Is Protestantism , in it's nature, a heresy?

[Erich]

Do you believe that the word of God is limited to only the written word?

And how do you know the Bible is indeed the written word of God? Where does the Bible state such?

Hi,
Read 2 Timothy Ch 3 ,V’s 16 - 17…
Hope this answers the question.
Blessings to all.

But this passage does not tell us which books belong in the Bible or how to settle the issue ourselves.

I do not doubt the word .I cannot question my quote.
Blessings

I see you directed us to 2 Tim 3:16-17 and conveniently skipped past 2 Tim 3:14-15, which says: “But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

“Of whom thou hast learned them” not “of which books thou hast read them”

“from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures” – so which scriptures would that be? Why, just the Old Testament, of course… since no New Testament scripture had yet been written when Timothy was a child!

So, instead of accepting a 66-book bible, you should – based on your own criteria – accept only a 39-book Bible. And actually, since the holy scriptures Timothy would have known from childhood include the Deuterocanonicals (since the Council of Jamnia would not yet have taken place) you should accept only a 46-book Bible.

In other words, the only Bible you should accept is a Catholic Old Testament. That would certainly eliminate the need for you to deal with all those pesky references to Tradition in the New Testament.

BTW… 2 Tim 3:16 does say that all scripture is useful… but it does not say that all scripture is sufficient.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Here is something on the subject of origins:

youtube.com/watch?v=VN5f-EWPTP4

Blessings to all here:heaven:

 

[Luvtosew]

I see you directed us to 2 Tim 3:16-17 and conveniently skipped past 2 Tim 3:14-15, which says: “But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

“Of whom thou hast learned them” not “of which books thou hast read them”

“from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures” – so which scriptures would that be? Why, just the Old Testament, of course… since no New Testament scripture had yet been written when Timothy was a child!

So, instead of accepting a 66-book bible, you should – based on your own criteria – accept only a 39-book Bible. And actually, since the holy scriptures Timothy would have known from childhood include the Deuterocanonicals (since the Council of Jamnia would not yet have taken place) you should accept only a 46-book Bible.

In other words, the only Bible you should accept is a Catholic Old Testament. That would certainly eliminate the need for you to deal with all those pesky references to Tradition in the New Testament.

BTW… 2 Tim 3:16 does say that all scripture is useful… but it does not say that all scripture is sufficient.

See the verses your quoting there, that is the NT, so it was written apparently.

 

[Patavium]

highrigger1;9222018:

Hi Pat,

It holds water because the early church did in fact practice sola scriptura. Here is a quote.

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than
from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they
did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the
will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the
ground and pillar of our faith.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against
Heresies, Book III Ch.1)

Yes, we must follow the priests of the Church (through the traditions, and scripture) according to apostolic succession, and thus have received the truth from Jesus Christ. Both those protestants that separated from the succession then? Iraneus supported APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION.

I opened my copy of Irenænus book. Just to show that proof texting is a WEAK argument. Ah, and I never gave my position to this questions. Protestants are HERETICS, but they are also our BELOVED BROTHERS, and thus we welcome them back with open arms. God Bless.

But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.
Irenænus, Against Heresies 3.2.2

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
Irenænus, Against Heresies 3.3.2

For our Lord and Master, in the answer which He gave to the Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection, and who do therefore dishonour God, and lower the credit of the law, did both indicate a resurrection, and reveal God, saying to them, “Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” “For, touching the resurrection of the dead,” He says, “have ye not read that which was spoken by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?” And He added, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.” By these arguments He unquestionably made it clear, that He who spake to Moses out of the bush, and declared Himself to be the God of the fathers, He is the God of the living. For who is the God of the living unless He who is God, and above whom there is no other God? Whom also Daniel the prophet, when Cyrus king of the Persians said to him, “Why dost thou not worship Bel?” did proclaim, saying, “Because I do not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, who established the heaven and the earth and has dominion over all flesh.” Again did he say, “I will adore the Lord my God, because He is the living God.” He, then, who was adored by the prophets as the living God, He is the God of the living; and His Word is He who also spake to Moses, who also put the Sadducees to silence, who also bestowed the gift of resurrection, thus revealing [both] truths to those who are blind, that is, the resurrection and God [in His true character]. For if He be not the God of the dead, but of the living, yet was called the God of the fathers who were sleeping, they do indubitably live to God, and have not passed out of existence, since they are children of the resurrection. But our Lord is Himself the resurrection, as He does Himself declare, “I am the resurrection and the life.” But the fathers are His children; for it is said by the prophet: “Instead of thy fathers, thy children have been made to thee.” Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.
Irenænus, Against Heresies 4.5.2

