bed. If you were the character in the book, the decision would have seemed to have been all yours. But for the author who write the book, the character is in a different timeline outside of his.

Assuming we are predestined, there wouldn’t be salvation for the unfaithful just as their isn’t if we aren’t. It’s just that those destined to be saved also are destined to do good works and, more importantly, live faithful lives in all aspects.

*Disclaimer, I don’t fully believe in predestination. However, ultimately, it shouldn’t make a difference in how we live because you should live faithfully regardless.
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I understand what you are saying. I have an important point though: you say that if one is predestined to heaven, then they will also do good works. If someone does an abundant amount of good works and is known as a selfless person, I would tend to think that the person is likely to go to heaven. However, these characteristics of the person are part of the actions that person chose. If one decides to be a good person and give to others as much as possible, is that not a mental decision that he/she makes? Does such a decision not give a greater chance to going to heaven?
 
I am having a very difficult time understanding how people don’t have a choice in their actions. If i wanted to buy a gun and shoot people (this is theoretical of course) then I would have made that decision. Yes, God knows that I would do that, but he didn’t necessarily force me to. Likewise, I can decide to give my life to others and live as much like Chirst as I can. I would have to decide to do this. Where do the person’s decisions come into play. I don’t think anyone is acknowledging this
 
Tennis77 said:
I am having a very difficult time understanding how people don’t have a choice in their actions. If i wanted to buy a gun and shoot people (this is theoretical of course) then I would have made that decision. Yes, God knows that I would do that, but he didn’t necessarily force me to. Likewise, I can decide to give my life to others and live as much like Chirst as I can. I would have to decide to do this. Where do the person’s decisions come into play. I don’t think anyone is acknowledging this
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A calvinist would argue God already knows the outcome of your life, and whether you bought a gun and shot people. He knows whom he will save and who will be sent to hell, ergo it is predestined.

I prefer to believe I have the decision to open up to saving grace, to reading scripture and obeying commandments, to be saved. This doesn’t disupte I am saved by the grace of God rather than my own works.
 
I don’t think God’s foreknowledge of what we will decide to do takes away from our free will.
 
Tony888 said:
A calvinist would argue God already knows the outcome of your life, and whether you bought a gun and shot people. He knows whom he will save and who will be sent to hell, ergo it is predestined.
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I believe you are mixing ideas. Saying that God knows the outcome of your life (which Catholics do believe) (which you just said) is far different than saying God predestined you to heaven/hell.
Tony888 said:
He knows whom he will save and who will be sent to hell, ergo it is predestined.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not what I think of as predestined. You are using the phrase “God knows,” the key word being knows. Predestination is totally different than saying that God KNOWS your fate. Predestination means God would SET your fate ahead of time.

And doesn’t the Catholic church believe that God does not destine anyone to hell? Is it not his/her choice and actions that allow the person to fall from God’s teachings and the person continuously chooses sin/evil over God?
 
Tennis77 said:
I believe you are mixing ideas. Saying that God knows the outcome of your life (which Catholics do believe) (which you just said) is far different than saying God predestined you to heaven/hell.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not what I think of as predestined. You are using the phrase “God knows,” the key word being knows. Predestination is totally different than saying that God KNOWS your fate. Predestination means God would SET your fate ahead of time.

And doesn’t the Catholic church believe that God does not destine anyone to hell? Is it not his/her choice and actions that allow the person to fall from God’s teachings and the person continuously chooses sin/evil over God?
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I agree with you. While God does know everything that we will do before we do it, He certainly never ‘pre-plans’ for us to do anything evil. That would mean that God was capable of doing evil, and that’s totally impossible. God is ultimate Goodness. We have free will to choose between good and evil. I think that’s the big mistake of those who believe in literal ‘predestination’. That would completely remove our own free will and make anything we do here on earth, completely irrelevant.
 
Tennis77 said:
I believe you are mixing ideas. Saying that God knows the outcome of your life (which Catholics do believe) (which you just said) is far different than saying God predestined you to heaven/hell.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not what I think of as predestined. You are using the phrase “God knows,” the key word being knows. Predestination is totally different than saying that God KNOWS your fate. Predestination means God would SET your fate ahead of time.

And doesn’t the Catholic church believe that God does not destine anyone to hell? Is it not his/her choice and actions that allow the person to fall from God’s teachings and the person continuously chooses sin/evil over God?
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I’m not defending it, just sharing my understanding.

If God has provided you with sufficient Grace, then you cannot help but be saved.- you are predestined for heaven.

Other people have not received sufficient Grace. Maybe just enough to know they ar evil but not enough to be saved. God could have given these people sufficient Grace to be saved, but he did not. These people cannot be saved, it is not under their control. They are predestined for hell
 
I don’t know that much about predestination, but I know that Paul spoke of the “elect”, people who were chosen by God. I think in his times, he meant that the early Christians were chosen to be the Church - the body of Christ. I’m not sure what Paul had to say about free will, but he certainly had a lot to say about how to be a good Christian.

In some ways, it does seem like as Christians, we are the elect. We are so lucky to be worshipping Christ and following his way, while so many others are floundering about searching for answers in so many different places.

In some ways, I think God always knew that I would come back to the Church. But I do think we have to choose Christ and we do have free will to choose. However, some people never really see the light, and are ultimately lost. Predestination? It’s a deeper argument than most people think.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
In some ways, I think God always knew that I would come back to the Church. But I do think we have to choose Christ and we do have free will to choose. However, some people never really see the light, and are ultimately lost. ** Predestination? It’s a deeper argument than most people think**.
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Yes, it is a very complicated discussion, which helps explains why the debate has raged for centuries with no resolution.
 
Tony888 said:
I’m not defending it, just sharing my understanding.

If God has provided you with sufficient Grace, then you cannot help but be saved.- you are predestined for heaven.

Other people have not received sufficient Grace. Maybe just enough to know they ar evil but not enough to be saved. God could have given these people sufficient Grace to be saved, but he did not. These people cannot be saved, it is not under their control. They are predestined for hell
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I don’t think I agree here. God created man that all might be with him in Heaven. He doesn’t give grace randomly; he gives his Grace to all. The difference between heaven and hell would be whether or not the individual accepts the grace. He/she can still turn away from God’s grace or ignore it. What makes you say that some people don’t have to do anything different and they just get saved automatically. To me, that’s just lazy thinking, and people begin to sit back and relax, thinking they don’t have to do anything to get into Heaven. That is why we are on this earth! To get to Heaven! It is still up to the individual to accept God’s sanctifying Grace into his/her life.
 
Tony888 said:
Yes, it is a very complicated discussion, which helps explains why the debate has raged for centuries with no resolution.
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Was there not but one answer to the question for 15 centuries, through the one Church? Until the various reformers came tweaking the Church’s teachings as their human minds pleased. There are so many ways to use the Bible to “back up” the next guy’s interpretation. This is why Sacred Tradition plays such an important role. The Church was wrong for 1500 years until Martin Luther was born?
 
Found a great comparison, red highlights are mine
CALVINISM AND CATHOLICISM CONTRASTED

Calvin : God’s sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God’s sovereignty includes free will.

Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.

Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.

Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.

Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.

Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.

Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.

Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.

Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can’t fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.

Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.

Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.

Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.
Click to expand...
 
That is SO CONTRADICTING!! How is Calvanism sola scriptora? I would really really like to see some biblical references for those absurd claims, basically saying that all Calvanists are assured a place in heaven. What an ignorant thing to believe.
 
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