Is Purgatory Illogical?

[Della]

I like what C. S. Lewis had to say about purgatory: angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm. Seems perfectly logical to me.

 

[DCNBILL]

Is man’s logic logical? Are we holding God’s actions up to our own limited ability to scrutinize?

Great point.

I would add if I died now would I be able to stand before God. I would have to admit, no. It seems that for us common folk who have not completely conformed our wills to that of our Creator. some transformation is needed in order for ourselves to be “purified” of that which we still cling to of this earth. Wither it be jealously, sensualism or whatever we will have to be made ready for that Beatific Vision, only that which is pure can stand before God.

 

[MT1926]

One of the problems with Protestant understanding on this, and even the medieval Latin Catholic presentation of this, is the speaking of Purgatory as eternal and a place - as opposed to transitory and a state. The whole concept is due to Christ, not in spite of Him

Yeah I noticed on the other thread that details like these were what people spend all of their time arguing about. That is why I am trying to go about it in a logical way, basically yes or no and why?

I see so many times people will hone in on one point and refuse to accept any of it because of the one point. I’m hoping by starting with the basics it will get people more willing to keep an open mind when we get into the details.

 

[MT1926]

Totally logical.

#1 salvation is a process just like practically everything else in life.

Logically speaking, we are in a form of purgatory right now. The Holy Spirit is a divine artist, and He is teaching and purging us right now.

Very insightful. I’ve often joked to friends how do you know you aren’t in purgatory right now. I guess logically we just might be.

Also like Hebrews 12:23.

Thanks

 

[susanlo]

Also while our sins are forgiven what of the effects of our sins…

If my child breaks a window and he comes to me and says he is sorry. I forgive him but tell him I will deduct from his allowance to pay for a new window.

I am a non-Catholic and I am not familiar with purgatory. I had never tried to understand what may happen in the afterlife. We really have little specific information to go on. I have always just figured we will be in God’s hands after our death, and it will be what it will be no matter what we happen to believe it will be.

However, when I learned from Catholic friends that there is a belief that some will experience “punishment” for forgiven sins I was surprised. I thought that was unbiblical. Clearly in our earthly lives we can experience temporal effects of sin. (If you steal, you could be imprisoned - If you have an affair, you may experience a divorce, etc. etc.) But the Bible seems clear that when God forgives sins, he remembers them no more.

In Luke 15:11-32 there is the parable of the prodigal son. The son abandons his father and leads a sinful life. When he comes to his senses he returns broken and repentant. He is immediately welcomed with open arms and restored to being fully a son with all of the privileges. There is no mention of him paying off his sins or making reparations to his father for what he lost.

In Luke 23 when Jesus is on the cross with the 2 criminals, and one says: “40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.””
“43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
-Wouldn’t a guilty criminal have to spend time in purgatory even if he was forgiven? Why today?

David (who was surely guilty of a few “mortal” sins) wrote about forgiveness in the Psalms a lot.

Psalm 32:
“1
Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
2
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.”

Psalm 51 (written when Nathan came to him after his affair with Bathsheba)
This whole Psalm is about forgiveness, but especially:
“7Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9
Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity”

-This shows that David felt that all the iniquity could be washed away. After confessing to God, he thought he could be made “whiter than snow.”

And finally in Psalm 103, David says:
“9
He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10
he does not treat us as our sins deserve
** or repay us according to our iniquities.**
11
For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12
as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.”

If David could experience this kind of forgiveness in the old law, why would the new law with Jesus’ sacrifice only provide partial forgiveness?

Isaiah 1:18 prophesies about Jesus:
““Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.”

If someone says there is purgatory for unconfessed sins, I wouldn’t find reason to argue. I don’t know that this is true, but I don’t have hard proof to disprove that this is possible.
I think it is important for every Christian to know when they have sincerely confessed their sins to God and turned from their sinful ways, that they have been made “white as snow” in God’s eyes. Carrying the burden of sins can interfere with having a relationship with God.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Very insightful. I’ve often joked to friends how do you know you aren’t in purgatory right now. I guess logically we just might be.

Also like Hebrews 12:23.

Thanks

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I am a non-Catholic and I am not familiar with purgatory. I had never tried to understand what may happen in the afterlife. We really have little specific information to go on. I have always just figured we will be in God’s hands after our death, and it will be what it will be no matter what we happen to believe it will be.

However, when I learned from Catholic friends that there is a belief that some will experience “punishment” for forgiven sins I was surprised. I thought that was unbiblical. Clearly in our earthly lives we can experience temporal effects of sin. (If you steal, you could be imprisoned - If you have an affair, you may experience a divorce, etc. etc.) But the Bible seems clear that when God forgives sins, he remembers them no more.

