Is Purgatory in the Bible?

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Gabriel_Serafin said:
Obviously there will be no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But one needs to understand what it mean to be in Christ, and to realize that one ceases to be in Christ when He reject’s God’s grace, through willful mortal sin. Thus Paul warned:

“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22)

Sure, absolutely. Yet you still have free will to reject grace. There are people who know and believe that smoking is unhealthy and bad for their lungs and may cause cancer, yet they still choose to smoke. Your heart may be filled with anger, pride and un-forgiveness; and no amount of belief is going to save you if you do not repent and uproot those sentiments from your heart. Thus Jesus warned:

*But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. * Matt.5:22

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Paul frequently admonished Christians about not falling into sin or even to associate with self-proclaimed Christians who lived immoral lives: * I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.*

Jesus Himself, when directly asked what one must do to be saved, said: If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Matt. 19:17

Yes, and continuing in the faith means at least keeping the commandments as Jesus told the young rich man in Matt. 19:17. Having faith requires a person to put it into action. Earlier you were claiming that we weren’t bound by the 10 commandments. James was addressing people who were teaching exactly what you are claiming, that faith alone saves. Now read what James had to say to them:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

*Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). *

*“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21) *

Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism Col. 2:11-12

*Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:3-4) *

Again, only with those who choose to respond to God’s grace every day, getting back up when they fall, persevering until the end of their life will be saved: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him… 1 John 2:4

If your heart is full of envy, lust, pride, un-forgiveness, and you’re a glutton, dishonest, make idols out of things and people, and do not love your neighbor, then all the faith in the world is not going to save you: *If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. *

There are people who go through life, claiming that they love God, and that they are saved, claiming they are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, thinking they are going straight to heaven when they die, and even use their limited and erroneous knowledge of the Bible to condemn, accuse and slander others of going to hell. But Scripture is clear:
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 1 John 4:20
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You, my friend, are still under the law. You must pray that God will show you what it means to be justified and cleansed from all sin, not because of your works or promises, but because of the blood Christ, shed ONCE FOR ALL. I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is “imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me, who am “protected by the power of God through faith.”-- I Peter 1:4,5
 
Bodyandblood999 said:
You, my friend, are still under the law. You must pray that God will show you what it means to be justified and cleansed from all sin, not because of your works or promises, but because of the blood Christ, shed ONCE FOR ALL. I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is “imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me, who am “protected by the power of God through faith.”-- I Peter 1:4,5
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Correct. When God chose you and your old man was crucified with Christ, nothing was left to be condemned, and all possibilities were already anticipate. That is why grace is AMAZING.
 
Bodyandblood999 said:
You, my friend, are still under the law. You must pray that God will show you what it means to be justified and cleansed from all sin, not because of your works or promises, but because of the blood Christ, shed ONCE FOR ALL. I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is “imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me, who am “protected by the power of God through faith.”-- I Peter 1:4,5
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The law that you refer to is the law of sacrifices. There is still LAW. That is the 10 commandments. You are not free from that law. You are obliged to keep it as a follower of Jesus Christ. If you break that law that is sin my friend. Are you suggesting that you are not under this law?

There is only ONE sacrifice, but that sacrifice needs to be applied. Every time I sin and am repentant of that sin the ONE time sacrifice gets applied to my life. Otherwise all my sins were forgiven me before I was born, and I would probably be truly happy in such a state.

God’s promises are sure, you are correct on that. But they are also conditional, conditional on us. It requires continuing to the end.
 
Darryl_B said:
The law that you refer to is the law of sacrifices. There is still LAW. That is the 10 commandments. You are not free from that law. You are obliged to keep it as a follower of Jesus Christ. If you break that law that is sin my friend. Are you suggesting that you are not under this law?

There is only ONE sacrifice, but that sacrifice needs to be applied. Every time I sin and am repentant of that sin the ONE time sacrifice gets applied to my life. Otherwise all my sins were forgiven me before I was born, and I would probably be truly happy in such a state.

