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Bodyandblood999
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It is inventing things that are not stated by the Holy Spirit in sacred scripture that gets human institutions into trouble. Regarding whether I am ready for heaven right now, the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed me from EVERY sin, according to God’s word, in many places, including Hebrews 10:14, which states, “For by ONE OFFERING He has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are sanctified.” That is a reference to the marvelous salvation that is the present inheritance and state of every person who has experienced the new birth through faith in the FINISHED work of the cross!
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pablope
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Denimguy
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Ok,
There are a bunch of topics here that are being brought up,
Purgatory
Deutorocanonicals
How we are Saved
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition
You may want to address each one of these topics fully before proceeding to the next.
The word “Trinity” is not found in Sacred Scripture, however, the concept of a triune God is accepted by most Christians.
There are a bunch of topics here that are being brought up,
Purgatory
Deutorocanonicals
How we are Saved
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition
You may want to address each one of these topics fully before proceeding to the next.
The word “Trinity” is not found in Sacred Scripture, however, the concept of a triune God is accepted by most Christians.
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Razanir
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As denimguy pointed out, the Trinity is also not explicitly stated in Scripture. So should we all become Jehovah’s Witnesses since they “know” the Trinity is fake?
(Read that last part sarcastically)
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Cachonga
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Would these be the same Jews who thought the Corban rule (which Jesus showed from Scripture was a tradition of men) was from Moses?
Would these be the same Jews who thought the Corban rule (which Jesus showed from Scripture was a tradition of men) was from Moses?
Would these be the same Jews who rejected the Corban rule (and other traditions of men) in favor of what Jesus and the Holy Spirit taught?
These verses only mention him learning (or being taught) from the Scriptures, unless you have a version that shows he was taught from Tradition (and please explain what “traditions” he would have been taught, since he was most likely an infant before the NT was written). I must add, it sounds like you don’t think Scripture can be taught orally. Of course, this is completely off topic, so don’t bother answering on this thread
Why are you (and others) diverting the topic? The topic is “Is Purgatory in the Bible?” Please stay on topic if you want any serious discussion!
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pablope
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Okay…so why do you believe purgatory or the process of purgation or cleansing is not in the Bible?
What is your basis?
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Cachonga
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As I pointed out in my first post, even the Catholic Church agrees that the Scriptures it points to are only “indications”, not “proofs” of the doctrine. When I examine the Scriptures in question, I find the only way they can “indicate” Purgatory is if I ignore the context in which the Scriptures are found. I don’t see any reason why I should ignore context in order to see some doctrine that has not been shown clearly in Scripture. That is my basis for denying the doctrine (in relation to the topic).
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Bodyandblood999
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pablope
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By the way, the CC does not prove its doctrines from Scripture…for it was written and compiled for the Catholic Church…its teachings and doctrines are reflected in Scripture, for these where whole before any NT was ever written.
Okay…so you decided for yourself…hence my question…are you really the authority to determine what is doctrine and not in relation to Scripture?
So, do you think you understand Scripture better than Scott Hahn’s explanation of several Biblical indicators of purgatory? (catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html)
Do you think the Holy Spirit is guiding you differently and more to the truth than Scott Hahn is?
And what context are you talking about? Context according to whom?
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pablope
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Darryl_B
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To enter paradise one needs to get past the flaming sword.
Suggested in 1 Cor 3:15 and surrounding context.
Suggested in 1 Cor 3:15 and surrounding context.
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Gabriel_Serafin
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I would recommend studying the many verses in the Bible which speak about Purgatory. But, just as you will not find the word Trinity in the Bible, you will also not find the word “Purgatory”, but the teaching is there nonetheless. In a nutshell, Purgatory simply means purification, and it is for souls who die in God’s grace and have repented of all their sins and have been forgiven, but have yet to make reparation for sins committed after baptism.
Jesus Himself warns:
*"…the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, **you will not get out until you have paid **the last penny."–Matt. 5:25
*
"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.* "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you *unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." --Matt. 18:32-35
Paul speaks about purgatory here: *"If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though **ONLY *as one ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES. 1 Cor. 3:11-15
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, ***“be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” ***We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
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Bodyandblood999
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Sorry, Hebrews says, “It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement.”