In Luke 15:11-32 there is the parable of the prodigal son. The son abandons his father and leads a sinful life. When he comes to his senses he returns broken and repentant. He is immediately welcomed with open arms and restored to being fully a son with all of the privileges. There is no mention of him paying off his sins or making reparations to his father for what he lost.

In Luke 23 when Jesus is on the cross with the 2 criminals, and one says: “40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.””
“43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
-Wouldn’t a guilty criminal have to spend time in purgatory even if he was forgiven? Why today?

David (who was surely guilty of a few “mortal” sins) wrote about forgiveness in the Psalms a lot.

Psalm 32:
“1
Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
2
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.”

Psalm 51 (written when Nathan came to him after his affair with Bathsheba)
This whole Psalm is about forgiveness, but especially:
“7Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9
Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity”

-This shows that David felt that all the iniquity could be washed away. After confessing to God, he thought he could be made “whiter than snow.”

And finally in Psalm 103, David says:
“9
He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10
he does not treat us as our sins deserve
** or repay us according to our iniquities.**
11
For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12
as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.”

If David could experience this kind of forgiveness in the old law, why would the new law with Jesus’ sacrifice only provide partial forgiveness?

Isaiah 1:18 prophesies about Jesus:
““Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.”

If someone says there is purgatory for unconfessed sins, I wouldn’t find reason to argue. I don’t know that this is true, but I don’t have hard proof to disprove that this is possible.
I think it is important for every Christian to know when they have sincerely confessed their sins to God and turned from their sinful ways, that they have been made “white as snow” in God’s eyes. Carrying the burden of sins can interfere with having a relationship with God.

Interesting you would mention David.

Another Catholic principle of purgatory is that there can be punishment or consequence for sin, even after one is forgiven by God:

2 Samuel 12:13-14New Living Translation (NLT)

David Confesses His Guilt
13 Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “Yes, but the Lord has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. 14 Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the Lord[a] by doing this, your child will die.”

 

[susanlo]

Interesting you would mention David.

Another Catholic principle of purgatory is that there can be punishment or consequence for sin, even after one is forgiven by God:

Yes, I believe I mentioned there can be earthly consequences of sin. Occasionally it may be imposed by God. More often it is caused by the realities of the world.

Did King David go to purgatory?

 

[jinglebelle]

Very insightful. I’ve often joked to friends how do you know you aren’t in purgatory right now. I guess logically we just might be.

Also like Hebrews 12:23.

Thanks

Cardinal Basil Hume said we should live in the now, perhaps now is purgatory for some, for others now is hell. It doesn’t have to be something to come. Christians always think it is something to come,perhaps we miss what is now

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yes, I believe I mentioned there can be earthly consequences of sin. Occasionally it may be imposed by God. More often it is caused by the realities of the world.

Did King David go to purgatory?

There has been much debate on the spirits that Jesus preached to when He died. Where exactly were these spirits.

And I think Jesus knows his audience in Matthew 12:32

Matthew 12:32New International Version (NIV)

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

He’s talking to first century Jews who pray for the dead: 2 Maccabees 12:39-45

And it’s also interesting that Jesus tells the thief on the cross “this day thou shalt be with me in paradise”,Luke 23:43…when He, Himself didn’t ascend that day.

 

[Della]

Cardinal Basil Hume said we should live in the now, perhaps now is purgatory for some, for others now is hell. It doesn’t have to be something to come. Christians always think it is something to come,perhaps we miss what is now

Certainly we can divest ourselves of earthly attachments that take us away from God and pay the temporal punishment for our sins now. The first is accomplished by loving God above all else–even family, because if we don’t love God as we ought to do, we won’t love even our dearest loved ones the way we ought to do. And the second can be done in many ways from giving alms, to prayer, to doing good things for others. We can and do make a huge difference as to our life hereafter by the things we don/don’t do now. :yup:

 

[MT1926]

We are very stubborn beings and unless we die in a Mother Teresa type state, we probably are not yet “complete” in our walk with Christ and His redemptive work within us.

We should be clay, but most of us are marble.

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

It made me think of the Matt Maher song “A Future Not My Own”. One of my favorites. When he sings “Love is a long and narrow road” makes me think of what my walk with Christ is, and how difficult it can be to stay on the narrow road in this secular world.

Thank you,
God Bless

 

[johnnyc176]

I am a non-Catholic and I am not familiar with purgatory. I had never tried to understand what may happen in the afterlife. We really have little specific information to go on. I have always just figured we will be in God’s hands after our death, and it will be what it will be no matter what we happen to believe it will be.

