Is Purgatory Illogical?

[MT1926]

In a dialogue on another thread it was pointed out to me that I was being illogical when it comes to Purgatory.

I was told:
Here I request intellectual honesty.

*If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.

I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.*

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Basically I was hit with a bunch of questions with no explanations. Since the person I was speaking with was banned it left me with the question "Is Purgatory Illogical?"

After much prayer and study I have discovered that most people tend to get lost in the depth of what Purgatory is or isn’t. So instead of diving into the deep end I would like to try and keep this thread in the shallow end of the pool and discuss the following concept.

The logical case for Purgatory.

First the Bible clearly states that there will be neither sin nor an attachment to sin in heaven.

Second, we ,well me anyway, (I don’t want to judge others) are still presently sinning and will most likely still be attached to some sin at the end of this life.

The above 2 statements lead me to conclude that there must be a period between death and heaven in which we, the saved brothers and sisters of Christ, are cleansed of sin and/or our attachments to sin.

The only way I foresee getting around this logical conclusion is if one of the above 2 statements were untrue. However, I have found both statements, 1 and 2, to be Biblical.

Revelation 21:27 is clear that sin nor an attachment to sin can enter heaven.
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
As well as, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and

1 John 1:8 is clear that we are all sinners.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As i stated above I would appreciate if this thread doesn’t turn into an argument of the minute details of what Purgatory is or isn’t. The point of the thread which I really need an answer to is:

If nothing unclean can enter heaven and we are all sinners, if we do not undergo some sort of purification after death, how do we become clean after death to enter into heaven?

 

[SyroMalankara]

One of the problems with Protestant understanding on this, and even the medieval Latin Catholic presentation of this, is the speaking of Purgatory as eternal and a place - as opposed to transitory and a state. The whole concept is due to Christ, not in spite of Him

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Totally logical.

#1 salvation is a process just like practically everything else in life.

Logically speaking, we are in a form of purgatory right now. The Holy Spirit is a divine artist, and He is teaching and purging us right now. If we die a friend of God, yet still not totally purged, God continues the work within us to make us presentable to enter heaven. And this is possible thanks to Jesus work on the cross, not in addition to it. The only thing lacking is our severe frailty as human beings.

We know there is a period or state of being after we die in which the spirits of the ***just ***men are made perfect. Hebrews 12:23

Whether this is actual fire, or metaphorical, we don’t know. 1 Cor 3:15

But it’s clear to me that there is something that takes place when the “saved” take their last breath here.

God did not go into much detail scripturally so I understand why SS practicing Christians reject the idea.

There have been some very bright non-Catholic minds who understood the concept and believed in it themselves, even though they reject the Catholic church…C.S. Lewis is one name that comes to mind.

 

[Wannano]

In a dialogue on another thread it was pointed out to me that I was being illogical when it comes to Purgatory.

I was told:
Here I request intellectual honesty.

*If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.

I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.*

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Basically I was hit with a bunch of questions with no explanations. Since the person I was speaking with was banned it left me with the question "Is Purgatory Illogical?"

After much prayer and study I have discovered that most people tend to get lost in the depth of what Purgatory is or isn’t. So instead of diving into the deep end I would like to try and keep this thread in the shallow end of the pool and discuss the following concept.

The logical case for Purgatory.

First the Bible clearly states that there will be neither sin nor an attachment to sin in heaven.

Second, we ,well me anyway, (I don’t want to judge others) are still presently sinning and will most likely still be attached to some sin at the end of this life.

The above 2 statements lead me to conclude that there must be a period between death and heaven in which we, the saved brothers and sisters of Christ, are cleansed of sin and/or our attachments to sin.

The only way I foresee getting around this logical conclusion is if one of the above 2 statements were untrue. However, I have found both statements, 1 and 2, to be Biblical.

Revelation 21:27 is clear that sin nor an attachment to sin can enter heaven.
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
As well as, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and

1 John 1:8 is clear that we are all sinners.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As i stated above I would appreciate if this thread doesn’t turn into an argument of the minute details of what Purgatory is or isn’t. The point of the thread which I really need an answer to is:

If nothing unclean can enter heaven and we are all sinners, if we do not undergo some sort of purification after death, how do we become clean after death to enter into heaven?

