Is Purgatory Illogical?

[fbl9]

I don’t know what Paradise is exactly. I think the Jewish of that day (and now) have different ideas on the afterlife. Was the crucified criminal in need of a cleansing period prior to going to Paradise? Why didn’t he go to Gehenna?

snip…

We do know that it wasn`t heaven for Jesus said that He has yet been to the Father .St.John 20:16

 

[Wesrock]

Baptism does not free us of concupiscence. We remain attached to sin and worldly vices in this life to some degree. Purgatory is not a place. It’s not a literal fire. It’s a state we pass through in which our attachment to sin is figuratively burned away. And yes, this may be through some suffering or discipline to correct our ways, for those who haven’t already experienced such trials and passed all attachment to sin this life.

It’s not inconsistent with the early Church and Church Fathers, either: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

 

[simspt]

In a dialogue on another thread it was pointed out to me that I was being illogical when it comes to Purgatory.

I was told:
Here I request intellectual honesty.

*If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.

I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.*

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Basically I was hit with a bunch of questions with no explanations. Since the person I was speaking with was banned it left me with the question "Is Purgatory Illogical?"

After much prayer and study I have discovered that most people tend to get lost in the depth of what Purgatory is or isn’t. So instead of diving into the deep end I would like to try and keep this thread in the shallow end of the pool and discuss the following concept.

The logical case for Purgatory.

First the Bible clearly states that there will be neither sin nor an attachment to sin in heaven.

Second, we ,well me anyway, (I don’t want to judge others) are still presently sinning and will most likely still be attached to some sin at the end of this life.

The above 2 statements lead me to conclude that there must be a period between death and heaven in which we, the saved brothers and sisters of Christ, are cleansed of sin and/or our attachments to sin.

The only way I foresee getting around this logical conclusion is if one of the above 2 statements were untrue. However, I have found both statements, 1 and 2, to be Biblical.

Revelation 21:27 is clear that sin nor an attachment to sin can enter heaven.
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
As well as, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and

1 John 1:8 is clear that we are all sinners.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As i stated above I would appreciate if this thread doesn’t turn into an argument of the minute details of what Purgatory is or isn’t. The point of the thread which I really need an answer to is:

If nothing unclean can enter heaven and we are all sinners, if we do not undergo some sort of purification after death, how do we become clean after death to enter into heaven?

absolute opposite as a former Protestant turned Catholic I use to always think to myself logically Purgatory made perfect sense considering deathbed conversions and what not.

 

[Tommy999]

In Catholic theology, Jesus’ death, when applied to a repentant individual, forgives such an individual of the **eternal **consequences of their sin. This being the case, I would ask your friend to demonstrate, rather than assert, why the removal of the **eternal **consequences of sin is not a good enough reason for Christ to offer Himself to the Father. In fact, that’s precisely what your friend probably believes Christ died to do. So, since he agrees with this part of the Catholic position, why is he arguing with it?

The second point is equivocation: they are using the object of forgiveness, of what is being forgiven, as if it can only have one sense … and then they are imposing this one sense onto Catholic theology in an effort to find inconsistency. But being forgiven of the eternal consequences of sin does not imply that one necessarily must be forgiven of the temporal consequences of sin by the same act.

Your friend asks why purification is necessary if Jesus died. Again … Jesus died so that we can be forgiven of the eternal consequences of our sin, i.e., so that we can live in friendship with God. Whether or not purification is needed even after the eternal consequences of sin are forgiven is not addressed by Jesus’ death. To claim otherwise by mere assertion is not to make a good argument, but is rather itself illogical insofar as it claims a non sequitur. (I would add that also that purification is only possible in light of the merit of Christ’s death.)

But your friend should also keep in mind that he probably agrees with aspects of the Catholic position on this point, too.

***Namely: Catholics and Protestants agree that no one in heaven is sinning, we will stop sinning when we go to heaven, and will be free of sin. But yet, we also agree that, before death, we will still be sinners. Catholics and Protestants disagree, however, on what they call that transition, and how to flesh it out theologically.

But in essence, they agree, and what we often do is not heed St. Paul’s warning in 2 Timothy 2:14: we quarrel about words when we often agree far more than we are willing to admit, and, simply for the sake of finding fault in each other, and in breaking down what the other believes, we insist on having fights***.

Yes, my view is very similar to this, Eichelbaum.