And these verses seem crystal clear that there is no need for futher cleansing when it comes to our standing and salvation. But Jesus said few would find the way to life, so most will not see the truth of the FINIISHED work on the cross, and will never be saved:
“First he [Jesus] said, ‘Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them’ (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, ‘Here I am, I have come to do your will.’ He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we HAVE BEEN made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
”…nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds:
‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.”
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Bodyandblood999
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I Cor 3 is not talking at all about someone being burned. He is using a metaphor about what we build with our life and service, and about rewards, not punishment. What we “build” in this life will be examined just like gold is examined with fire. The things that born again people have done through faith in Christ will produce eternal reward. All the rest will be burned up, but God’s child, of course, will be save. Notice it doesn’t say they will be saved THROUGH fire, but “AS ONE”…
The Greek is better represented in the New American Standard Bible: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so AS through fire.”
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QNDNNDQDCE
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A few quick points/questions.
I think what you mean is that purgatory would count as an additional judgment so it would be impossible for St. Paul to speak of “the judgment.” However, everyone agrees there are two discrete acts of judgment anyway, the particular and the general, which are really just different declarations of the same judgment. Secondly, the concept of purgatory corresponds well with the image from Matthew because after the sentence is pronounced (particular judgment), the prisoner serves the sentence (purgatory) and after he has done his time, is released from prison.
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Here we see Paul speaking of the possibility of damnation even for those who have been sanctified. If this is the case, I have a hard time seeing how Hebrews 10:14 can be a proof of eternal security.
There is no need to apologize. This has no bearing on the existence of Purgatory. Does the existence of Purgatory contradict that men die once or that there is a judgment following death? Or do you mean that all there is after death for the human soul is eternal judgment so Purgatory (along with the beatific vision) is excluded?
I think what you mean is that purgatory would count as an additional judgment so it would be impossible for St. Paul to speak of “the judgment.” However, everyone agrees there are two discrete acts of judgment anyway, the particular and the general, which are really just different declarations of the same judgment. Secondly, the concept of purgatory corresponds well with the image from Matthew because after the sentence is pronounced (particular judgment), the prisoner serves the sentence (purgatory) and after he has done his time, is released from prison.
This is not a proof of the doctrine of “imputed righteousness.” It is easy enough to say that God forgives only sins that have been committed. After all, future sins, because they are future, do not exist yet, and how can something be forgiven when it doesn’t even exist? St. Paul says also in Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Here we see Paul speaking of the possibility of damnation even for those who have been sanctified. If this is the case, I have a hard time seeing how Hebrews 10:14 can be a proof of eternal security.
I do not think St. Paul’s image of fire fits as well with your explanation as if he is speaking of purgatory. He says in v. 15 that, “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss.” If this is merely a metaphor for the judgment of the Christian’s deeds, then it is hard to see how he is suffering a loss other than the loss of pride over one’s earthly works. If this is reference to purgatory, then we can take it to be speaking of a burning up of remaining earthly attachments like the burning up of someone’s material possessions in a house fire.
Does the word “as” always indicate that a statement is intended only as pure metaphor? John 1:14 reads: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Does this mean that Jesus not actually the only Son from the Father, but only metaphorically speaking?
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Darryl_B
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I think you are doing a little eisegesis here.
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telement10
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There is no purgatory.
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pablope
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sousley
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This is from St. Thomas Aquinas
Now a man’s work is said to burn in two ways: in one way on the part of the worker, inasmuch as he is afflicted by the fire of tribulation on account of the immoderate attachment he has to earthly things and by the fire of purgatory or by the fire which goes before the face of the judge on account of venial sins, which he committed by caring for temporal things or even by the frivolous and vain things he taught. In another way a work burns in the fire on the part of the work itself, because when tribulation comes, a person cannot find time for foolish teaching or worldly works: “On that day all his plans perish” (Ps 146:4). Furthermore, the fire of purgatory or the fire which goes before the face of the judge will not leave any of these things to act as a remedy or as merit. Similarly, he suffers a loss in two ways: either because he is punished or because he loses what he accomplished. On this point Sirach (14:19): “Every product decays and ceases to exist, and the man who made it will pass away with it. And every excellent work shall be justified; and the worker thereof shall be honored therein.” The first of these refers to the person who erects wood, hay and stubble, which is the work that burns in the fire; but the second refers to the person who erects gold, silver and precious stones, which is the work that abides in the fire without any loss.
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