However, when I learned from Catholic friends that there is a belief that some will experience “punishment” for forgiven sins I was surprised. I thought that was unbiblical. Clearly in our earthly lives we can experience temporal effects of sin. (If you steal, you could be imprisoned - If you have an affair, you may experience a divorce, etc. etc.) But the Bible seems clear that when God forgives sins, he remembers them no more.

In Luke 15:11-32 there is the parable of the prodigal son. The son abandons his father and leads a sinful life. When he comes to his senses he returns broken and repentant. He is immediately welcomed with open arms and restored to being fully a son with all of the privileges. There is no mention of him paying off his sins or making reparations to his father for what he lost.

In Luke 23 when Jesus is on the cross with the 2 criminals, and one says: “40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.””
“43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
-Wouldn’t a guilty criminal have to spend time in purgatory even if he was forgiven? Why today?

If someone says there is purgatory for unconfessed sins, I wouldn’t find reason to argue. I don’t know that this is true, but I don’t have hard proof to disprove that this is possible.
I think it is important for every Christian to know when they have sincerely confessed their sins to God and turned from their sinful ways, that they have been made “white as snow” in God’s eyes.

Not really interested in dueling Bible verses and someone already mentioned David’s punishment but really it all comes down to the Authority Christ gave the Catholic Church or the authority you have given yourself. The doctrine of Purgatory has many elements…praying for the dead, communion of saints, indulgences that the Church has received from God’s Word, understanding that God’s Word comes to us through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So I will just give you some material to read if you choose to.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM

agapebiblestudy.com/BEATITUDES/Lesson_4.htm

Carrying the burden of sins can interfere with having a relationship with God

Sin isn’t just personal sin. Every sin we commit adds to the burden of sin in our community and in the world. When we are obedient to the command of Christ to take up our cross and follow Him we unite our sufferings to Christ’s sufferings. To embrace our cross and mourn the world’s sins is to admit awareness and an intimate involvement in the suffering that sin brings to living things "man and beast alike. In our mourning we admit that our sins add to the suffering in the world.** Even when our sins are forgiven there is still accountability for our part in adding to the collective damage of world wide sin.** Our mourning of world sin is the recognition and shared responsibility for the fallen plight of humanity "sins of omission, sins of commission, accumulated sin, personal sin. Christ died that mankind might be delivered from all sin and therefore when we truly mourn our sin and the sin of the world we unite with Him in His liberating sacrifice that promises the end to all sin. We mourn, we offer penance which yields to redemptive pain in our suffering united with Christ and offered up to God "this is pain and passion that is transformed into compassion through the Passion of our Christ. This is an emptying of self in genuine mourning and sorrow for sins, but it is not grief, nor is it the level beyond grief which is despair. There is no despair in this mourning for this is the kind of mourning that welcomes comfort and love. The mourning that receives Christ’s blessing is a mourning that has seen mankind in its fallenness and nothing less will satisfy it than mankind fully restored (The Beatitudes: Soundings in Christian Tradition, Simon Tugwell, page 69).

 

[MT1926]

The statement “if purgatory exists, then there was no reason for Jesus to die” is not an argument. The only logical analysis we can do to it is determine what makes the statement true or false. And that wouldn’t be helpful.

As far as I understand the Catholic explanation of purgatory, there is no inherent logical contradiction in play. In fact, as an outsider I think the doctrine of purgatory is coherent and consistent.

Thank you for the response. I that’s what I kept asking the poster.

 

[MT1926]

I like what C. S. Lewis had to say about purgatory: angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm. Seems perfectly logical to me.

Wow that is great. Thank you. I have been saying that in other threads, why would we want to go to the banquet feast covered in filth, wouldn’t we want to be cleansed first. I like how Lewis says it. Now I can quote where it came from.

“Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - ‘Even so, sir.’”

Excellent I bookmarked that page.

 

[pablope]

I

I

 

[MT1926]

In Luke 15:11-32 there is the parable of the prodigal son. The son abandons his father and leads a sinful life. When he comes to his senses he returns broken and repentant. He is immediately welcomed with open arms and restored to being fully a son with all of the privileges. There is no mention of him paying off his sins or making reparations to his father for what he lost.

Just wanted to touch on this one verse cause being a father of 5 I love the parable of the prodigal son.