I truly don’t know if there is a purgatory, but I am open to there being one. However, it is not a big deal to me either way. Let me briefly explain.

If we abide in Christ and have confessed our sins contritely prior to death, when we pass from this life into the next it will be like being strapped securely in a Roller Coaster at your local amusement park. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Regardless of what we believe about Purgatory, we will go where Christ determines we will go, whether it be straight to heaven or a detour through Purgatory. Whatever a Christian believes about Purgatory will be irrelevant at that point.

The best part of what I understand Catholicism teaches about Purgatory is that after our stay in Purgatory is over, it is on to heaven we go. If I understand correctly, once we get to Purgatory Jesus won’t change His mind and send us to the other place, praise God. The way I look at it, if Purgatory is where I am sent I will accept it willingly – knowing that my final home will be with the Lord in heaven.

 

[Wannano]

Yes, my view is very similar to this, Eichelbaum.

I truly don’t know if there is a purgatory, but I am open to there being one. However, it is not a big deal to me either way. Let me briefly explain.

If we abide in Christ and have confessed our sins contritely prior to death, when we pass from this life into the next it will be like being strapped securely in a Roller Coaster at your local amusement park. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Regardless of what we believe about Purgatory, we will go where Christ determines we will go, whether it be straight to heaven or a detour through Purgatory. Whatever a Christian believes about Purgatory will be irrelevant at that point.

The best part of what I understand Catholicism teaches about Purgatory is that after our stay in Purgatory is over, it is on to heaven we go. If I understand correctly, once we get to Purgatory Jesus won’t change His mind and send us to the other place, praise God. The way I look at it, if Purgatory is where I am sent I will accept it willingly – knowing that my final home will be with the Lord in heaven.

That is the way I see it too, why stress about purgatory, and if Jesus intercede and says something like " I’ve got him covered " and purgatory lasts as long as a twinkling of an eye it will be great indeed.

 

[fbl9]

Yes, my view is very similar to this, Eichelbaum.

I truly don’t know if there is a purgatory, but I am open to there being one. However, it is not a big deal to me either way. Let me briefly explain.

If we abide in Christ and have confessed our sins contritely prior to death, when we pass from this life into the next it will be like being strapped securely in a Roller Coaster at your local amusement park. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Regardless of what we believe about Purgatory, we will go where Christ determines we will go, whether it be straight to heaven or a detour through Purgatory. Whatever a Christian believes about Purgatory will be irrelevant at that point.

The best part of what I understand Catholicism teaches about Purgatory is that after our stay in Purgatory is over, it is on to heaven we go. If I understand correctly, once we get to Purgatory Jesus won’t change His mind and send us to the other place, praise God. The way I look at it, if Purgatory is where I am sent I will accept it willingly – knowing that my final home will be with the Lord in heaven.

That is the way I see it too, why stress about purgatory, and if Jesus intercede and says something like " I’ve got him covered " and purgatory lasts as long as a twinkling of an eye it will be great indeed.

Interesting. Why wait till the next life to accept it, why not in this life as well?

 

[Wannano]

Interesting. Why wait till the next life to accept it, why not in this life as well?

I think I understand your question. I see our earthly life as a purgatory of sorts in that down here we struggle with our flesh, each one of us with different aspects of the flesh according to our individual weakness. As we strive to live a holy life we face our weakness and if we are growing in our relationship to God we will overcome albeit sometimes slowly. I fail often but want to continue believing that I face no temptation that isn’t common to each human being, and that when tempted there is a way to overcome it if I allow the Holy Spirit to reign. Probably not many are perfect when they die but it gives me assurance to know that Jesus is able to present us faultless before God and that He does it with great joy! Jude 1:24.

 

[Tommy999]

I think I understand your question. I see our earthly life as a purgatory of sorts in that down here we struggle with our flesh, each one of us with different aspects of the flesh according to our individual weakness. As we strive to live a holy life we face our weakness and if we are growing in our relationship to God we will overcome albeit sometimes slowly. I fail often but want to continue believing that I face no temptation that isn’t common to each human being, and that when tempted there is a way to overcome it if I allow the Holy Spirit to reign. Probably not many are perfect when they die but it gives me assurance to know that Jesus is able to present us faultless before God and that He does it with great joy! Jude 1:24.