 

[CopticChristian]

I opened my copy of Irenænus book. Just to show that proof texting is a WEAK argument. Ah, and I never gave my position to this questions. Protestants are HERETICS, but they are also our BELOVED BROTHERS, and thus we welcome them back with open arms. God Bless.
But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.
Irenænus, Against Heresies 3.2.2

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
Irenænus, Against Heresies 3.3.2

For our Lord and Master, in the answer which He gave to the Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection, and who do therefore dishonour God, and lower the credit of the law, did both indicate a resurrection, and reveal God, saying to them, “Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” “For, touching the resurrection of the dead,” He says, “have ye not read that which was spoken by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?” And He added, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.” By these arguments He unquestionably made it clear, that He who spake to Moses out of the bush, and declared Himself to be the God of the fathers, He is the God of the living. For who is the God of the living unless He who is God, and above whom there is no other God? Whom also Daniel the prophet, when Cyrus king of the Persians said to him, “Why dost thou not worship Bel?” did proclaim, saying, “Because I do not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, who established the heaven and the earth and has dominion over all flesh.” Again did he say, “I will adore the Lord my God, because He is the living God.” He, then, who was adored by the prophets as the living God, He is the God of the living; and His Word is He who also spake to Moses, who also put the Sadducees to silence, who also bestowed the gift of resurrection, thus revealing [both] truths to those who are blind, that is, the resurrection and God [in His true character]. For if He be not the God of the dead, but of the living, yet was called the God of the fathers who were sleeping, they do indubitably live to God, and have not passed out of existence, since they are children of the resurrection. But our Lord is Himself the resurrection, as He does Himself declare, “I am the resurrection and the life.” But the fathers are His children; for it is said by the prophet: “Instead of thy fathers, thy children have been made to thee.” Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.
Irenænus, Against Heresies 4.5.2

Pat,

I do not doubt that you believe this. So we can be on the same page, point me to the Catechism and Church teaching that says Protestants are heretics and our brothers. Should this be perhaps clarified to say Protestanism at it’s inception is heresy. Protestants are our Brothers and Sister. Let me know how I should view this.

 

[Patavium]

Pat,

I do not doubt that you believe this. So we can be on the same page, point me to the Catechism and Church teaching that says Protestants are heretics and our brothers. Should this be perhaps clarified to say Protestanism at it’s inception is heresy. Protestants are our Brothers and Sister. Let me know how I should view this.

Coptic, Thanks for your correction. I humbly accept the correction, and agree that Protestantism is Heresy, but still they are our beloved brothers in Jesus Christ.

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

I am adding this from CCC just for future reference for those that are learning about the true Church founded by Jesus Christ.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, Thanks for your correction. I humbly accept the correction, and agree that Protestantism is Heresy, but still they are our beloved brothers in Jesus Christ.

I am adding this from CCC just for future reference for those that are learning about the true Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Pat,

It would appear that you have provided me a view that we can share.

 

[onenow1]

Today I had a deep discussion with an Anglican friend of mine and we spoke about many topics. It further led to the core doctrines of Protestantism ; the 5 Solas. And various others.

I managed to point out how some of the core doctrines and various others are false and thus, are heretical doctrines. He admitted that these doctrines were clearly unorthodox and contradictory to Biblical and early church teachings.

My question is : If the core doctrines of Protestantism like Sola Scriptura are false, ergo in heresy, then is not Protestantism in its nature a heresy?

Hi,Wandile, I would say the original reformers are heretics but as the Protestants became more distanced from there forefathers it has become not so much so. I should name them searchers of the truth for the most part.

God Bless
Onenow1

 

[Erich]

See the verses your quoting there, that is the NT, so it was written apparently.

You completely missed the point. Obviously, Paul’s letter to Timothy was written (they didn’t have YouTube or e-mail back then). The fact that it was written is one – if not THE – main reason why we have it in our NT today.

But, just as obviously, it was not – and could not have been – part of the NT at the time it was written. There was no NT as such at the time (and, in fact, there wouldn’t even be a canonized NT for another 300+ years after Paul put quill to parchment).

So… which scriptures would Timothy have known *from childhood? *The same ones that can be found today in the Catholic Old Testament.

 

[silverdenali]

LOL. Boy I hope not. Weve all sang beautfiul hymns by these “heretics” in Mass.

 

[batman1973]

High,

The deuterocanonicals were removed. It matter not what Jerome says, what Luther said, what you believe…they were removed.