 

[Wannano]

In a dialogue on another thread it was pointed out to me that I was being illogical when it comes to Purgatory.

I was told:
Here I request intellectual honesty.

*If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.

I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.*

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Basically I was hit with a bunch of questions with no explanations. Since the person I was speaking with was banned it left me with the question "Is Purgatory Illogical?"

After much prayer and study I have discovered that most people tend to get lost in the depth of what Purgatory is or isn’t. So instead of diving into the deep end I would like to try and keep this thread in the shallow end of the pool and discuss the following concept.

The logical case for Purgatory.

First the Bible clearly states that there will be neither sin nor an attachment to sin in heaven.

Second, we ,well me anyway, (I don’t want to judge others) are still presently sinning and will most likely still be attached to some sin at the end of this life.

The above 2 statements lead me to conclude that there must be a period between death and heaven in which we, the saved brothers and sisters of Christ, are cleansed of sin and/or our attachments to sin.

The only way I foresee getting around this logical conclusion is if one of the above 2 statements were untrue. However, I have found both statements, 1 and 2, to be Biblical.

Revelation 21:27 is clear that sin nor an attachment to sin can enter heaven.
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
As well as, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and

1 John 1:8 is clear that we are all sinners.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As i stated above I would appreciate if this thread doesn’t turn into an argument of the minute details of what Purgatory is or isn’t. The point of the thread which I really need an answer to is:

If nothing unclean can enter heaven and we are all sinners, if we do not undergo some sort of purification after death, how do we become clean after death to enter into heaven?

I am not a Catholic but have some interest in this discussion. I am interested in knowing how you and /or others understand the last part of Rev. 21:27 you quoted …“but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life.”

 

[Lenten_ashes]

, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I kind of prefer this translation of that passage:

Matthew 5:48Common English Bible (CEB)

48 Therefore, just as your heavenly Father is complete in showing love to everyone, so also you must be complete.

We are very stubborn beings and unless we die in a Mother Teresa type state, we probably are not yet “complete” in our walk with Christ and His redemptive work within us.

We should be clay, but most of us are marble.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I am not a Catholic but have some interest in this discussion. I am interested in knowing how you and /or others understand the last part of Rev. 21:27 you quoted …“but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life.”

Only those who die in God’s friendship and grace. It doesn’t imply some sort of predestination. All have been invited, but those who refuse God’s invitation will not have their names written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Completely logical, Revelation 21:27

 

[Eichelbaum]

If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.

I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind

In Catholic theology, Jesus’ death, when applied to a repentant individual, forgives such an individual of the **eternal **consequences of their sin. This being the case, I would ask your friend to demonstrate, rather than assert, why the removal of the **eternal **consequences of sin is not a good enough reason for Christ to offer Himself to the Father. In fact, that’s precisely what your friend probably believes Christ died to do. So, since he agrees with this part of the Catholic position, why is he arguing with it?

The second point is equivocation: they are using the object of forgiveness, of what is being forgiven, as if it can only have one sense … and then they are imposing this one sense onto Catholic theology in an effort to find inconsistency. But being forgiven of the eternal consequences of sin does not imply that one necessarily must be forgiven of the temporal consequences of sin by the same act.

Your friend asks why purification is necessary if Jesus died. Again … Jesus died so that we can be forgiven of the eternal consequences of our sin, i.e., so that we can live in friendship with God. Whether or not purification is needed even after the eternal consequences of sin are forgiven is not addressed by Jesus’ death. To claim otherwise by mere assertion is not to make a good argument, but is rather itself illogical insofar as it claims a non sequitur. (I would add that also that purification is only possible in light of the merit of Christ’s death.)

But your friend should also keep in mind that he probably agrees with aspects of the Catholic position on this point, too.

Namely: Catholics and Protestants agree that no one in heaven is sinning, we will stop sinning when we go to heaven, and will be free of sin. But yet, we also agree that, before death, we will still be sinners. Catholics and Protestants disagree, however, on what they call that transition, and how to flesh it out theologically.