Whether there is a Purgatory after death or not will not affect the way I live my life because I will continue to press on toward the goal in Christ Jesus regardless and will continue to strive to love and serve the Lord with all my heart, soul, and mind – and love my neighbor as myself. Those things will not change and are more important to me than whether there is a purgatory or not after death.

If I knew Purgatory existed beyond the shadow of a doubt, the only difference it would make is that I would pray more for the souls of the deceased – just in case they went to Purgatory and are still there now.

By the way, I wonder how Catholics know when to quit praying for the repose of the souls of loved ones who passed away.

In other words, does the Holy Spirit give Catholics a sign as to when it is no longer needed to pray for the soul of Aunt Betty or do they keep praying for her for the rest of their earthly lives just in case? To me, that would seem like a lack of closure and a source of anxiety and would feed scrupulosity tendencies to have to keep praying for them over and over and over if you never know when they passed from Purgatory to heaven.

I tend to pray for people when they are alive and also pray for the repose of their soul when I find out they died (and at their funeral and burial), but after that I tend to remember them fondly in my thoughts and tell them I love and miss them when I visit their grave, but other than that I entrust their eternal destiny to God’s mercy and justice at that point.

 

[MT1926]

Whether there is a Purgatory after death or not will not affect the way I live my life because I will continue to press on toward the goal in Christ Jesus regardless and will continue to strive to love and serve the Lord with all my heart, soul, and mind – and love my neighbor as myself. Those things will not change and are more important to me than whether there is a purgatory or not after death.

Hey Tommy long time no speak. Thanks for joining the conversation. I agree with you here that it should not affect the way you live your life.
I have had many people think of purgatory as a negative place. Almost like a punishment. For some reason they say that the idea that one doesn’t have to spend time in Purgatory is a very freeing experience and makes one trust Jesus even more. Where as I am the exact opposite. Knowing that Jesus will cleanse me, of anything that I am not aware of, in Purgatory before the eternal feast is a freeing experience and makes me trust that he loves me even more. To me it helps me focus on the goal and know that he is there to pick me up when I stumble.

If I knew Purgatory existed beyond the shadow of a doubt, the only difference it would make is that I would pray more for the souls of the deceased – just in case they went to Purgatory and are still there now.

By the way, I wonder how Catholics know when to quit praying for the repose of the souls of loved ones who passed away.

In other words, does the Holy Spirit give Catholics a sign as to when it is no longer needed to pray for the soul of Aunt Betty or do they keep praying for her for the rest of their earthly lives just in case? To me, that would seem like a lack of closure and a source of anxiety and would feed scrupulosity tendencies to have to keep praying for them over and over and over if you never know when they passed from Purgatory to heaven.

I tend to pray for people when they are alive and also pray for the repose of their soul when I find out they died (and at their funeral and burial), but after that I tend to remember them fondly in my thoughts and tell them I love and miss them when I visit their grave, but other than that I entrust their eternal destiny to God’s mercy and justice at that point.

I would say just go ahead and pray for them. Jesus says to love thy neighbor. What better way to show it than by praying for them. I don’t think it should be a chore but if you are thinking about them how hard is it to add a pray?

As for the quit praying, I would say never. God is not bound by time as we are. Think about it this way. If a loved one dies today and 40 years from now you are remembering them fondly and decide to say “dear heavenly Father I pray that “so and so” is with you now in all of your Glory and has attained what I can only hope for. Amen” First off it was easy to do, you loved thy neighbor, and finally with all of God’s power can’t you agree that on this very day, when your loved one passed, he already heard the pray that you will say 40 years from now?

Along the same line of thinking, this just came into my head I do it all the time. What would be the sense of praying that you accomplished something, like passed a test, after you already took it?

Just some of my thoughts.

Take Care

God Bless

 

[Tommy999]

Hey Tommy long time no speak. Thanks for joining the conversation. I agree with you here that it should not affect the way you live your life.
I have had many people think of purgatory as a negative place. Almost like a punishment. For some reason they say that the idea that one doesn’t have to spend time in Purgatory is a very freeing experience and makes one trust Jesus even more. Where as I am the exact opposite. Knowing that Jesus will cleanse me, of anything that I am not aware of, in Purgatory before the eternal feast is a freeing experience and makes me trust that he loves me even more. To me it helps me focus on the goal and know that he is there to pick me up when I stumble.