I thought it was discussed on this board that the deuterocannicals were removed for financial reasons, so why continue to perpetuate the myth that the Protestants removed them? (And you fly that banner a whole lot)

 

[CopticChristian]

I thought it was discussed on this board that the deuterocannicals were removed for financial reasons, so why continue to perpetuate the myth that the Protestants removed them? (And you fly that banner a whole lot)

Bat,

The banner flies HighRigger that said that no books were removed. This is not so. The Deuterocanonicals were removed by Protestant Bible printing companies for economic reasons…the highest authority in the Protestant circles deciding what is and what is not to be printed…It would appear that your attention is on the fact that the Catholic Church did not add any books.

You believe in advertising don’t you. How many times must you hear “Have it your Way” to buy a hamburger…makes them buy…and they don’t stop saying it.

How about those people in the south…the ones of color that for years sang “freedom” and even now they have to remind people…must you keep reminding us…

Let freedom ring…banners must be flown…lest we forget…glad you remmembered. My banner has made a point…

 

[PeterJohn]

Bat,

The banner flies HighRigger that said that no books were removed. This is not so. The Deuterocanonicals were removed by Protestant Bible printing companies for economic reasons…the highest authority in the Protestant circles deciding what is and what is not to be printed…It would appear that your attention is on the fact that the Catholic Church did not add any books.

You believe in advertising don’t you. How many times must you hear “Have it your Way” to buy a hamburger…makes them buy…and they don’t stop saying it.

How about those people in the south…the ones of color that for years sang “freedom” and even now they have to remind people…must you keep reminding us…

Let freedom ring…banners must be flown…lest we forget…glad you remmembered. My banner has made a point…

*****like

 

[batman1973]

Aww, geez. Now I want a cheeseburger. Point taken.

 

[CopticChristian]

Aww, geez. Now I want a cheeseburger. Point taken.

Pickles, lettuce and tomato or not…mayo or no mayo, hold the mustard…as you wish…

 

[Trebor135]

Bat,

The banner flies HighRigger that said that no books were removed. This is not so. The Deuterocanonicals were removed by Protestant Bible printing companies for economic reasons…the highest authority in the Protestant circles deciding what is and what is not to be printed…It would appear that your attention is on the fact that the Catholic Church did not add any books.

You believe in advertising don’t you. How many times must you hear “Have it your Way” to buy a hamburger…makes them buy…and they don’t stop saying it.

How about those people in the south…the ones of color that for years sang “freedom” and even now they have to remind people…must you keep reminding us…

Let freedom ring…banners must be flown…lest we forget…glad you remmembered. My banner has made a point…

CopticChristian, you should go study Spanish in an intensive program, become an itinerant preacher in Latin America (especially Guatemala, Mexico, and El Salvador), and go into full swing to reconvert all the new Protestants–who have been snatched up by those American “missionaries” in the past few decades–back to Catholicism, but add a twist by presenting them with the Coptic rite.

 

[Trebor135]

LOL. Boy I hope not. Weve all sang beautfiul hymns by these “heretics” in Mass.

Ideas can be heretical without their adherents being guilty, at least to the same extent as first-generation converts would be.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian, you should go study Spanish in an intensive program, become an itinerant preacher in Latin America (especially Guatemala, Mexico, and El Salvador), and go into full swing to reconvert all the new Protestants–who have been snatched up by those American “missionaries” in the past few decades–back to Catholicism, but add a twist by presenting them with the Coptic rite.

I speak Spanish.

 

[Patavium]

CopticChristian, you should go study Spanish in an intensive program, become an itinerant preacher in Latin America (especially Guatemala, Mexico, and El Salvador), and go into full swing to reconvert all the new Protestants–who have been snatched up by those American “missionaries” in the past few decades–back to Catholicism, but add a twist by presenting them with the Coptic rite.

I find this highly offensive. I am a latin american who came to the Catholic Church by help of the Holy Spirit alone. The Holy Spirit guided me through individuals, events, and other actions back to the Church. You can only help present the Word of God to others, but ultimately God will guide them where He wants them (and if they are open to God) to be. You cannot be the “holy spirit” in the lifer of others.

 

[Patavium]

Ideas can be heretical without their adherents being guilty, at least to the same extent as first-generation converts would be.

So you say even if it came from the Apostles themselves it could be heretical? How do we know is heretical? comparing the idea to the Bible (the written tradition passed down from the apostles to us)?

This is the same problem of protestants. Churches without authority. This is the reason why the Catholic Church has an authority.