God’s promises are sure, you are correct on that. But they are also conditional, conditional on us. It requires continuing to the end.
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I have heard That comment about what kind of law we are no longer under. And it simply does not match with scripture. I can understand why you would try to make that argument, because the reality of not being under the law if, we are talking about the entire law, is a problem for Roman Catholicism. But it is time for you to face the music. Notice what Paul says in Romans seven about what kind of law we are not under. Notice what he says about the law that tripped him up. Does he talk about some sacrificial law? Absolutely not! What he says he had a problem with was the command not to covet. You know as well as I do where that comes from. It comes from the 10 Commandments. That is the law that Jesus set us free from and for which He gave us not only cleansing and justification but a new heart so that we now have the power to keep all of the law, even though if we fail to measure up, we are still free, because yes, we are no longer under the law! So you need to find a new argument to refute what Paul says about Christians not being under the law anymore!
 
Bodyandblood999 said:
I have heard That comment about what kind of law we are no longer under. And it simply does not match with scripture. I can understand why you would try to make that argument, because the reality of not being under the law if, we are talking about the entire law, is a problem for Roman Catholicism. But it is time for you to face the music. Notice what Paul says in Romans seven about what kind of law we are not under. Notice what he says about the law that tripped him up. Does he talk about some sacrificial law? Absolutely not! What he says he had a problem with was the command not to covet. You know as well as I do where that comes from. It comes from the 10 Commandments. That is the law that Jesus set us free from and for which He gave us not only cleansing and justification but a new heart so that we now have the power to keep all of the law, even though if we fail to measure up, we are still free, because yes, we are no longer under the law! So you need to find a new argument to refute what Paul says about Christians not being under the law anymore!
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In yet in the Beatitudes Jesus Christ reinforced the Law, and he also fulfilled the Law (made it complete) and reiterated it with love Lord God and neighbour as self of which the entire law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. The Law hasn’t been done away with it has been made complete.

So what was the requirement under the Law for breaking the Commandments? Sacrifice of animals. We don’t sacrifice animals for breaking the Law, and that is where grace comes into effect through repentance from breaking the Law. Law, sin, repent, grace. That is amazing.

You are not free from the Commandments (Law) you are free from the requirements as a consequence of breaking that Law.
 
Bodyandblood999 said:
You have to feel profoundly sad for them–being led to believe that they will get their sins burned off after they die. They don’t realize true saving faith in Christ ALONE is the only hope they have of being justified and adopted into God’s family. My church is full of former Catholics who fled because there was no life there, just dry religion.
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Okay. This seems borderline inappropriate for CAF. It’s starting to sound like proselytizing. (And Catholic bashing)

Also, to all your comments about not being bound by the Law any more– So I take it you don’t follow the Ten Commandments, since you consider yourself above any of God’s Law?
 
Cachonga said:
I don’t find Purgatory anywhere in the Scriptures. Even Catholics will admit (if they’re honest) that the Scriptures they point to are “indications”, not “proofs” of the doctrine.
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Um, Protestants, if they are honest, will admit that God entrusted the care and feeding of His flock, not to a book (the Bible) but to a man (Saint Peter.)

So, it is the Church, and not the private individual, who determines the meaning of Scripture.
 
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Love4All:
Um, Protestants, if they are honest, will admit that God entrusted the care and feeding of His flock, not to a book (the Bible) but to a man (Saint Peter.)
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Jesus (and Paul, Timothy, and others in the early Church) entrusted the care and feeding of the flock to faithful men, And do you believe the Scriptures are God-breathed (inspired)? If so, then why do you think God bothered to have the New Testament written? You don’t have to answer, since it’s off topic, but just think about it.
So, it is the Church, and not the private individual, who determines the meaning of Scripture.
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Any true Christian will recognize the authority of the Church. Again, this is not on topic, so I’ll stop here.
 
Apart from Maccabees mentioning the efficacy of praying for the dead, there also seems to be New Testament authority from St. Paul:

The following article, from The Catholic Encyclopedia (online) appears to present an authoritative position regarding the matter.