I would say just go ahead and pray for them. Jesus says to love thy neighbor. What better way to show it than by praying for them. I don’t think it should be a chore but if you are thinking about them how hard is it to add a pray?

As for the quit praying, I would say never. God is not bound by time as we are. Think about it this way. If a loved one dies today and 40 years from now you are remembering them fondly and decide to say “dear heavenly Father I pray that “so and so” is with you now in all of your Glory and has attained what I can only hope for. Amen” First off it was easy to do, you loved thy neighbor, and finally with all of God’s power can’t you agree that on this very day, when your loved one passed, he already heard the pray that you will say 40 years from now?

Along the same line of thinking, this just came into my head I do it all the time. What would be the sense of praying that you accomplished something, like passed a test, after you already took it?

Just some of my thoughts.

Take Care

God Bless

Thanks, MT1926. I like your posts, too. I can tell you are a faithful Catholic Christian and someone who is reasonable to interact with.

As it is, I occasionally pray for the deceased person currently when I think about them. I was just wanting to know (from Catholics who do this regularly) if there is some indication or sign that the Holy Spirit gives you that a person has finally made it to heaven. It sounds like the answer may be ‘no’ and that you need to keep doing it. I currently just do it as the Lord places someone on my heart, not as some religious laundry list. I hope that is ok.

 

[Della]

Whether there is a Purgatory after death or not will not affect the way I live my life because I will continue to press on toward the goal in Christ Jesus regardless and will continue to strive to love and serve the Lord with all my heart, soul, and mind – and love my neighbor as myself. Those things will not change and are more important to me than whether there is a purgatory or not after death.

Well, knowing there’s a purgatory let’s us know that we can do something now about the effects our sins have on us and on the whole body of Christ by doing penance, of one kind or another. It’s not just about me and my sins, just as our relationship with God isn’t just about me and Jesus, but it involves the whole body of Christ as well as the greater world because the whole world needs us to make reparation for our sins, in both temporal and spiritual ways. So, it’s not just a matter of how it affects me, but how it affects everyone in my life, first of all, and then Christ’s body, the Church, and then all of humanity.

If I knew Purgatory existed beyond the shadow of a doubt, the only difference it would make is that I would pray more for the souls of the deceased – just in case they went to Purgatory and are still there now.

By the way, I wonder how Catholics know when to quit praying for the repose of the souls of loved ones who passed away.

In other words, does the Holy Spirit give Catholics a sign as to when it is no longer needed to pray for the soul of Aunt Betty or do they keep praying for her for the rest of their earthly lives just in case? To me, that would seem like a lack of closure and a source of anxiety and would feed scrupulosity tendencies to have to keep praying for them over and over and over if you never know when they passed from Purgatory to heaven.

I tend to pray for people when they are alive and also pray for the repose of their soul when I find out they died (and at their funeral and burial), but after that I tend to remember them fondly in my thoughts and tell them I love and miss them when I visit their grave, but other than that I entrust their eternal destiny to God’s mercy and justice at that point.

It is laudable to pray for our own beloved dead, of course. There’s no time limit on it since we will need to pray for them and for ourselves until we die. Catholics use “shortcuts” for praying for certain needs and intentions because prayer lists can become too much for any one person to sustain. We pray for the repose of the souls of all the departed in the Church’s official daily prayer, the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours). It is the last intention of Evening Prayer (Vespers). I am happy to pray this prayer every evening, adding my own family, friends, and those who may be in most need or my prayers–not all by name, but more by category. I never feel scrupulous because God knows my physical limitations, but he does sometimes prompt me to pray for a departed soul more than for others–not every day, but from time to time.

 

[MT1926]

Thanks, MT1926. I like your posts, too. I can tell you are a faithful Catholic Christian and someone who is reasonable to interact with.

As it is, I occasionally pray for the deceased person currently when I think about them. I was just wanting to know (from Catholics who do this regularly) if there is some indication or sign that the Holy Spirit gives you that a person has finally made it to heaven. It sounds like the answer may be ‘no’ and that you need to keep doing it. I currently just do it as the Lord places someone on my heart, not as some religious laundry list. I hope that is ok.

I agree with this. I don’t thing our Lord wants us reading off our daily laundry list. From the heart sounds so much better. That’s why God not being bound by time is so great. If we pray from our heart tomorrow he still hears it today.