But in essence, they agree, and what we often do is not heed St. Paul’s warning in 2 Timothy 2:14: we quarrel about words when we often agree far more than we are willing to admit, and, simply for the sake of finding fault in each other, and in breaking down what the other believes, we insist on having fights.

 

[johnnyc176]

Those being purified are saved. Purgatory is a process not a place.

 

[Eichelbaum]

Those being purified are saved. Purgatory is a process not a place.

I would also point out that this notion of “place” seems complicated, and it seems to be acceptable for a Catholic to hold that Purgatory is a place, and also for another Catholic to disagree.

 

[johnnyc176]

I would also point out that this notion of “place” seems complicated, and it seems to be acceptable for a Catholic to hold that Purgatory is a place, and also for another Catholic to disagree.

Well the catechism seems to imply that it is a process…

ccc 1030 but after death they undergo purification

ccc 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect

 

[Eichelbaum]

Well the catechism seems to imply that it is a process…

It can also be a state, and still further it can be a “place” of sorts.

… or at least that’s my understanding. I think I may be conflating theologically acceptable positions on heaven and hell with those one can hold about purgatory. Purgatory doesn’t have physical bodies in it, and never will, so perhaps it’s not much of a “place” it all. Souls don’t have a location, after all.

Anyway, this is tangential on my part. Apologies for bringing up irrelevant threads into the discussion.

 

[johnnyc176]

Also while our sins are forgiven what of the effects of our sins…

If my child breaks a window and he comes to me and says he is sorry. I forgive him but tell him I will deduct from his allowance to pay for a new window.

 

[Polycarp1]

Is man’s logic logical? Are we holding God’s actions up to our own limited ability to scrutinize?

 

[Memaw]

I would also point out that this notion of “place” seems complicated, and it seems to be acceptable for a Catholic to hold that Purgatory is a place, and also for another Catholic to disagree.

Just shows it is very hard to put God’s will in our terms. Souls don’t need space but yet purgatory has to exist somewhere. I leave all that up to God, I’m sure HE knows what HE is doing even if I don’t. I love HIS awesome mysteries. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Rhubarb]

The statement “if purgatory exists, then there was no reason for Jesus to die” is not an argument. The only logical analysis we can do to it is determine what makes the statement true or false. And that wouldn’t be helpful.

As far as I understand the Catholic explanation of purgatory, there is no inherent logical contradiction in play. In fact, as an outsider I think the doctrine of purgatory is coherent and consistent.

 

[Polycarp1]

I would also point out that this notion of “place” seems complicated, and it seems to be acceptable for a Catholic to hold that Purgatory is a place, and also for another Catholic to disagree.

Very true, we try to understand spiritual concepts within our own limited span of knowledge and capacity to understand. We try to describe them with our own limited ability to perceive and to communicate. We know that God does not exist in time or space, nor is He limited by them. Our knowledge of God is limited only to what He has revealed, and that what hasn’t been revealed is the work of eternity or what we call mystery. Theologian Frank Sheed said that mysteries are things we can’t know everything about, but they are not things that we can know nothing about. Fortunately for us God has done enough and revealed enough to get us to Heaven.

 

[MT1926]

I am not a Catholic but have some interest in this discussion. I am interested in knowing how you and /or others understand the last part of Rev. 21:27 you quoted …“but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life.”

The way I understand… “but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life.”, is that these are the names of the righteous that will be saved on the last day. However, just because our name is written into the book of life on the day we received our initial salvation does not mean it will remain there until the last day. It is possible to lose salvation and have our name erased from the Lambs book of life.

Revelation 3:5, Jesus states: “He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

 

[Catholic4Christ]

I believe and practice the faith and try to be a decent person and pray and whatnot, but I’m 100% sure that even on my best day I’m not yet what the saints are like in heaven in terms of holiness. So if I die today, either I’m hell-bound or God has to change me. I pray that I’m not hell-bound. I’d be happy for God to be willing to change me to be more like him even after I die. That’s what the cross is all about.

Jesus said “take up your cross.” Working on it but still haven’t become perfect as the Father is perfect. If I die Jesus would need to help my soul finish the task. Always seemed logical to me.