The parable is more about repentance and forgiveness so I wouldn’t expect it to speak about the son paying back the father. However, my favorite part of the parable is that the father doesn’t whisk the son directly into the banquet feast first he cleans him of his filth and gives him new cloths so he will not be reminded of the smell of the pigs while he is at the feast. Speaks to me of the cleansing I will receive in purgatory from a loving Father that wants me to be comfortable at the feast and not enter heaven unclean.

 

[susanlo]

Well…what do you understand by “Paradise”? Does this mean Heaven to you?

1 Peter 3:19-21 says…19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

So, where do you think Jesus was after the crucifixion?

The clue is in what Jews understood by Paradise:newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43)

I don’t know what Paradise is exactly. I think the Jewish of that day (and now) have different ideas on the afterlife. Was the crucified criminal in need of a cleansing period prior to going to Paradise? Why didn’t he go to Gehenna?

But you see, David confessed through Nathan:

Another one: 2Sam 12 (please read the whole chapter, will only cite this verse):

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”

And you will recognize also, that Psalm 51 was written by David after he had confessed to Nathan, not before.

Yes, Psalm 51 was written when Nathan came to him and David asked God to be forgiven. I don’t disagree with that. After he confessed of this great sin, he expected to be “whiter than snow.”

Well…how do you explain these passages with your statement above?

From Rev 7…14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I have heard many different understandings of Revelations. I feel this is hard to understand because things aren’t always what they may seem. I don’t see how it would contradict my statement.

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God

I think that is connected with the end of Chapter 6.
14 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial**? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[c]
17 Therefore,
“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”[d]
18 And,
“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”[e]

7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God."

I don’t know if this is relevant to purgatory, it’s about staying away from idolatry.**

 

[susanlo]

Just wanted to touch on this one verse cause being a father of 5 I love the parable of the prodigal son.

The parable is more about repentance and forgiveness so I wouldn’t expect it to speak about the son paying back the father. However, my favorite part of the parable is that the father doesn’t whisk the son directly into the banquet feast first he cleans him of his filth and gives him new cloths so he will not be reminded of the smell of the pigs while he is at the feast. Speaks to me of the cleansing I will receive in purgatory from a loving Father that wants me to be comfortable at the feast and not enter heaven unclean.

I do not see the part about cleaning him. I don’t see a cleaning in the versions I checked on Biblegateway.com. It says he put the best robe on him. The owner of the best robe was probably the father/landowner. So he covered him in the father’s robe. He also gave him a ring (sign of power in that day, I believe), and sandals. The robe may have improved the smell, but to say that the father bathed him would be adding something in. Is that part in a different version?

 

[Duane1966]

Taken from ShamelessPopery.

I haven’t heard Matthew 21:28-32 used to defend Purgatory before, but it seems to me that it does so pretty plainly. Jesus is speaking here to “the chief priests and elders of the people”:

• 28″But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’
  29″And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went.
  30″The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.
  31″Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them,** “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.***
  32″For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

There are plenty of directions in which to go from reading this. First, the Kingdom of God here refers to Heaven. The tax collectors and prostitutes already believe, but will get into the Kingdom of God, so it’s related to a future state. Second, Christ is explicitly tying salvation to obedient works: acts of faith, rather than simply belief. Third, this supports the notion of so-called “Anonymous Christians,” something usually denied by Protestants, and occassionally by Catholics as well. This is the notion that there are some who are not publicly Christians (and perhaps do not even consider themselves Christians), who still are Christians. Matthew 21:28-32 pretty clearly establishes that you can’t establish who’s damned simply by looking at the external markers.

But the most fundamental thing about the passage is that Jesus is saying that some people, due to their faith, will get to Heaven before others. If Purgatory weren’t real, I have no idea how one would read Matthew 21:31. Jesus obviously doesn’t mean that the tax collectors and prostitutes are going to die sooner. And so, if they’re not going to die sooner, but they are going to arrive in Heaven sooner, doesn’t that suggest that the chief priests and elders are going to be delayed a bit after death? Note also that here, Jesus isn’t suggesting that they’re not going to Heaven, just that they’re going to get there after the tax collectors and prostitutes. In fact, if they’re not getting there at all, I don’t see how v. 31 makes sense.

One further note. For anyone who says that Purgatory takes away what Jesus did on the Cross, that is the illogical comment. What Jesus did on the cross makes Purgatory possible. Without His sacrifice, there is no chance for any of us to have a shot at Heaven. But only something pure and holy can enter Heaven. I have yet to meet the person who believes that they are holy enough right now for the Beatific Vision.

Purgatory simply means purification. Some of us who die, will die in God’s friendship but are not quite holy enough for the Beatific Vision. They will go to Purgatory.