 

[Whemsworth]

In a dialogue on another thread it was pointed out to me that I was being illogical when it comes to Purgatory.

I was told:
Here I request intellectual honesty.

*If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.

I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.*

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Basically I was hit with a bunch of questions with no explanations. Since the person I was speaking with was banned it left me with the question "Is Purgatory Illogical?"

After much prayer and study I have discovered that most people tend to get lost in the depth of what Purgatory is or isn’t. So instead of diving into the deep end I would like to try and keep this thread in the shallow end of the pool and discuss the following concept.

The logical case for Purgatory.

First the Bible clearly states that there will be neither sin nor an attachment to sin in heaven.

Second, we ,well me anyway, (I don’t want to judge others) are still presently sinning and will most likely still be attached to some sin at the end of this life.

The above 2 statements lead me to conclude that there must be a period between death and heaven in which we, the saved brothers and sisters of Christ, are cleansed of sin and/or our attachments to sin.

The only way I foresee getting around this logical conclusion is if one of the above 2 statements were untrue. However, I have found both statements, 1 and 2, to be Biblical.

Revelation 21:27 is clear that sin nor an attachment to sin can enter heaven.
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
As well as, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and

1 John 1:8 is clear that we are all sinners.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As i stated above I would appreciate if this thread doesn’t turn into an argument of the minute details of what Purgatory is or isn’t. The point of the thread which I really need an answer to is:

If nothing unclean can enter heaven and we are all sinners, if we do not undergo some sort of purification after death, how do we become clean after death to enter into heaven?

Purgatory is illogical, and was only brought about because St. Jerome mistranslated Metanoia (repentance) as “Do Penance.”

 

[Abu]

Whemsworth #52
Purgatory is illogical, and was only brought about because St. Jerome mistranslated Metanoia (repentance) as “Do Penance.”

False.

It is the solemn teaching of the Church that the souls of the just who have not fully discharged their debt to God’s justice are cleansed in Purgatory before being admitted to heaven. [Council of Trent, DS1580].

 

[MT1926]

Purgatory is illogical, and was only brought about because St. Jerome mistranslated Metanoia (repentance) as “Do Penance.”

Thanks for the response. Never heard this could you please send me some some info that speaks of this.

However, this doesn’t answer my original question. As I stated:

The logical case for Purgatory.

First the Bible clearly states that there will be neither sin nor an attachment to sin in heaven.

Second, we ,well me anyway, (I don’t want to judge others) are still presently sinning and will most likely still be attached to some sin at the end of this life.

The above 2 statements lead me to conclude that there must be a period between death and heaven in which we, the saved brothers and sisters of Christ, are cleansed of sin and/or our attachments to sin.

The only way I foresee getting around this logical conclusion is if one of the above 2 statements were untrue. However, I have found both statements, 1 and 2, to be Biblical.

Revelation 21:27 is clear that sin nor an attachment to sin can enter heaven.
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
As well as, Matthew 5:48 that speaks of the a loving God that wants us to be perfect.
48*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and

1 John 1:8 is clear that we are all sinners.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As i stated above I would appreciate if this thread doesn’t turn into an argument of the minute details of what Purgatory is or isn’t. The point of the thread which I really need an answer to is:

If nothing unclean can enter heaven and we are all sinners, if we do not undergo some sort of purification after death, how do we become clean after death to enter into heaven?

Based on my conclusion I don’t see how Metonia meaning “repentance” instead of “do penance” shows purgatory to be illogical. Whatever, the definition maybe doesn’t change the fact that nothing unclean can enter heaven. Maybe more information about St. Jerome can shine some more light on the subject.

Thanks

 

[Wesrock]

Purgatory is illogical, and was only brought about because St. Jerome mistranslated Metanoia (repentance) as “Do Penance.”

Except no, the teaching of needing to purge oneself of attachment to sin, before or after death, existed before Jerome’s translation.

 

[Duane1966]

Purgatory is illogical, and was only brought about because St. Jerome mistranslated Metanoia (repentance) as “Do Penance.”

So all the church fathers who lived before Jerome did not believe in Purgatory?

You know they have found prayers for the dead in the catacombs, dating to the first century?

On one on the tombstones of the catacombs, now in the Lateran Museum, a husband declares that he set this inscription for his beloved wife Lucifera " in order that all brethren who read it may pray for her, that she may reach God."

Perhaps this got mistranslated also.