“In his Second Epistle to Timothy (i, 16-18; iv, 19) St. Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in a way that seems obviously to imply that the latter was already dead: ‘The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus’ — as to a family in need of consolation. Then, after mention of loyal services rendered by him to the imprisoned Apostle at Rome, comes the prayer for Onesiphorus himself, ‘The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day’ (the day of judgment); finally, in the salutation, ‘the household of Onesiphorus’ is mentioned once more, without mention of the man himself. The question is, what had become of him? Was he dead, as one would naturally infer from what St. Paul writes? Or had he for any other cause become separated permanently from his family, so that prayer for them should take account of present needs while prayers for him looked forward to the day of judgment? Or could it be that he was still at Rome when the Apostle wrote, or gone elsewhere for a prolonged absence from home? The first is by far the easiest and most natural hypothesis; and if it be admitted, we have here an instance of prayer by the Apostle for the soul of a deceased benefactor”
 
Mount Carmel:
Apart from Maccabees mentioning the efficacy of praying for the dead, there also seems to be New Testament authority from St. Paul:
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I don’t recall where the offering was said to be efficacious. In fact, as I mentioned in a previous post, a Catholic Priest specifically said it didn’t matter if it was efficacious or not. Could you please give the specific reference for this assertion?
The following article, from The Catholic Encyclopedia (online) appears to present an authoritative position regarding the matter.
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<and following …>
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It should be noted (for the benefit of those who do not, or will not, bother to look up the Scripture reference) that “(the day of judgment)" does not appear in this verse. I don’t see anything that would indicate Paul was praying that he be released from temporal punishment (no mention of punishment of any kind). Furthermore, there is nothing that indicates a change in location prior to “that day”. I would ask, whatever day this is (judgment, resurrection, Taco Tuesday, whatever), does the Catholic Church teach that people are in purgatory from the time they die until “that day”? If not, how is this an “indication” of purgatory?

BTW - I don’t really see that Onesiphorus would have to be dead for this to make sense. He could be assisting Christians in other locations (like Rome, Ephesus, etc…), or could even be in prison somewhere. That’s not to say he couldn’t be dead, but that’s not the only way this can be read. Since the Scriptures don’t tell us that he was dead, it seems a bit presumptuous to me to say that is how it is to be understood.
 
Cachonga:

The chief Old Testament verse that indicates the necessity of purgation after death (and thus implies a place or state where such purgation takes place—hence the name Purgatory) is

2 Maccabees 12:46:
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

If everyone who dies goes immediately to Heaven or to Hell, then this verse would be nonsense. Those who are in Heaven have no need of prayer, “that they may be loosed from sins”; those who are in Hell are unable to benefit from such prayers, because there is no escape from Hell—damnation is eternal.

ps. Given that most all folks are not spiritually ‘stainless’ when they die, and stainlessness is a requirement of placement in Heaven, then without a purging place of atonement either all folks get an automatic pass to Heaven by dint of Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, or most all of us folks are going to Hell, {In which case Jesus’ life, death and resurrection would be largely a waste of time.] :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:
 
Cachonga said:
Jesus (and Paul, Timothy, and others in the early Church) entrusted the care and feeding of the flock to faithful men, And do you believe the Scriptures are God-breathed (inspired)? If so, then why do you think God bothered to have the New Testament written? You don’t have to answer, since it’s off topic, but just think about it.

Any true Christian will recognize the authority of the Church. Again, this is not on topic, so I’ll stop here.
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Then I would suggest that you stop giving off topic replies. Or do you give a reply…you know it is off topic…and you do not want to deal with the responses to your reply?..🤷
 
Bodyandblood999 said:
I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is “imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me, who am “protected by the power of God through faith.”-- I Peter 1:4,5
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Yes, this is all well and good. It doesn’t take away from the fact that Jesus said you must keep the commandments, carry your daily cross, and keep watch lest you fall away… “the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise…‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’”–Matt. 25:1-13
 
Bodyandblood999 said:
I have heard That comment about what kind of law we are no longer under. !
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I don’t understand your argument. Your provile indicates that you are agnostic or athiest having as you inidcate that you dont subscribe to any faith. Why is an athiest or agnostic arguing on this issue?
 
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